To those who do not believe in OSAS, how would you lose salvation?

A New Day

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I wanted to know if Paul said that he was saved and I was searching and i did not find that yet.
Paul did not have the guide of the holy spirit only, he also had great revelations and with all that he did not consider himself to be saved, rather than that in God's wisdom he had a thorn in the flesh and he said:
2 Corinthians 12:7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

Paul also said:
1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
 
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OntheHorizon

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I understand what you are saying

I think you are right that believing you are saved couldn't really mean you are saved and other things do come into play.

I do think Paul knew he was saved, he was very clear about what it meant to be saved and how to be saved, he wouldn't have written the book of Romans testifying about what salvation really was and was not and why we can hope and rest assured and Christ if he had not been sure what salvation really was or that he himself was saved... he wrote that book to try to prove what salvation is and is not and what we can hope in.

He also seemed confident about other peoples salvation. He said he was confident (in God, not man) that God would complete the work started in the people in Philippi in Phil 1.7

He also talked about people who had fallen away and could not be brought back to repentance in Hebrews 6 but he makes it clear in v9 that he was absolutely sure that this did not apply to them, that these people were saved and that God new these peoples good works and their love toward God. Heb 6.9

Paul urged people to stay in the gospel, he urged people to stay on track and he warned against pride that did not worry about falling 1 Cor 10.12 but he did not approach salvation fearfully.

2 Cor 5.8 NIV
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Paul was confident, he knew he was saved and he was absolutely confident that to die was to be finally at home with Jesus.

I think Paul new that apostasy was possible but he had no reason to fear it.
 
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shturt678

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I'm guilty of enough sins of omission and handing out the sugar without the vinegar of the OSAS fallacy. However I do heed your words and thank you. From my vantage point, an ol' old school Lutheran: We need to understand the Scriptures the best we can as the ancients understood them. They understood Koine objectivity and subjectivity and a positive side to a message with a corresponding negative side. For some reason this gets lost in the English.

My end point: We are to know subjectively that we will finish the race and inherit eternal salvation, yet there are objective warnings (vinegar) that Churches don't want to even think about let alone say anything. Looking at OSAS Jn.10:28, 29 needs to be construed with Jn.15:1-6, (IIPet.1:20, 21), i.e., the positive side (Jn.15) vs.1-5 with the negative side, v.6 with absolutely no OSAS just for starters right here, let alone all the other passages against OSAS. Well my two-bits, thank you for considering.
 
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A New Day

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I personally completely agree with most of the stuff that were said and i am sorry if i did not speak about everything that I think but I will try to cover a lot of what i think now.

Paul had no doubt about the salvation itself and that is reason that he continued what he was doing in trust to reach the heaven in the end because the salvation is something real, and as said before me he wouldn't have written about it..., but he said that he can at anytime fall if he does not continue the race, I see that as a wisdom of humiliation to the Lord.

For me I see that Paul was 100% guaranteed to be saved because simply God chose him. But I can not completely assert if Paul knew that he was saved or not unless God revealed it to him in some way. For that I have two thoughts:
- either God revealed it to him and he knew that he was saved and for that he continued to preach for the people in order that they believe and become saved.
- either God did not reveal it to him and he continued to preach in order that he continues to be saved and that others beleive and become saved.

Nonetheless Paul was clearly humble to the will of the lord in his life and I see it in many of his verses, Paul did never claim to put himself in the place of God to judge his own soul whether he knew that he was saved or not, and he did not judge the salvation of others too, and for him he preferred to continue what he was doing until the end and to never boast about himself at all because our sin and God's Rightesousness can coexist together but our will and God's will cannot coeixst together, we cannot serve two masters.

I also think that Paul could not say that he can be diqualified for the prize if he did not mean it in 1 Corinthians 9:27, but out of humiliation he did not depend on himself, as I said our will and God's will cannot go together and so many others than Paul too did not have God the number one for them only but he was everything for them too that they laid their selves/lives to be vessels for God.

