Yes, Many evangelicals and fundamentalists ARE bigots!

ChaseWind · Apr 11, 2013

michaelmynameIs said:
i think they hate the protesters because that is the example they are being shown - an example of anger and hate .

no ,again i say - let us give ourselves to standing FOR the GOSPEL (the good news of the lord Jesus ) and less time standing against that which is already destined for destruction .

{{{BONG}}} {{{BONG}}} {{{BONG}}} This man's a winner! Great post, Michael. Those of us who have read Baptist history in the USA know a little bit about religious liberty, not religious tolerance, but liberty. It was clearly known by the old Baptists that making Christians by law, or by established State churches, only produced hypocrites, not Christians. Did Prohibition not teach the 'evils of drink' crowd that laws do not make for moral people? It seems to me that the so-called 'Bible-believing' churches have become like the wife in Proverbs:

It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman and in a wide house. (Pr 25:24 AV)

when the body of Christ is called to be like the wife here:

The same goes for you wives: Be good wives to your husbands, responsive to their needs. There are husbands who, indifferent as they are to any words about God, will be captivated by your life of holy beauty. What matters is not your outer appearancethe styling of your hair, the jewelry you wear, the cut of your clothes but your inner disposition. Cultivate inner beauty, the gentle, gracious kind that God delights in. (1Pe 3:1-4 Message)

KWCrazy · Apr 11, 2013

You don't see true Christians protesting homosexuals. You see them protesting laws which would destroy the institution of marriage and give special rights to homosexuals. You see them protesting liberal judges demanding that institutions like the Boy Scouts allow openly gay men to camp out with their children and hold positions of authority over them. We saw how well that worked with gay priests.

Nobody is saying that you can't live a ife of sin and depravity in your own home. We're saying that we aren't going to destroy the sacred institution of marriage to accomodate deviance. If gay marriage is allowed, then a father can marry his son and hus avoid any estate taxes. If two men can marry, why not three? How can you outlaw polygamy and yet allow gay marriage? Once you destoy an institution it no longer has any meaning.

What do you suppose Jesus' reaction would have been if the Romans had demanded that He raise money and pay a tax to fund the costs of slaughtering babies? When His people oppose both the tax and the slaughter, they are called hateful bigots.

Liberals like to pretend that they support tolerance while being the most intolerant of people themselves. They won't tolerate the Boy Scouts having their own religious beliefs, they won't tolerate Chick-Fil-A for taking a stance in favor of traditional marriage, they won't tolerate Christian schools having morality and conduct rules and they assuredly won't tolerate a conservative black man in America who speaks out for what he believes.

ChaseWind · Apr 11, 2013

KWCrazy said:
You don't see true Christians protesting homosexuals. You see them protesting laws which would destroy the institution of marriage and give special rights to homosexuals. You see them protesting liberal judges demanding that institutions like the Boy Scouts allow openly gay men to camp out with their children and hold positions of authority over them. We saw how well that worked with gay priests.

Nobody is saying that you can't live a ife of sin and depravity in your own home. We're saying that we aren't going to destroy the sacred institution of marriage to accomodate deviance. If gay marriage is allowed, then a father can marry his son and hus avoid any estate taxes. If two men can marry, why not three? How can you outlaw polygamy and yet allow gay marriage? Once you destoy an institution it no longer has any meaning.

What do you suppose Jesus' reaction would have been if the Romans had demanded that He raise money and pay a tax to fund the costs of slaughtering babies? When His people oppose both the tax and the slaughter, they are called hateful bigots.

Liberals like to pretend that they support tolerance while being the most intolerant of people themselves. They won't tolerate the Boy Scouts having their own religious beliefs, they won't tolerate Chick-Fil-A for taking a stance in favor of traditional marriage, they won't tolerate Christian schools having morality and conduct rules and they assuredly won't tolerate a conservative black man in America who speaks out for what he believes.

I think Jesus said to give unto the government its due tax. So, that government never killed babies? As to the purity of the marriage you speak of, I suggest you check out a post in this Baptist Forum within the last 24 hours about a heterosexual marriage. I've been waiting to see how this Christian forum was going to respond to that!

The more I listen to you guys, the more inclined I am to change my view on gay marriage and support it!

SoulBap6 · Apr 11, 2013

ChaseWind said:
We must know what defines a bigot and Webster's does a good job for us.

1913 Webster's Dictionary
"A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion."

To do something blindly means without preparation, experience, or knowledge. To be obstinate is to hold stubbornly and perversely to an attitude or opinion against reason.

