The final pope and the Islamic Messiah

TruthWarrior

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No, I am not missing the big picture. I agree that the muslims prophecies would not have to plan out in detail. But that the Antichrist-beast being worshiped for that last 42 months, ending with Jesus's Return, is a show stopper because the Mahdi is not worshiped in Islam. That's major, not a detail.

I don't disagree with you that Islam is a global threat and that there are end times countries that attack Israel as a muslim coalition.

But what you are not getting is that destruction of the muslim coalition takes place before the 7 years of the Antichrist. I gave a detailed explanation above citing the two feasts in Ezekiel 39, the first being in verse 4 on the muslims coalition invasion; then 7 years later all of the armies of the world being destroyed at Armageddon, and that feast being in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Doug

You're missing the big picture:

THE LORD WILL FIGHT AGAINST THE NATIONS THAT BATTLE AGAINST JERUSALEM

"Behold, the day of the LORD is coming. And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. (Zechariah 14:1-3)

"It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zechariah 12:9)

DIVIDED LAND

"I will also gather all nations, and bring them to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people, My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land." (Joel 3:2)

When Jesus comes He is judging the people that have scattered His people and divided up His land. Who are the ones that want to scatter and destory Israel today? The Muslims!

JUDGMENT ON ISRAEL'S ENEMIES

"And there shall no longer be a pricking brier or a painful thorn for the house of Israel from among all who are around them, who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Thus says the Lord GOD: When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God." (Ezekiel 28:24-26)

EGYPT CONDEMNED AND CAST INTO THE PIT

"The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst." (Isaiah 19:1) "Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down to the depths of the earth, her and her daughters of the famous nations, with those who go down to the Pit." (Ezekiel 32:18).

JUDGMENT ON THE PHILISTINES

Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because the Philistines dealt vengefully and took vengeance with a spiteful heart, to destroy because of the old hatred, therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I will stretch out My hand against the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethites and destroy the remnant of the seacoast. I will execute great vengeance on them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I lay My vengeance upon them." (Ezekiel 25:15-17)

ISRAEL'S ENEMIES

"For behold, Your enemies make a tumult; And those who hate You have lifted up their head. They have taken crafty counsel against Your people, and consulted together against Your sheltered ones. They have said, 'Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be remembered no more." (Psalm 83:2-4)

JUDGMENT ON EDOM (YEMEN TO SAUDI ARABIA)

"Who is this who comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah, this One who is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of His strength?--'I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.' Why is Your apparel red, and Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, and trampled them in My fury; their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, and I have stained all My robes. For the day of vengeance is in My heart, and the year of My redeemed has come." (Isaiah 63:1-4)

In Isaiah 63:1-4 we see the Messiah emerging out of Edom with His robes literally sprinkled with blood. He came the first time as a lamb to be a humble servant and to die as our sacrifice, but when He returns the second time He is coming as a mighty, conquering lion.

ARMAGEDDON AND LEBANON

In Psalm 29 we find a clear connection between the Battle of Armageddon and the nation of Lebanon: "The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars, Yes, the Lord splinters the cedars of Lebanon" (Psalms 29:5) Muslim Lebanon will be destroyed. But this passage is speaking about the Battle of Armageddon: "The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness; The Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh." (Psalm 29:8) Kadesh is the valley of Megiddo "Har-Megiddo"--Armageddon: "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon" (Revelation 16:16). This is an End-Times event: "And in His temple everyone says, "Glory!"(v.9) "And the Lord sits as King forever."(v. 10).

MOAB (JORDAN) SHALL BE TRAMPLED DOWN

"And it will be said in that day: 'Behold, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' For on this mountain the hand of the LORD will rest, and Moab shall be trampled down under Him, as straw is trampled down for the refuse heap." (Isaiah 25:9-10)

EGYPT, SUDAN, LIBYA, TURKEY AND ARABIA WILL FALL BY THE SWORD

"Cush and Put, Lydia and all Arabia, Libya and the people of the covenant land will fall by the sword along with Egypt" (Ezekiel 30:5). Put or Phut is a reference to North Africa and includes the regions west of Egypt. Lydia was a central western region of Turkey. They will all be destroyed along with the Antichrist. These nations are in "league" or in "covenant" and allied with the Antichrist.

SYRIA, IRAQ, IRAN, AND TURKEY WILL FALL BY THE SWORD

"Assyria is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword: Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living" (Ezekiel 32:22-23). Assyria and "all her company" could include several Middle Eastern nations including Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey as well as Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. They will all be cast into the pit.