I ask a question, what is preferred, that I tell someone that he is saved in order that I may be a cause for him to slack in his faith? or is it better that I advise to strive to enter through the narrow door Luke 13:24?

please no one count on my thought as on other thoughts as well because every human thought may be in an error. It is the salvation and not a small subject.
 
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I have always been of the opinion, that consistent Arminianism, does not hold to OSAS. So I am glad to at least see some consistent Arminians here. I come from an Assembly of God background, awakened to a need for salvation when I was 8, and baptized by an AoG minister a couple months later. Those were some good days, I really enjoyed the Royal Rangers youth group as a kid. I dressed up in a camel costume for a Church float one year, nearly froze to death. lol Both of my parents attend a non-denom Church where the minister is a former AoG pastor for like 20+ years, a cousin of my dad's. As far as I can tell, my dad will always be associated with AoG, my mom is a submissive Presbyterian (though she was "saved" attending a Baptist Church), I think she is somewhere inbetween. Anyway, I've been on both sides of the fence, and have only been a Calvinist for around 10 years, much to my surprise.
 
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A New Day

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I appreciate your thoughts again and I like the wisdom that you have. But about your

He also seemed confident about other peoples salvation. He said he was confident (in God, not man) that God would complete the work started in the people in Philippi in Phil 1.7

I think that it is half true so I would like to add something if you don't mind, let me put that verse first:

Philippians 1:7 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart and, whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God’s grace with me.

As I mentioned in my previous thought after you, the salvation is real and as you said: he wouldn't have written the book of Romans testifying about what salvation really was

But listen to the rest of the verses first:

Philippians 1:9 And this is my prayer, that your love will keep on growing more and more with full knowledge and insight, 10 so that you may be able to choose what is best and be pure and blameless until the day when the Messiah returns,

I understand that Paul was happy about that church because they were still in the faith and they did not leave it, they were like Paul, they chose to continue to be blameless, they did not slack in that. Look at the following verse:

Philippians 1:30 You have the same struggle that you saw in me and now hear that I am still having.

He also talked about people who had fallen away and could not be brought back to repentance in Hebrews 6 but he makes it clear in v9 that he was absolutely sure that this did not apply to them, that these people were saved and that God new these peoples good works and their love toward God. Heb 6.9

If the Philippians were not still in the faith then Paul would not say what he said about them, and in other words, if they slack then Paul would not say what he said about them. but at the time that Paul wrote to them they were still in the faith and that is why Paul considered them to blameless and he urged them to continue like that.

If they slack, would Paul say the same thing to them? They did not slack and Paul encouraged them too so what if they slacked.

Paul urged people to stay in the gospel, he urged people to stay on track and he warned against pride that did not worry about falling 1 Cor 10.12 but he did not approach salvation fearfully.

:thumbsup:

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

with fear and trembling not about doubting the salvation itself, the salvation is real, and not about the fear and trembling of the desperate person, but with fear and trembling in the meaning of having the vigilance and the precaution to not loose their salvation after that they received it, to not loose it with their own sins.
There are two kinds of fear: one that is a negative fear and that casts out the love of the Lord and that causes doubt and hesitation, and there is the fear that I may sin and that I should take a precaution to not slack about the sin that seperates me from the Lord both now and later, when Cain departed from the company with the Lord he felt a regret or a fear though not of the hatred of sin but in fear of an earthly punishment and that is an example of the negative fear.
 
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shturt678

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I thought I was going to have an uphill battle on this thread. You folks gave me a needed 240v. A.C. kick-start for this Sunday. Now I can go to Church with a happy face. Thank you. Just your friend in Jesus, just ol' non-OSAS ol old non-modern Lutheran Jack working out his own salvation with fear and trembling, Rom.3:18.
 
