subtle bullying in church?

quitespirit · Apr 18, 2013

TravelerFarAwayFromHome said:
you know, it is clearly a mistake to post something like this here.

I am getting the mod to close this.

I heard enough garbages for one day

and I have plenty of assignments I need to complete over weekend.

I don't have time for this.

What is garbage? I asked for clarification of why you say contradictory things. This is your thread, under the label of 'seeking help'. I assume you actually want advice. Or are you just here to vent or find someone to say what you want to hear?

If Not For Grace · Apr 18, 2013

Identifying one's self as a Christian requires no modifier. I am not a female Christian, a white Christian nor a fundamental Christian..When we add anything to the title Christian we invite controversy and that is not what Christianity is about.

TravelerFarAwayFromHome · Apr 18, 2013

quitespirit said:
To say you want to please God with your sexuality, by forsaking your homosexual thoughts and desires, and then to turn around and demand to be accepted and recognized as a gay Christian is contradictory. Do you want to be gay? You don't act on your urges. You don't want to act on this temptation but want others to embrace you under a title of a sinful lifestyle? I imagine both you and those you make these statements to are both confused.

The stance that would make sense to me is this: You are a Christian. We all struggle with sin. I want to drink and be drunk. I may think on it, but I know it is sin to be drunk, so I don't. I do not call myself a drunk Christian. I want to have premarital sex. It's a sin, so I am waiting for marriage. I do not call myself a fornicating Christian. We are NOT defined by our past sin or our present repentance. We should walk in victory.

The fact that we struggle with sin as believers is a given. it's why Jesus died. We are not chained by our sin. We do not claim our sin as our title. You are a Christian. Identifying yourself by your sinful desires is edifying to NO ONE. It makes no sense. What is your point in doing so?

When you are in a context that it serves a purpose to edify or seek help it is fine to discuss your struggles with homosexuality. But just like fornication and drunkeness- if we forsake our sin we have no reason to wear that label as if it's some badge of honor, pride, or bondage.

let put this way, I WILL identify myself as a GAY Christian.

edify no one?

by identify myself as a GAY Christian, it is GOOD thing, as it could help correct the ignorant stereotype in church that many has, who thinks gay Christians have to be ones that are fake, that don't obey what God actually says, so you see, I AM edifying other by letting them know a person can be gay and a real Christian

I am edifying people ignorance and judgementality.

quitespirit · Apr 18, 2013

Golly. I think I see where you are coming from. So you are gay, you believe it's ok with God, but not if you live a gay lifestyle? What are you proving? That you can have gay desires but be saved if you don't act on them?

TravelerFarAwayFromHome · Apr 18, 2013

quitespirit said:
Golly. I think I see where you are coming from. So you are gay, you believe it's ok with God, but not if you live a gay lifestyle? What are you proving? That you can have gay desires but be saved if you don't act on them?

I am not trying to prove anything

are you?

I was merely responding to your post, that ALL I was doing?

quitespirit · Apr 18, 2013

TravelerFarAwayFromHome said:
I am not trying to prove anything

I AM edifying other by letting them know a person can be gay and a real Christian

This statement is what I mean about proving something. I'm not taking about proving anything to the forum. The topic is your church experience, and that is what I am referring to....

So you call yourself a gay Christian to raise awareness that you can have gay thoughts and be obedient to Christ? Is that where you are coming from?

aiki · Apr 18, 2013

If you were to tell me that you were gay, my answer to you would be "so?".

It is only Jesus who saves, not me, not others, not our sexual orientation, actions, nor righteous works, or whatever else.

Only Jesus.

But Jesus saves us from certain things unto certain other things, does he not? He saves us from the penalty and power of sin unto a life of holy fellowship with himself. In light of this, it seems to me a strange response to a person's declaration that they are a gay to simply say, "So?" If they are not saved from that sin (and all others) unto a life in Christ, they will find themselves one day before God's Judgment Seat condemned and destined for hell!

If it gives you peace to call yourself gay then do so, if it gives you peace to not mention the fact then do so. God called us to peace.

More than peace, we are called unto righteousness and holiness. "Be you holy as I am holy," God commands.

And to those who are quick to judge... Look at James 4:11:

11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Who are we indeed to judge our neighbour? We are little nobodies who pretend to be somebodies.

Hang on a sec! Does what you're saying here line up with the rest of Scripture? I'm thinking in particular of 1 Corinthians 5. How do you reconcile what you say above with what the apostle does and commands of the Corinthian Christians in the chapter?

Don't we realize we are less than nothing without Christ?