To be a "bigot" is to act contrary to the biblical instructions given us.

The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God. Blessed are those who have no reason to condemn themselves because of what they approve. (Ro 14:22 NRSV) [This refers to 'anything', not just food, v21]

You want control on end of life issues, make a living will or medical directive for yourself and stop meddling in the affairs of others. You don't approve of any abortion, then don't have one! You see homosexual acts as sinful, don't do them, but mind your own business.

He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears. (Pr 26:17 AV)

Now we hear that you have some among you living quite undisciplined lives, never doing a stroke of work, and busy only in other peoples affairs. (2Th 3:11 Philips)
or
For it has come to our ears that there are some among you whose behaviour is uncontrolled, who do no work at all, but are over-interested in the business of others. (2Th 3:11 BBE)

Even with those who are our friends and neighbors, do not intrude to the point of meddling or being an obnoxious presence.

Let your foot be seldom in your neighbors house, otherwise the neighbor will become weary of you and hate you. (Pr 25:17 NRSV)

To label religious meddler a bigot may be clear and true discernment, but condeming someone to hell, as many do in the evangelical community, is forbidden judging!

Yes, Many evangelicals and fundamentalists ARE bigots!

It can be said that all who have a religion is a Bigot, Webster is not only talking about Evangelicals and fundamentalists. When someone truly believes that what they believe is the true belief, your going to have a hard time of it trying to change their mind. Pointing out just Evangelicals and fundamentalists is being Bigoted, when their are so many more religions that are the essence of this definition. In a broader sense what we as Christians believe is taken on faith and trust in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8 If stand on foundational truths is being Bigoted then we all our bigots.

strelok0017 · Apr 11, 2013

How many of us are really trying to be Christlike and care about people more than rules? I know that the first post is wrong on many points but I felt that it was the spirit of it. I'm not against but for fundamentalism but we must be careful. Some can Biblically support that persecuting gay community, for example, is spiritual and a taste of judgement so they can repent. Others can Biblically prove that it is not so but if we are to love our enemies, we must love everyone and they need us to be Christ like, not Moseslike.

Calling sin a sin is a righteous judgment if done in love. Maybe that can help the OP. Many people, including me often, are guilty of just calling truth love instead of having truth in love.

ChaseWind · Apr 11, 2013

SoulBap6 said:
Yes, Many evangelicals and fundamentalists ARE bigots!

In a broader sense what we as Christians believe is taken on faith and trust in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8 If stand on foundational truths is being Bigoted then we all our bigots.

The key for me is "foundational truths". There is basic agreement on salvation among the various historic denominations as you read their doctrinal standards, such as the Westminster Confession or the ThirtyNine Articles of the Anglicans. The rub comes on topics not clearly discussed in Scripture.

The question of abortion, and the facts of when a human being becomes a person are not clearly set out in Scripture. Sincere Christians can differ on that. For the anti-abortion group to call someone having an abortion in the 1st trimester a "murderer", is bigoted, ignorant, and can't be proven from the Scriptures. Many Christians do not believe a human person exists at conception, but at a time later.

The word and concept of "homosexual" never appeared in a standard English translation until 1946, and that was the RSV, which removed the word in the 1972 Revision because it was a misleading translation. When you read the commentaries from centuries past, of the pertinent Scriptures, you do not find an understanding of those passages that fits how many so-called 'Bible-believers' teach those passages today. Again, it is an area where sincere Christians disagree on what to think about the gay question. Of course, male-female, man-wife FOR LIFE, is the biblical order. Yet, in this complicated world we call "fallen", how do you deal with all the complexities that do not necessarily fall into the moral-immoral dimension? Only a "bigot" would be stubborn and obnoxious saying he knows all about these things and can judge a righteous judgment on other Christians in these gray or unclear areas.

SoulBap6 · Apr 11, 2013

The word and concept of "homosexual" never appeared in a standard English translation until 1946, and that was the RSV, which removed the word in the 1972 Revision because it was a misleading translation. When you read the commentaries from centuries past, of the pertinent Scriptures, you do not find an understanding of those passages that fits how many so-called 'Bible-believers' teach those passages today. Again, it is an area where sincere Christians disagree on what to think about the gay question. Of course, male-female, man-wife FOR LIFE, is the biblical order. Yet, in this complicated world we call "fallen", how do you deal with all the complexities that do not necessarily fall into the moral-immoral dimension? Only a "bigot" would be stubborn and obnoxious saying he knows all about these things and can judge a righteous judgment on other Christians in these gray or unclear areas.