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DorkiusMaximus

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What's the Point of Hebrews 6:4-6?--Middletree Bible Studies

I didn't think they were talking about loss of salvation in Hebrews. No sin is too great for Jesus. The only sin that keeps you out of Heaven is the sin of unbelief which obviously can't be repented once we die.

Losing your salvation seems like you have to 'work for it' when we know we cannot, as it is through grace alone. We're told to have faith, God does the rest. We're told to work 'on' our salvation, not FOR it.
 
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Skala

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What's the Point of Hebrews 6:4-6?--Middletree Bible Studies

I didn't think they were talking about loss of salvation in Hebrews. No sin is too great for Jesus. The only sin that keeps you out of Heaven is the sin of unbelief which obviously can't be repented once we die.

Losing your salvation seems like you have to 'work for it' when we know we cannot, as it is through grace alone. We're told to have faith, God does the rest. We're told to work 'on' our salvation, not FOR it.

Actually even the sin of unbelief can be forgiven.

For all Christians were - before believing - unbelievers at one point :)
 
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shturt678

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What's the Point of Hebrews 6:4-6?--Middletree Bible Studies

I didn't think they were talking about loss of salvation in Hebrews. No sin is too great for Jesus. The only sin that keeps you out of Heaven is the sin of unbelief which obviously can't be repented once we die.

Losing your salvation seems like you have to 'work for it' when we know we cannot, as it is through grace alone. We're told to have faith, God does the rest. We're told to work 'on' our salvation, not FOR it.

:):):) Let's eyeball Heb.6:6 again: "....impossible again to renew them unto repentance...". My sad point here is even God, Himself, the Holy Spirit, nor his Word and the ministers of that Word are able to produce a renewal of the repentance that gone, i.e, renewal impossible and God, Himself cannot go against His own Word. I know seems harsh but open for refute of course. :thumbsup:
 
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OntheHorizon

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What's the Point of Hebrews 6:4-6?--Middletree Bible Studies

I didn't think they were talking about loss of salvation in Hebrews. No sin is too great for Jesus. The only sin that keeps you out of Heaven is the sin of unbelief which obviously can't be repented once we die.

Losing your salvation seems like you have to 'work for it' when we know we cannot, as it is through grace alone. We're told to have faith, God does the rest. We're told to work 'on' our salvation, not FOR it.

Well you are right, there is no reason why a person couldn't be saved. When people say that OSAS isn't true they are generally just saying that a person can choose to walk away, not that salvation ever becomes impossible.

But Hebrews 6 say there are people who you cannot get to repent, for various reasons.
 
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OntheHorizon

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:):):) Let's eyeball Heb.6:6 again: "....impossible again to renew them unto repentance...". My sad point here is even God, Himself, the Holy Spirit, nor his Word and the ministers of that Word are able to produce a renewal of the repentance that gone, i.e, renewal impossible and God, Himself cannot go against His own Word. I know seems harsh but open for refute of course. :thumbsup:

Look at what the scriptures are saying it lists a few different things that seem like experiences or events in these peoples lives

1. Been enlightened
2. Tasted the heavenly gift
3. Who have shared in holyspirit
4. Tasted the word of God
5. Tasted the power of God to come

who have fallen away v6

Paul is saying "They knew the truth, they tasted heaven, they even shared in the holyghost, they understood God's word and they saw the power of God... if these people fall away you will not be able to persuade them to repent" ... because there is nothing left to show them, they've already seen it all, there is nothing left to undo their unbelief, there's nothing to teach them or show them, they already know it all and have seen all we have... there's nothing left we have that can persuade them to repent.

Paul is saying sometimes if people who used to walk with God fall away you may not be able to bring them back because we have nothing to show or teach them that they don't already know. It isn't saying they cannot saved, it said that you cannot get them to repent.
 