And with him what are we? I recall Paul saying something about believers being "joint-heirs with Christ." (Ro 8:16, 17)

You are a person and if you are in Christ then that is the only thing that matters - not my opinion nor anyone else's.

Is what you've just written here your opinion? If it is, then it doesn't matter, right, and we can ignore everything you've just written?

I just don't see anywhere in Scripture where what you've said here is supported. What I do see are very many truths that are more or less equal in importance and vital to walking rightly with God.

And if anyone here can give me bible verses that says being a homosexual is sin (without the homosexual acts or lustful thoughts), please do so because I have been curious where in the bible you see it, coz I have'nt seen it. Now, I am not asking for your opinion, I want verses please. I want to read it myself.

How can one act without thought? The latter always precedes the former. One cannot act homosexually without the thought to do so. The Bible doesn't have to state this for it to be true any more than it has to state that gravity is true for it to be so.

Selah.

Eric Hibbert · Apr 18, 2013

TravelerFarAwayFromHome said:
being tempted without given in is not a sin

I am sorry to hear you think I need to repent for that

I'm sorry to hear that you didn't even bother to read my post.

but you know, I know my scriputure.

Then you know that in 1 Cor 6:9, Paul says that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God, and then, in v 11, he addresses those homosexuals who have repented and been washed, sanctified, and justified, and talks about their homosexuality in the past tense, not that they were currently homosexuals who were celibate or "just fighting temptation". He didn't say to the homosexuals in his audience, "such are some of you", but "such were some of you". Past tense. They repented of their sins and their identity changed from being homosexuals to saints (v 1).

and I stand 100% by what I says.

I'm sure you do. And I'm sorry to hear that.

OntheHorizon · Apr 18, 2013

TravelerFarAwayFromHome said:
sorry, let say you are a gay Christian, and some of your fellow Christian knows that, and they keep saying things that make you feel uncomfortable, such as it is wrong for you keep saying you are gay Christian, because as Christians, they insist by saying you are a gay Christian, you are identify with your sinful nature, and that they believe you chose to be this way, and the fact you are still is gay is a sign that you are actively indulge your mind ( they make it sounds like you are actively checking other guys out, as if you walked in the room, you are thinking to yourself, well, I wonder who is the cutest guy in the room????)

and they went on insist because of that, you are not qualified to entre certain ministry in the church because you are still gay and it is a sign you are not trying your best?

I often find such assertions incredibly hurtful, because I am not sinning, why cant they just leave me alone? Not only that, they have to resort twisting scripture to discriminate me from serving in some capacity in church.

And you know, this forum is no different, you constantly see users who spewing out this kind of garbage and try to hide behind the fact they are merely stating an opinion, and you see moderators agrees with them?

I could never understand why such hurtful non biblical speech is allowed within Christian community at all?

Don't get wrong, many straight Christians don't agree with this kind garbage that essentially condemns the other person for their sinful nature which they can do nothing about, but maybe because they are never on the receiving end of it, they don't understand how hurtful it can be, so they just say nothing.

I guess I am writing this because I have had enough of having to deal with this kind bullying from some of my fellow Christians, and I want to get it off my chest.

And I guess I also want to let those of you who agree that a person should not be condemns for their sinful nature, to understand what it is like to have to deal with this kind of crap on the first person basis, and when you see this kind of behaviour next time, maybe you can stand up and say something, make your voice heard, because the reality is a bully always thrives in an environment when no one chose to confront them.

what I am saying is if you do not agree with this view, that you need to understands this view is not merely a view , but a view that hurt others, and you need actively doing something about it.

This applies to this forums as well...

This applies to gay non believers too, if church have enough grace to extends to straight non believers, and allow them to attend church and allow God to touch their heart in His own time, the same grace should be extended to gay non believers, not trying to set some of time line for them to repent in our time, not Gods time.

It is like this youtube video I have seen, where this preacher talking about generally church have no problem with straight non believer couples holding hands in church, but when it comes to gay non believers, all hell broke loose, why is that?

I think you're right. I think what you need to learn is that wisdom doesn't benefit you if you lack the courage to follow through with it. If you are good and wise enough to perceive this... then you have to have the courage to follow through with what you see and know.

Having wisdom is useless if you lack the courage to follow through with it. Be strong. You don't need their acceptance and looking at the current culture I don't think you're going to find much of it.

OntheHorizon · Apr 18, 2013

Traveler

Regardless of what those people think or do you have the ability to keep this issue open or closed in your heart. Just do what you know is right, always do what you believe courageously and you'll be fine.

OntheHorizon · Apr 18, 2013

Traveler

you know, it is clearly a mistake to post something like this here.

I am getting the mod to close this.

I heard enough garbages for one day

and I have plenty of assignments I need to complete over weekend.