JORDAN, SAUDI ARABIA WILL GO DOWN TO THE PIT

"There is Edom, her kings, and all her princes, which with their might are laid by them that were slain by the sword: they shall lie with the uncircumcised, and with them that go down to the pit" (Ezekiel 32:29) In the strict sense, Edom is comprised of the southern parts of Jordan but here the text states "her kings" (plural). This encompasses Arabia. In many passages, Edom has come to represent the greater portion of the enemies of Israel that live to her south and east.

TURKEY, LEBANON WILL GO DOWN TO THE PIT

"There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Sidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit (Ezekiel 32:30). All the "princes of the North" refers to Turkey and her allies. And Sidon once again refers to Lebanon. They are both cast "down to the pit."

TURKEY AND THE TURKIC NATIONS SOUTH OF RUSSIA WILL GO DOWN TO THE PIT

The Turkic Nations include nations such as Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan: "There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living. And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the might in the land of the living." (Ezekiel 32:26-27)

TYRE, SIDON, AND PHILISTIA CONDEMNED

"Indeed, what have you to do with Me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia? Will you retaliate against Me? But if you retaliate against Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head." (Joel 3:4)

A WARNING TO THE ENEMIES OF MOUNT ZION

"It shall even be as when a hungry man dreams, and look--he eats, but he awakes, and his soul is still empty; or as when a thirsty man dreams, and look--he drinks; but he awakes, and indeed he is faint, and his soul still craves: so the multitude of all the nations shall be, who fights against Mount Zion." (Isaiah 29:8)

LEBANON WILL FALL

"He will cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon will fall by the Mighty One." (Isaiah 10:34)

THE LORD WILL FIGHT FOR MOUNT ZION

For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof. As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it. (Isaiah 31:4-5)

ISRAEL BELONGS TO THE JEWS

"I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers." (Ezekiel 20:41-42)
 
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TruthWarrior

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Finally, after all the Middle East activity in the last couple years, someone else see's things like I do. http://www.christianforums.com/t7651013-6/#post60357462

Just keep spreading the truth brother. God will send a strong delusion to those who don't want truth. I do, however, believe that the Rothschilds and Rockefellers etc are also very corrupt and are helping to create wars, but I have to follow what the Bible says. Yes, Islam is the beast and Antichrist.
 
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Interplanner

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Are Christians who don't know justification by faith, or don't know that the promises to Abraham were fufilled in the resurrection (Acts 13) a form of antichrist as well? AFter all in I John, it has nothing to do with finding current figures, and everything to do with doctrinal mistakes. The same guy wrote Rev.
 
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Douggg

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You're missing the big picture:

THE LORD WILL FIGHT AGAINST THE NATIONS THAT BATTLE AGAINST JERUSALEM

It's ALL nations. Not just the Muslim nations. South America, North America, China, Japan, Australia, Europe - those are NOT Muslims nations.

I don't argue that maybe a small country Haiti wont' be in the mix, when it comes to all; but your view of "all" is not reasonable.
DIVIDED LAND

"I will also gather all nations, and bring them to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people, My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land." (Joel 3:2)

The muslims didn't scatter the Jews into the other nations - that happened 500 years before Islam. Just stop. There is going to be no perceived Mahdi Antichrist or beast figure, because the beast will be worshiped for 42 months. I gave you the link to what Muslims believe.

The remnant of those nations after Gog/Magog, 7 years later at Armageddon will participate but not as muslims. Islam the religion will be abandoned with the advent of the Jews perceived messiah right after Gog/Magog.

Here's a chart I made up 4 or 5 years ago. With the seven years bracketed by the two feasts in Ezekiel 39, that follow Gog/Magog.

 
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Interplanner

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the reason not to mess with any of it is because the time of unequalled distrress refers to the 1st century's 7th decade, and things leading up to that. So now I see its not enough to predict Israel's future, but we have people taking on the future of ISlam too?

"It is not for us to know... but you will recieve power to be my witness
 
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Douggg

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the reason not to mess with any of it is because the time of unequalled distrress refers to the 1st century's 7th decade, and things leading up to that. So now I see its not enough to predict Israel's future, but we have people taking on the future of ISlam too?

"It is not for us to know... but you will recieve power to be my witness

Gog/Magog is in your bible too.