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shturt678

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Look at what the scriptures are saying it lists a few different things that seem like experiences or events in these peoples lives

1. Been enlightened
2. Tasted the heavenly gift
3. Who have shared in holyspirit
4. Tasted the word of God
5. Tasted the power of God to come

who have fallen away v6

Paul is saying "They knew the truth, they tasted heaven, they even shared in the holyghost, they understood God's word and they saw the power of God... if these people fall away you will not be able to persuade them to repent" ... because there is nothing left to show them, they've already seen it all, there is nothing left to undo their unbelief, there's nothing to teach them or show them, they already know it all and have seen all we have... there's nothing left we have that can persuade them to repent.

Paul is saying sometimes if people who used to walk with God fall away you may not be able to bring them back because we have nothing to show or teach them that they don't already know. It isn't saying they cannot saved, it said that you cannot get them to repent.

:):):) I love to have to have things to think about. Thank you. Will scrutinize your sharing, looks good just with a quick look over. :thumbsup:
 
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OntheHorizon

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I have a friend who knows the word of God, he's ministered to people before, he's helped people before, he's walked with God and something broke his faith... and there is nothing that I can say or do that matters to him because he's knows all this already, it's not that he doesn't understand scripture, it's not that he hasn't seen the miracles, it's not that he's never experienced God... he has, he's done all those things and he's now dismissed them and I cannot get him to repent because there is nothing that I have that he hasn't already experienced and dismissed as wrong or some sort of bad logic or some sort of trickery... I can't bring him back because I have nothing left to show him.

Does that make sense? That's what Heb 6 is talking about. It will take God doing something that I cannot predict or do. But that's what happens when the older ones fall away sincerely... it's hard to bring them back because what can you tell them?
 
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shturt678

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I have a friend who knows the word of God, he's ministered to people before, he's helped people before, he's walked with God and something broke his faith... and there is nothing that I can say or do that matters to him because he's knows all this already, it's not that he doesn't understand scripture, it's not that he hasn't seen the miracles, it's not that he's never experienced God... he has, he's done all those things and he's now dismissed them and I cannot get him to repent because there is nothing that I have that he hasn't already experienced and dismissed as wrong or some sort of bad logic or some sort of trickery... I can't bring him back because I have nothing left to show him.

Does that make sense? That's what Heb 6 is talking about. It will take God doing something that I cannot predict or do. But that's what happens when the older ones fall away sincerely... it's hard to bring them back because what can you tell them?

:):):) I don't know the Word; however I do know enough to know what I don't know....sometimes I even wonder about this....do I really? Anyway back to your words. Being an ol' old timer, doesn't mean I know anything, but do have a lot of experience with disasters, I.e., spiritual especially. I have, successful in a few cases, i.e., moved others from Jn.3:16, bypassing Hebrews all together, right to IIThess.2 which describes our spiritual condition exactly so they can see exactly where they are at and how they got there, i.e., "time they were born into." It successfully pulled my treasured literal sister out from the pits; however later a minister, I'm also one, but not the burning type, burned her, and she turned on me, but at least out from the pits. Maybe a poor example. Wow, that wasn't brief. Thank you again. :thumbsup:
 
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A New Day

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I didn't think they were talking about loss of salvation in Hebrews. No sin is too great for Jesus. The only sin that keeps you out of Heaven is the sin of unbelief which obviously can't be repented once we die.

Dear DorkiusMaximus the sin that keeps me out of heaven is the will to sin, if I willfully sin it is like I tell Jesus: I bought my salvation so I sin and you cover me.

When I tolerate the sin it can become my master in time, while that is not what Jesus wants: Jesus said that we must be fruitful, and of course the fruit needs time, And I cannot be fruitful if I am not with the Lord, if i do not stay in the Lord.

Losing your salvation seems like you have to 'work for it' when we know we cannot, as it is through grace alone. We're told to have faith, God does the rest. We're told to work 'on' our salvation, not FOR it.