I don't have time for this.

Then put this issue away, you know you what you're doing, you aren't going to change these people man. It should be enough that you know that you're doing the right thing.

scrofford · Apr 18, 2013

TravelerFarAwayFromHome said:
sorry, let say you are a gay Christian, and some of your fellow Christian knows that, and they keep saying things that make you feel uncomfortable, such as it is wrong for you keep saying you are gay Christian, because as Christians, they insist by saying you are a gay Christian, you are identify with your sinful nature, and that they believe you chose to be this way, and the fact you are still is gay is a sign that you are actively indulge your mind ( they make it sounds like you are actively checking other guys out, as if you walked in the room, you are thinking to yourself, well, I wonder who is the cutest guy in the room????)

and they went on insist because of that, you are not qualified to entre certain ministry in the church because you are still gay and it is a sign you are not trying your best?

I often find such assertions incredibly hurtful, because I am not sinning, why cant they just leave me alone? Not only that, they have to resort twisting scripture to discriminate me from serving in some capacity in church.

And you know, this forum is no different, you constantly see users who spewing out this kind of garbage and try to hide behind the fact they are merely stating an opinion, and you see moderators agrees with them?

I could never understand why such hurtful non biblical speech is allowed within Christian community at all?

Don't get wrong, many straight Christians don't agree with this kind garbage that essentially condemns the other person for their sinful nature which they can do nothing about, but maybe because they are never on the receiving end of it, they don't understand how hurtful it can be, so they just say nothing.

I guess I am writing this because I have had enough of having to deal with this kind bullying from some of my fellow Christians, and I want to get it off my chest.

And I guess I also want to let those of you who agree that a person should not be condemns for their sinful nature, to understand what it is like to have to deal with this kind of crap on the first person basis, and when you see this kind of behaviour next time, maybe you can stand up and say something, make your voice heard, because the reality is a bully always thrives in an environment when no one chose to confront them.

what I am saying is if you do not agree with this view, that you need to understands this view is not merely a view , but a view that hurt others, and you need actively doing something about it.

This applies to this forums as well...

This applies to gay non believers too, if church have enough grace to extends to straight non believers, and allow them to attend church and allow God to touch their heart in His own time, the same grace should be extended to gay non believers, not trying to set some of time line for them to repent in our time, not Gods time.

It is like this youtube video I have seen, where this preacher talking about generally church have no problem with straight non believer couples holding hands in church, but when it comes to gay non believers, all hell broke loose, why is that?

I don't care what anyone else's opinion here is....If you are gay, you are NOT a Christian. And what I mean by that is if you are living a full blown gay lifestyle and calling yourself a Christian on top of it. I'm sorry, but the Word of God is very clear about this. If you want to argue this point, then go to the Bible and see what it says.

Now this is not to say that God doesn't love you because He does. But you must repent from that lifestyle and live according to the Word of God. I really don't understand how this subject is so clear in both the Old and New Testaments, and yet a lot of people seem to think it's okay to continue in this kind of lifestyle.

I really suggest you read and understand the Bible and learn what it's saying about homosexuality. It's a sin. It's a sin just like lying, adultery, hate, and every other sin that is talked about in the Bible.

We all have a sinful nature, but Jesus tells us to come out from that nature and live holy. Be holy for I am holy says the Lord. So no matter whether someone thinks they are born gay or not or whatever, the fact of the matter is that God says it's wrong, and if He says it's wrong, He will give you the power to come out of it.

I realize that I will probably get flamed for all that I've said, but like I said, it's very clear both in the Old and New Testament. Read it all for yourself. So if you live according to the Word of God then you won't have this problem. If you truly want to be a follower of Christ, then you have to repent from your sin and live for God.

TheDag · Apr 18, 2013

sunshine456 said:
I am sorry, but as a true Christian I cannot sugar coat it, and we cannot condone the act of homosexuality. It is clearly stated it is an abomination and detestable in the eyes of GOD the heavenly father. That behavior is unacceptable in in the congregation of Christians.

But among you there must not be even a hint .... or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for Gods holy people.

Now read this verse again and see if you can see where Traveler has a problem. I removed one phrase which does not in any way change the meaning. Other people in the church are sinning. If they are not being treated the same way and being excluded from certain ministries then the church is engaging in bullying because they are being like the Pharisees and only enforcing things that they want to and ignoring other parts of scripture. If someone gossips they should be excluded until they repent yet I have only ever once seen a church sort of deal with it. I say sort of because during a time for announcements a guy got up and told people to stop talking to him about a problem with other people but to talk to the person they had a problem with. So it was not church leadership taking action but one individual. Gossip is way more damaging to a church than sexual sin of an individual. Yet the church in general has this unhealthy obsession with sexual sin. My guess is that this is because sexual sin can be easy to avoid for a lot of people but things like gossip is not easy to avoid. Or in other words it is a way that people can feel good about themselves and think hey I'm not doing that bad while denying reality.