Doug
 
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ebedmelech

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Recently there has been quite a lot of talk about the final pope. According to an old "prophecy," this current pope will be the last one. The reason this concerns me is because this is shifting people's attention away from Islam. If you don't already know, let me tell you about Islamic end time prophecy:

Muslims are awaiting two end time characters--the Mahdi (12th Imam), and Isa (the Muslim Jesus). Most Muslim scholars believe the Mahdi will have seven years to convert the world to Islam and gain victory over Jerusalem. They also believe that the Mahdi will be joined by Jesus, who will ultimately abolish Christianity and tell people that Islam is the true religion. Anybody who refuses to convert will be beheaded. Beheading is the main form of execution in Islam.

Most Christians, in my experience, believe that when Jesus returns, he's just going to rapture the church and take us to heaven. But he's going to do much more than that. When we examine the end time prophecies in the Old Testament, we see that Jesus is going to fight for Jerusalem and is going to destroy all the Islamic nations. We, too, will be fighting with Jesus in this war. I can 100% back this up with scripture, but it's verses that you've probably never seen before.

I have no idea what role the final pope is going to play. It could be that the final pope will join up with Islam. Only God knows. There is the beast, the Antichrist, and the false prophet. Now, this is my theory:

I believe the Antichrist (the little horn) in the book of Daniel is the Mahdi (12 Imam). I believe the beast is Islam. In the Bible, a beast is symbolic for a nation or Empire. And I believe the false prophet is Isa (the Muslim Jesus). Having said that, the false prophet may well be the final pope. But I'm more inclined to believe it is the Muslim Jesus.

I just think Christians need to keep their eyes on Islam. Don't be deceived.
Not this again....:confused:

The pope in no way fits the bill...but you're right, you have just another theory that close examination of scripture soundly refutes.

I don't mean to offend, but your theory is more "antichrist hunting" nonsense.
 
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Interplanner

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Sorry Doug, but unless there is a clear treatment by the apostles of a passage, I don't bother with it. There is enough to do with the 2500 quotes and allusions.

And there is the declaration or "order/royal command" of Rom 16 that the mystery hidden in the OT is now clear in the Gospel so that the nations would believe and obey. It is not that the GEntiles would be justified before the same God, but how: it is by belief on Christs work. This unleashes the power of the Spirit to increase righteousness in the world. The redemption of the Gentiles always the objective of the age of Messiah.
 
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Literalist

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Response to the OP:

The human little horn of Daniel's visions will be the manifestation of the first beast of Revelation

This northern human king's origin will be Middle Eastern for sure and he will rise in the northern Levant [Mesopotamia], conquer the Middle East, and lead the Islamic masses there who will worship him as a "god"

The Pope and the RCC, if around at the time, will be his victims along with others 'infidels" who will not worship this beast from the abyss

The Islamic masses in the Middle East will think that this beast is their Mahdi [Allah's representative on the earth]

The false "god" Allah worshiped by Islam today is an imaginary "god" who does not exist and a cover for Satan


There is only one true God and creator of the universe, the God of Israel, and the same God of the scriptures of the Bible

Allah is an ancient false pagan deity, the "god" of the crescent moon worshiped by the ancient Assyrians and Babylonians

It is this particular false "god" that Mohammed selected for his followers to worship, and these same populations of the Middle East worship the false "god" today

They are worshiping Satan

All of the visions of the Bible prophets for the time of the end are focused upon the Middle East for the time of the end of this present age and they all identify Daniel's human little horn and his followers as being populations of the Middle East proper, today's Muslims of the region
 
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TruthWarrior

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It's ALL nations. Not just the Muslim nations. South America, North America, China, Japan, Australia, Europe - those are NOT Muslims nations.

I don't argue that maybe a small country Haiti wont' be in the mix, when it comes to all; but your view of "all" is not reasonable.


The muslims didn't scatter the Jews into the other nations - that happened 500 years before Islam. Just stop. There is going to be no perceived Mahdi Antichrist or beast figure, because the beast will be worshiped for 42 months. I gave you the link to what Muslims believe.

The remnant of those nations after Gog/Magog, 7 years later at Armageddon will participate but not as muslims. Islam the religion will be abandoned with the advent of the Jews perceived messiah right after Gog/Magog.

Here's a chart I made up 4 or 5 years ago. With the seven years bracketed by the two feasts in Ezekiel 39, that follow Gog/Magog.