I do not have to work to earn my salvation but when I accept my salvation, I say accept because the salvation is a gift and of course for those who accept it because not everyone accepts it, then the good works automatically come as a result for that belief, since we bear fruit, the good works are not the cause they are the result, So the good works do not eliminate the salvation since they are a fruit of it, so why do I need to suppress them? I may be suppressing his grace in me and through me after all.
 
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DeaconDean

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Look at what the scriptures are saying it lists a few different things that seem like experiences or events in these peoples lives

1. Been enlightened
2. Tasted the heavenly gift
3. Who have shared in holyspirit
4. Tasted the word of God
5. Tasted the power of God to come

who have fallen away v6

Paul is saying "They knew the truth, they tasted heaven, they even shared in the holyghost, they understood God's word and they saw the power of God... if these people fall away you will not be able to persuade them to repent" ... because there is nothing left to show them, they've already seen it all, there is nothing left to undo their unbelief, there's nothing to teach them or show them, they already know it all and have seen all we have... there's nothing left we have that can persuade them to repent.

Paul is saying sometimes if people who used to walk with God fall away you may not be able to bring them back because we have nothing to show or teach them that they don't already know. It isn't saying they cannot saved, it said that you cannot get them to repent.

This post is going to be long, so bear with me.

It amazes me how many people don't take the time to read and understand to whom certain epistles were written to.

Arthur W. Pink wrote one of the finest commentaries on the book of Hebrews.

And in the introduction, he writes:

1. Its Addressees.
In our English Bibles we find the words "TheEpistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews" as the address. Perhaps some of our readers are not aware that the titles found at the head of the different books of the Bible are not Divinely inspired, and therefore are not accounted canonical as are the contents.

Ignoring then the man-made title at the head of our Epistle, we are at once struck by the absence of any Divinely-given one in the opening verses. Nevertheless, its first sentence enables us to identify at once those to whom the Epistle was originally sent: see Hebrews 1:1, 2. They to whom God spake through the prophets were the children of Israel, and it was also unto them He had spoken through His Son. In Hebrews 3:1, we find a word which, however, narrows the circle to which this Epistle was first sent. It was not the Jewish nation at large which was addressed, but the "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" among them. Clear confirmation of this is supplied in the Epistles of Peter. His first was addressed, locally, to "the elect sojourners of the Dispersion (Heb. 1:1—Gk., "eklektois parepidenois diasporas"). His second Epistle (see Hebrews 3:1) was addressed, locally and immediately, to the same company. Now in 2 Peter 3:15 the apostle makes specific reference to "our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you." Thus all doubt is removed as to whom our Epistle was first sent.

2. Its Purpose.
This, in a word, was to instruct Jewish believers that Judaism had been superceded by Christianity. It must be borne in mind that a very considerable proportion of the earliest converts to Christ were Jews by natural birth, who continued to labor under Jewish prejudices. In his early Epistles the apostle had touched several times on this point, and sought to wean them from an undue and now untimely attachment to the Mosaic institutions. But only in this Epistle does he deal fully and systematically with the subject.

It is difficult for us to appreciate the position, at the time this Epistle was written, of those in Israel who had believed on the Lord Jesus. Unlike the Gentiles, who, for long centuries past, had lost all knowledge of the true God, and, in consequence, worshipped idols, the Jews had a Divine religion, and a Divinely-appointed place of worship. To be called upon to forsake these, which had been venerated by their fathers for over a thousand years, was to make a big demand upon them. It was natural that even those among them who had savingly believed on Christ should want to retain the forms and ceremonies amid which they had been brought up; the more so, seeing that the Temple still stood and the Levitical priesthood still functioned. An endeavor had been made to link Christianity on to Judaism, and as Acts 21:20 tells us there were many thousands of the early Jewish Christians who were "zealous of the law"—as the next verses clearly show, the ceremonial law.