TheDag · Apr 18, 2013

aiki said:
The idea that one can be a believer forever afflicted with an "orientation" toward homosexuality is, then, not in accord with God's Word.

Traveler do not believe this as it is unscriptural. Paul had a thorn in his flesh that he pleaded with God to remove and God just said "My grace is sufficient for you" and it was not removed. Just like we are both perfect right now and not perfect at the same time we also have overcome all affliction and still face affliction at the same time.

TheDag · Apr 18, 2013

aiki said:
False.

Matthew 5:28
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Actuall that would match his description of giving in to sin wouldn't it. Looking at someone and saying/thinking they are attractive is not a sin according to this verse you quoted. Looking at someone and thinking I would love to get them into bed is a sin according to this verse. Lusting means to earnestly desire. We know this because the bible tells us that Jesus lusted to share the Passover with his disciples. In English translations it isn't clear but in the original language the word translated into lust and earnestly desire is the same word. So despite you saying false you have actually just agreed with traveller.

GenetoJean · Apr 18, 2013

If Not For Grace said:
Identifying one's self as a Christian requires no modifier. I am not a female Christian, a white Christian nor a fundamental Christian..When we add anything to the title Christian we invite controversy and that is not what Christianity is about.

This

OntheHorizon · Apr 18, 2013

Traveler,

Remember that Jesus's own people rejected him too, the scholars and the teachers loved him as a child and they couldn't stand his new ideas when he grew up. His own mother and family came and tried to get him and settle him down at one point.

People will love you and even shout over you as you grow and prosper but those who forbid you come to any new conclusions are not your friends, your sincerity and honesty and goodness should be enough to earn their love and respect even when they disagree. But Jesus' new ideas got him cast out too. True friends will try to help you see the errors of your ways but they will also appreciate your sincere disagreements and respect you for it and they will always have an amount of support to offer in addition to that honest disagreement.

James said that Godly wisdom is always open to reason, it never demands to have the final word, it is always merciful and considerate, it never tells you to shut up and listen to them and claims you could only be wrong... James also said that a true harvest of righteousness only comes through peace, it will not come through strife, not even this mysterious idea of strife for a Godly cause.

Hang in there man.

CounselorForChrist · Apr 18, 2013

To tired to read this whole topic but it reminds me that we are in the end days. Days where christians twist the bible for their own needs. Listen to preachers who tickle their ears. Hate others who do not agree with them. Christianity is falling in on itself not only from the outside, but from the inside. So sad.

trulyconverted · Apr 19, 2013

aiki said:
But Jesus saves us from certain things unto certain other things, does he not? He saves us from the penalty and power of sin unto a life of holy fellowship with himself. In light of this, it seems to me a strange response to a person's declaration that they are a gay to simply say, "So?" If they are not saved from that sin (and all others) unto a life in Christ, they will find themselves one day before God's Judgment Seat condemned and destined for hell!

More than peace, we are called unto righteousness and holiness. "Be you holy as I am holy," God commands.

Hang on a sec! Does what you're saying here line up with the rest of Scripture? I'm thinking in particular of 1 Corinthians 5. How do you reconcile what you say above with what the apostle does and commands of the Corinthian Christians in the chapter?

And with him what are we? I recall Paul saying something about believers being "joint-heirs with Christ." (Ro 8:16, 17)

Is what you've just written here your opinion? If it is, then it doesn't matter, right, and we can ignore everything you've just written?

I just don't see anywhere in Scripture where what you've said here is supported. What I do see are very many truths that are more or less equal in importance and vital to walking rightly with God.

How can one act without thought? The latter always precedes the former. One cannot act homosexually without the thought to do so. The Bible doesn't have to state this for it to be true any more than it has to state that gravity is true for it to be so.

Selah.

The main thing that we need is Jesus. Only His salvation. Other good things follow it.

I don't blame you for thinking the way you do, because it seems that is your belief at this moment in time.

May the Lord enlighten us all and instill His pure love in our hearts to love all and to esteem others better than ourselves.

If Not For Grace · Apr 19, 2013

Identifying as a homosexual is itself sin. God did not make anyone homosexual. Homosexuality is a demonic lie. God calls it an abomination. Why would a follower of Christ want to identify themself as something which God has so clearly despised

?

you mean like a "chief sinner" as Paul did? or does God love sin (Geez...)

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