Like I have repeatedly told you, quite often in the Bible, the word "All" did not literally mean every single nation on earth. I noticed you also ignored all the other verses. Here they are again:

THE LORD WILL FIGHT AGAINST THE NATIONS THAT BATTLE AGAINST JERUSALEM

"Behold, the day of the LORD is coming. And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. (Zechariah 14:1-3)

"It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zechariah 12:9)

DIVIDED LAND

"I will also gather all nations, and bring them to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people, My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land." (Joel 3:2)

When Jesus comes He is judging the people that have scattered His people and divided up His land. Who are the ones that want to scatter and destory Israel today? The Muslims!

JUDGMENT ON ISRAEL'S ENEMIES

"And there shall no longer be a pricking brier or a painful thorn for the house of Israel from among all who are around them, who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Thus says the Lord GOD: When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God." (Ezekiel 28:24-26)

EGYPT CONDEMNED AND CAST INTO THE PIT

"The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst." (Isaiah 19:1) "Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down to the depths of the earth, her and her daughters of the famous nations, with those who go down to the Pit." (Ezekiel 32:18).

JUDGMENT ON THE PHILISTINES

Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because the Philistines dealt vengefully and took vengeance with a spiteful heart, to destroy because of the old hatred, therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I will stretch out My hand against the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethites and destroy the remnant of the seacoast. I will execute great vengeance on them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I lay My vengeance upon them." (Ezekiel 25:15-17)

ISRAEL'S ENEMIES

"For behold, Your enemies make a tumult; And those who hate You have lifted up their head. They have taken crafty counsel against Your people, and consulted together against Your sheltered ones. They have said, 'Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be remembered no more." (Psalm 83:2-4)

JUDGMENT ON EDOM (YEMEN TO SAUDI ARABIA)

"Who is this who comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah, this One who is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of His strength?--'I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.' Why is Your apparel red, and Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, and trampled them in My fury; their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, and I have stained all My robes. For the day of vengeance is in My heart, and the year of My redeemed has come." (Isaiah 63:1-4)

In Isaiah 63:1-4 we see the Messiah emerging out of Edom with His robes literally sprinkled with blood. He came the first time as a lamb to be a humble servant and to die as our sacrifice, but when He returns the second time He is coming as a mighty, conquering lion.

ARMAGEDDON AND LEBANON

In Psalm 29 we find a clear connection between the Battle of Armageddon and the nation of Lebanon: "The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars, Yes, the Lord splinters the cedars of Lebanon" (Psalms 29:5) Muslim Lebanon will be destroyed. But this passage is speaking about the Battle of Armageddon: "The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness; The Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh." (Psalm 29:8) Kadesh is the valley of Megiddo "Har-Megiddo"--Armageddon: "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon" (Revelation 16:16). This is an End-Times event: "And in His temple everyone says, "Glory!"(v.9) "And the Lord sits as King forever."(v. 10).

MOAB (JORDAN) SHALL BE TRAMPLED DOWN

"And it will be said in that day: 'Behold, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' For on this mountain the hand of the LORD will rest, and Moab shall be trampled down under Him, as straw is trampled down for the refuse heap." (Isaiah 25:9-10)

EGYPT, SUDAN, LIBYA, TURKEY AND ARABIA WILL FALL BY THE SWORD

"Cush and Put, Lydia and all Arabia, Libya and the people of the covenant land will fall by the sword along with Egypt" (Ezekiel 30:5). Put or Phut is a reference to North Africa and includes the regions west of Egypt. Lydia was a central western region of Turkey. They will all be destroyed along with the Antichrist. These nations are in "league" or in "covenant" and allied with the Antichrist.

SYRIA, IRAQ, IRAN, AND TURKEY WILL FALL BY THE SWORD

"Assyria is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword: Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living" (Ezekiel 32:22-23). Assyria and "all her company" could include several Middle Eastern nations including Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey as well as Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. They will all be cast into the pit.

JORDAN, SAUDI ARABIA WILL GO DOWN TO THE PIT

"There is Edom, her kings, and all her princes, which with their might are laid by them that were slain by the sword: they shall lie with the uncircumcised, and with them that go down to the pit" (Ezekiel 32:29) In the strict sense, Edom is comprised of the southern parts of Jordan but here the text states "her kings" (plural). This encompasses Arabia. In many passages, Edom has come to represent the greater portion of the enemies of Israel that live to her south and east.

TURKEY, LEBANON WILL GO DOWN TO THE PIT

"There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Sidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit (Ezekiel 32:30). All the "princes of the North" refers to Turkey and her allies. And Sidon once again refers to Lebanon. They are both cast "down to the pit."