Thus the need for an authoritative, lucid, and systematic setting forth of the real relation of Christianity to Judaism was a pressing one. Satan would not miss the opportunity of seeking to persuade these Hebrews that their faith in Jesus of Nazareth was a mistake, a delusion, a sin. Were they right, while the vast majority of their brethren, according to the flesh, among whom were almost all the respected members of the Sanhedrim and the priesthood, wrong? Had God prospered them since they had become followers of the crucified One? or, did not their temporal circumstances evidence that He was most displeased with them? Moreover, the believing remnant of Israel had looked for a speedy return of Christ to the earth, but thirty years had now passed and He had not come! Yes, their situation was critical, and there was an urgent need that their faith should be strengthened, their understanding enlightened, and a fuller explanation be given them of Christianity in the light of the Old Testament. It was to meet this need that God, in His tender mercy, moved His servant to write this Epistle to them.

3. Its Theme.
This is, the super-abounding excellence of Christianity over Judaism. The sum and substance, the center and circumference, the light and life of Christianity, is Christ. Therefore, the method followed by the Holy Spirit in this Epistle, in developing its dominant theme, is to show the immeasurable superiority of Christ over all that had gone before. One by one the various objects in which the Jews boasted are taken up, and in the presence of the superlative glory of the Son of God they pale into utter insignificance. We are shown First, His superiority over the prophets, Hebrews 1:1-3. Second, His superiority over angels in Hebrews 1:4 to Hebrews 2:18. Third, His superiority over Moses in Hebrews 3:1-19. Fourth, His superiority over Joshua, Hebrews 4:1-13. Fifth, His superiority over Aaron in Hebrews 5:14 to 7:18. Sixth, His superiority over the whole ritual of Judaism, which is developed by showing the surpassing excellency of the new covenant over the old, in Hebrews 7:19 to Hebrews 10:39. Seventh, His superiority over each and all of the Old Testament saints, in Hebrews 11:1 to Hebrews 12:3. In the Lord Jesus, Christians have the substance and reality, of which Judaism contained but the shadows and figures.

Source

So as Pink shows, this epistle was written primarily to a Jewish Christian audience that was very close to reverting back to Judaism.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Look at what the scriptures are saying it lists a few different things that seem like experiences or events in these peoples lives

1. Been enlightened
2. Tasted the heavenly gift
3. Who have shared in holyspirit
4. Tasted the word of God
5. Tasted the power of God to come

who have fallen away v6

Paul is saying "They knew the truth, they tasted heaven, they even shared in the holyghost, they understood God's word and they saw the power of God... if these people fall away you will not be able to persuade them to repent" ... because there is nothing left to show them, they've already seen it all, there is nothing left to undo their unbelief, there's nothing to teach them or show them, they already know it all and have seen all we have... there's nothing left we have that can persuade them to repent.

Paul is saying sometimes if people who used to walk with God fall away you may not be able to bring them back because we have nothing to show or teach them that they don't already know. It isn't saying they cannot saved, it said that you cannot get them to repent.

Again, A.W. Pink addresses these points:

The Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.

Second, they had "tasted" of the heavenly gift. To "taste" is to have a personal experience of, in contrast from mere report. "Tasting does not include eating, much less digesting and turning into nourishment what is so tasted; for its nature being only thereby discerned it may be refused, yea, though we like its relish and savor, on some other consideration. The persons here described, then, are those who have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transcient joy" (John Owen). The "tasting" is in contrast from the "eating" of John 6:50-56.

Opinion is divided as to whether the "heavenly gift" refers to the Lord Jesus or the person of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps it is not possible for us to be dogmatic on the point. Really, the difference is without a distinction, for the Spirit is here to glorify Christ, as He came from the Father by Christ as His ascension "Gift" to His people. If the reference be to the Lord Jesus, John 3:16, 4:10, etc., would be pertinent references: if to the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38, 8:20, 10:45, 11:17. Personally, we rather incline to the latter. This Divine Gift is here said to be "heavenly" because from Heaven, and leading to Heaven, in contrast from Judaism—cf. Acts 2:2, 1 Peter 1:12. Of this "Gift" these apostates had "tasted", or had an experience of: compare Matthew 27:34 where "tasting" is opposed to actual drinking. Those here in view had had an acquaintance with the Gospel, as to gain such a measure of its blessedness as to greatly aggravate their sin and doom. An illustration of this is found in Matthew 13:20, 21.