I see now the real issue, the question of Homosexuals and its exception in the Christian Community. The life style of Homosexuals is what the objection is, Men with Men and women with women. In our society today is that this life style is being forced upon people who our not Homosexual and forced to by law to be tolerant or go to Jail. The goal is very apparent. It not whether we agree or disagree following the Law of the land. The Marriage issue and Partners as normal married couples Man and woman having the same rights, is another hot issue is it complex? If you read the Bible no, but if you go with society yes.

It is not the person but the sin, that's if you believe it is a sin? Many people our on the fence yes or no on this issue? The freedom to choose will be taken away by the courts soon with all the legislation and law suites, that being said how do you like being told you will be tolerant and we don't care if you like it or not! if you will not accept this we will force you to do so. It will come to that soon, what ever your attitude is it won't matter.

DeaconDean · Apr 11, 2013

michaelmynameIs said:
we are called to preach the good news - not coerce change by force of the will of the flesh .

the weapons of our warfare are NOT CARNAL but SPIRITUAL ...
if you use carnal methods you will pitt flesh against flesh and you will not walk in the Spirit of God ,which is LOVE .Nor will you ever win a soul for the lord .

Now who here is or has said anything about forcing our will upon others?

Jesus plainly said:

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Mt. 7:20 (KJV)

That's not judging them, that's looking at their fruits.

And did not the Apostle Paul say:

"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." -Rom. 1:32 (KJV)

Now I have a niece who is openly gay. And I have spoken to her of the consequences of her sin. And left open the door for the Spirit to do His perfect work.

I have not forced my views or pounded her about her lifestyle. I even still extend to her Christian love.

But I also when Charlotte NC had their Gay Pride Day, I was among those who protested.

Unfortunately, I am a Fundy, and often Fundy's are associated with the likes of the "Westboro Baptist Church".

One bad apple spoils the bunch.

Its not "biggotry" to stand up for God says.

God Bless

Till all are one.

ChaseWind · Apr 11, 2013

DeaconDean said:
That's not judging them, that's looking at their fruits.

And did not the Apostle Paul say:

"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." -Rom. 1:32 (KJV)

It is telling what you skipped over to point the finger at gays here:

They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. (Ro 1:29-31 NRSV)

DeaconDean · Apr 11, 2013

ChaseWind said:
It is telling what you skipped over to point the finger at gays here:

They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. (Ro 1:29-31 NRSV)

Now if you want to get technical, does Paul not say also:

"Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;" -Rom. 1:24-28 (KJV)

The Apostle Paul talks about those who practice this lifestyle.

By practicing the homosexual lifestyle, they are guilty of idolatry. THey are worshipping the creation rather than the creator.

And this:

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:" (vs. 29-31)

Are just some of the other fruits of sin.

So I am well within my right as a American citizen, and a citizen of heaven to speak my mind.

Jesus called a spade a spade, and so did Paul.

And I don't do it hatefully or forcably.

And I repeat, it is not biggotry to stand up for what God has revealed in His holy word.

And I will stand up for that!

But I am seeing how this thread is going, and its not good for me to be here.

Sodom and Gomorrah will have something to complain about on the great judgement day.

So rather than being on the bad end of this conversation, I'll just bow out gracefully.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Alithis · Apr 12, 2013

Its not "biggotry" to stand up for God says.

i accept the point that you are making in that line . but in truth are folks who forcefully stand in protest against gays and gay laws standing up for what God says .. or what they desire by the will of the flesh ?

God says to preach the gospel to every creature . yes gays are in sin i do not deny that ,never will BUT..so were every one of us before we were saved !

never did God say "hate one particular group of sinners" never did he tell us to hate ..im not saying "you " hate .

just pointing out the principles

phoenixdem · Apr 12, 2013

michaelmynameIs said:
i accept the point that you are making in that line . but in truth are folks who forcefully stand in protest against gays and gay laws standing up for what God says .. or what they desire by the will of the flesh ?