TURKEY AND THE TURKIC NATIONS SOUTH OF RUSSIA WILL GO DOWN TO THE PIT

The Turkic Nations include nations such as Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan: "There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living. And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the might in the land of the living." (Ezekiel 32:26-27)

TYRE, SIDON, AND PHILISTIA CONDEMNED

"Indeed, what have you to do with Me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia? Will you retaliate against Me? But if you retaliate against Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head." (Joel 3:4)

A WARNING TO THE ENEMIES OF MOUNT ZION

"It shall even be as when a hungry man dreams, and look--he eats, but he awakes, and his soul is still empty; or as when a thirsty man dreams, and look--he drinks; but he awakes, and indeed he is faint, and his soul still craves: so the multitude of all the nations shall be, who fights against Mount Zion." (Isaiah 29:8)

LEBANON WILL FALL

"He will cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon will fall by the Mighty One." (Isaiah 10:34)

THE LORD WILL FIGHT FOR MOUNT ZION

For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof. As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it. (Isaiah 31:4-5)

ISRAEL BELONGS TO THE JEWS

"I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers." (Ezekiel 20:41-42)
 
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TruthWarrior

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Response to the OP:

The human little horn of Daniel's visions will be the manifestation of the first beast of Revelation

This northern human king's origin will be Middle Eastern for sure and he will rise in the northern Levant [Mesopotamia], conquer the Middle East, and lead the Islamic masses there who will worship him as a "god"

The Pope and the RCC, if around at the time, will be his victims along with others 'infidels" who will not worship this beast from the abyss

The Islamic masses in the Middle East will think that this beast is their Mahdi [Allah's representative on the earth]

The false "god" Allah worshiped by Islam today is an imaginary "god" who does not exist and a cover for Satan


There is only one true God and creator of the universe, the God of Israel, and the same God of the scriptures of the Bible

Allah is an ancient false pagan deity, the "god" of the crescent moon worshiped by the ancient Assyrians and Babylonians

It is this particular false "god" that Mohammed selected for his followers to worship, and these same populations of the Middle East worship the false "god" today

They are worshiping Satan

All of the visions of the Bible prophets for the time of the end are focused upon the Middle East for the time of the end of this present age and they all identify Daniel's human little horn and his followers as being populations of the Middle East proper, today's Muslims of the region

Well said. I'm glad somebody else can see what the Bible clearly teaches. God bless
 
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Interplanner

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Literalist, this is intriguing. YEs your'e right that the reformation writers almost all had the pope in their crosshairs. The reaction to that (in the form of the Jesuit counter reformation and RIbera and ALcazar) is what berthed or revived futurism (they had to, to deflect the missiles being fired at the holy father by the reformers).

But as to why the reformers tried to interpret the broad strokes of history, i don't know. The historical method (not histoiricism) would have said that most of the materials of Mt24 & // have to do with the 1st century, and expected the end of the world 'immediately after' the DofJ, and then put us on hold since. But i guess it's every theologians dream to have the answers to big historical questions.

NOt that they all did, either. FOr ex., there is a painting in MUnich which captures the climax of things in the 1st century with three apostles and Paul explaining the horrible razing of Jerusalem. ABove each of the four is an angel inspiring their explanation. It is from the 17th cent. so some of the theologians stuck with the actual historical meaning, and avoided the temptation to answer all possible questions about history from the Bible on the belief that that's what Rev was for, as they are prone to do today.

now you used the term 'inserted.' LEt's see what we have here. The reason for this declaration was not Rev. IT was the doctrinal reasons of 1 John and how he defined antichrist there. (the disconnect between the two continues to puzzle me). THey had every right to do so, since John already had said it was the last hour, never mind the last "times"! SO there was no insertion in the sense of a mistaken chronology; that's not how the accusation came about.

On the other hand, futurism does quite a bit of insertion (in the sense you meant). They force some 2000 years between 69 and 70 in daniels 70 weeks, for ex. They force the same into mt 24 & //s on a regular basis. This really annoys me because "Jesus" then becomes someone as surreal as a Dali painting. He's nowhere because he's everywhere; yuck.

MUch to think about, I say.
 
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Literalist

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Interplanner states:

"On the other hand, futurism does quite a bit of insertion (in the sense you meant). They force some 2000 years between 69 and 70 in daniels 70 weeks, for ex. They force the same into mt 24 & //s on a regular basis. This really annoys me because "Jesus" then becomes someone as surreal as a Dali painting. He's nowhere because he's everywhere; yuck.