Third, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". First, it should be pointed out that the Greek word for "partakers" here is a different one from that used in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4, where real Christians are in view. The word here simply means "companions", referring to what is external rather than internal. It is to be observed that this item is placed in the center of the five, and this because it describes the animating principle of the other four, which are all effects. These apostates had never been "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6), still less were their bodies His "temples" (1 Cor. 6:19). Nor do we believe this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit had, at any time, wrought within them, otherwise Philippians 1:6 would be contravened. It means that they had shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations: "The place was shaken" (Acts 4:31) illustrates. We quote below from Dr. J. Brown:

"It is highly probable that the inspired writer refers primarily to the miraculous gifts and operations of the Holy Spirit by which the primitive dispensation of Christianity was administered. These gifts were by no means confined to those who were ‘transformed by the renewing of their minds’. The words of our Lord in Matthew 7:22, 23 and of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:1, 2 seem to intimate, that the possession of these unrenewed men was not very uncommon in that age; at any rate they plainly show that their possession and an unregenerate state were by no means incompatible".

Fourth, "And have tasted the good Word of God". "I understand by this expression the promise of God respecting the Messiah, the sum and substance of all. It deserves notice that this promise is by way of eminence termed by Jeremiah ‘that good word’ (Jer. 33:14). To ‘taste’, then, this ‘good Word of God’, is to experience that God has been faithful to His promise—to enjoy, so far as an unconverted man can enjoy the blessings and advantages which flow from that promise being fulfilled. To ‘taste the good Word of God’, seems, just to enjoy the advantages of the new dispensation" (Dr. J. Brown). Further confirmation that the apostle is here referring to that which these apostates had witnessed of the fulfillment of God’s promise is obtained by comparing Jeremiah 29:10, "After seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform My good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place".

Observe how studiously the apostle still keeps to the word "taste", the better to enable us to identify them. They could not say with Jeremiah, "Thy words were found and I did eat them" (Jer. 15:16). "It is as though he said, I speak not of those who have received nourishment; but of such as have so far tasted it, as that they ought to have desired it as ‘sincere milk’ and grown thereby" (Dr. John Owen). A solemn example of one who merely "tasted" the good Word of God is found in Mark 6:20: "for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly".

An Exposition of Hebrews by A. W. Pink-Chapter 24

So again, I beg to differ.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OntheHorizon

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Why would you beg me for the right to disagree? You said you were amazed that I didn't see to whom certain passages were written and then you pretty much copied and pasted some person's commentary that you couldn't even put into your own words? HAHA You were amazed at what I didn't see and you just cited commentary without even having an original thought of your own?

What it is is conjecture at it's finest, all but what it plainly reads to say. People who were never ever saved cannot fall away and cannot appropriately "renew" their repentance. There is absolutely nothing in all that you just said except conjecture over words, pedantry at it's best.

Also I was explaining from my point of view why those people cannot be renewed to repentance, not why this chapter proves OSAS wrong and if you actually cared to read all of what I said I made it absolutely clear that PAUL DID NOT BELIEVE THIS WAS HAPPENING TO THEM! I ACTUALLY SAID THAT! But you probably didn't read that... you just saw something you disagreed with and vomited your fave commentary on the subject.

I would use the whole book of Galatians to substantiate that OSAS isn't true, not Hebrews and Christians reverting to Judaism is also a fine example of why OSAS isn't true, if you go back to the law you're no longer operating in the grace of Christ and as Paul told the Galatians if you do that Christ will no longer benefit you.

What you've done is break this down into a task of defining words, not comprehending why certain statements were made, what they imply, what had to have been happening.
 
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