MUch to think about, I say."


There is a definite breach found in all of the prophetic visions between the end of the 69th week [the Lord's "cutting off"] ..... and the beginning of the 70th still pending

This is because Israel rejected the Lord and the nation still does today, but this is going to change for a believing remnant part of the nation

When the incoming of the Gentiles has been completed the Lord is going to focus upon His nation of Israel during the coming 70th week, the time of Jacob's trouble

There is not one significant historical event recorded upon the earth during the time lapse of the breach of silence apparent in the prophetic visions .... not one

"Futurism" as you call it inserts nothing in the breach because there is nothing to insert

One will not find events like 70 AD, the crusades, the inquisitions, World War [I, II], the holocaust, etc in the prophetic visions]

The next scheduled prophetic events are still ahead of us

If you are a Gentile be thankful that the Lord has tarried for this long, if not, you may never have existed to take part in His offer of eternal life

And it is still the "last hour" [last time] by the way .... and this time lapse is still running

And His age of grace will end when the fullness of the adding of Gentiles has come

Think about this

Your theological view may be one of preterism [historical] and or a-millennialism, but both are easily refuted by the prophetic scriptures on many accounts

These views require a great deal of relegating major portions of the prophetic scriptures to allegory in order to support them

And again returning to the subject of this posting, the one that some call the "antichrist" will rise in the Muslim Middle East at the ending of this present age .... this one will not be a Pope and his followers will not be members of the RCC [even though the teachings of this organization are very apostate]

The prophetic scriptures specifically identify this nefarious character and his followers by ethnic lineage and by location on the earth
 
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Interplanner

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Uhhh, you didn't see it. You just assumed that there is a gap. Who says? Doesn't 70 follow 69 just like back at 7 and 8? HOw do we know then, that there is not 500 or 5000 years between 7 and 8? Through our Lord Jesus CHrist, who gave the only interp of Dan 9 in Mt 24 & //s and said it was a 1st century event.

In a way, we didnt' need that. THe 490 years is someplace in the mid 1st century anyway, but the last week has things happen in it that are assuredly curious and portentuous.

BUt in 490 years from the giving of the prophecy, you have Messiah accomplishing those 7 things, which are the Gospel. If people read them and think sin ends totally, its only because they don't know the principles of justification by faith about imputed sin and righteousness. Which by the way, has always had a huge effect on society because it shows a divine justice very intent on making things right, and that purifies those who know of it. ALso MEssiah is cut off but not for himself. As for the rest of the vision, it is easy to see the events of the DofJ in them, although I have read that 'to make firm' can be meant either positive or negative: it is either the awful, abominable person making GOd's covenant harsh or it is Messiah making the new covenant (in terms of the 7 things mentioned).

Funny how none of the parables or ordinary statements about Israel's rejection of the GOspel show a universal return. THe Israel mentioned in Rom 11 is the new Israel of God of 9:6, 24, and the passage is historic-oriented anyway.

In usual D'ism, the whole church age is inserted in to the picture because it's like God was surprised ISrael would reject. SOme D'ists even think this is the 'mystery' of Rom 16, col 1, eph 3. The only thing is a mystery is the way the nations would come in to the redeemed community, not the fact of it. That was as clear as the first Abrahamic promise and/or the 1st promise after sin arrived.

As far as I can tell, I'm post-millenial because, since REv was written about its own times, the millenium is now with its little period of rebellion at the end. POst-mill is often confused as a-mill (which would deny its existence).

I only use OT materials that are officially interp'd by the apostles. 2500 quotes and allusions. I find many mistakes and rabbit trails in D'ism and futurism when they leave that criterion.

I can understand a relapse or repeat of the 1st century events today; some leader in Judaism may come along and seriously believe that God is going to swing down and flatten the neighbors (don't let them know; it seriously cuts in on evangelistic efforts) and set up DAvid's kingdom again. BUt that's because JUdaism, then and now, doesn't read PAul in Acts 13 or 15. That's because Judaism, literalism and futurism alike do not accept the apostle's authority regarding the OT.
 
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Literalist

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You and I are miles apart regarding the interpretation of the prophetic scriptures

To the extent that I would consider your view to be an entirely different gospel

So we will just have to agree to disagree on this issue of extreme significance

There is no good reason to discuss any further
 
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