God says to preach the gospel to every creature . yes gays are in sin i do not deny that ,never will BUT..so were every one of us before we were saved !

never did God say "hate one particular group of sinners" never did he tell us to hate ..im not saying "you " hate .

just pointing out the principles

It isn't hate to point out sin regardless of the flavor it's in. It is all too common for sinners to start yelling hate when people point out that Hell is a real place and repenting of cherished sin is necessary for redemption. That is what God told us to do.

catch21wide · Apr 12, 2013

We are not to hate the sinner, but we are to hate the sin. Since we are to hate the sin, we as Christians should be trying our best to stop that sin from spreading. As far as religious liberty is concerned; we are living in a time where our liberties are being taken away at a faster rate than ever before. Liberals are trying to fix it to where preachers cannot preach against homosexuality. They want us to be tolerant toward sinful practices and we get called bigots for preaching against it. If we want to get really technical, the Bible says that we shouldn't associate with those who practice sinful pleasures. We shouldn't tolerate being called a bigot for standing up for what's right in the eyes of God, nor should we call others bigots for fighting against us for their beliefs. I will continue to preach that America has become the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah and the only reason why God hasn't destroyed us is because of the few righteous people who call upon God for mercy. This is what's wrong with the church now. All the infighting amongst the brethren has pushed to church to the edge. Let's band together as children of God and let's fight Satan's forces.

DeaconDean · Apr 12, 2013

catch21wide said:
We are not to hate the sinner, but we are to hate the sin. Since we are to hate the sin, we as Christians should be trying our best to stop that sin from spreading. As far as religious liberty is concerned; we are living in a time where our liberties are being taken away at a faster rate than ever before. Liberals are trying to fix it to where preachers cannot preach against homosexuality. They want us to be tolerant toward sinful practices and we get called bigots for preaching against it. If we want to get really technical, the Bible says that we shouldn't associate with those who practice sinful pleasures. We shouldn't tolerate being called a bigot for standing up for what's right in the eyes of God, nor should we call others bigots for fighting against us for their beliefs. I will continue to preach that America has become the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah and the only reason why God hasn't destroyed us is because of the few righteous people who call upon God for mercy. This is what's wrong with the church now. All the infighting amongst the brethren has pushed to church to the edge. Let's band together as children of God and let's fight Satan's forces.

Now where have I heard that before?

Call me a bigot!

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean · Apr 12, 2013

Somewhere in this thread, somebody made mention of the NIV.

I do not use it when teaching or preaching for, I have found some obvious mistakes in it.

Read 1 Cor. 7:1 (NIV) against the KJV or the Greek and tell me where the error is.

Now if that is the versioin your most comfortable with, fine, God bless you, by all means use it.

Its just not for me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Alithis · Apr 13, 2013

phoenixdem said:
It isn't hate to point out sin regardless of the flavor it's in. It is all too common for sinners to start yelling hate when people point out that Hell is a real place and repenting of cherished sin is necessary for redemption. That is what God told us to do.

quite right ,it is not .. when it is done IN LOVE..and it is love to share the hope we have in Christ JESUS ..telling every one the good news .. the whole Good news .what the unbeliever yells out .. the unbeliever will yell out .it does not change the commission we have

BeforeThereWas · Apr 22, 2013

ChaseWind said:
...I do think any civilized society has laws against rape and that is not in question.

Many consider America and Europe civilized, and yet both are killing the unborn at rates never before seen. That's speaks of a civility I can't quite see as being anything other than an oxymoron.

...In the USA, we do not have "religious tolerance", we have RELIGIOUS LIBERTY! To tolerate presumes a superiority of your view over others. In the USA none is superior to others under our law.

With liberty on center stage, you're right. However, in the realm of absolutes, the lines of comparison melt away under the heat of overwhelming evidence to fact that they can't all be equal where TRUTH is concerned.

BTW

DeaconDean · Apr 23, 2013

michaelmynameIs said:
quite right ,it is not .. when it is done IN LOVE..and it is love to share the hope we have in Christ JESUS ..telling every one the good news .. the whole Good news .what the unbeliever yells out .. the unbeliever will yell out .it does not change the commission we have

Seems to me I reemmber reading in the Gospels:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." -Mt. 23:27 (KJV)

Jesus didn't pull no punches, He called them like He seen them.

So why should we?

For the sake of "political correctness"?!?

God Bless

Till all are one.

standingtall · Apr 23, 2013

DeaconDean said:
Read 1 Cor. 7:1 (NIV) against the KJV or the Greek and tell me where the error is.

OK, I'll bite. The NIV (and ESV), states "not to have sexual relations with", and the KJV states "not to touch".

Other that the obvious difference in wording, do you believe that the KJV literally means "never touch (non-sexually) a woman"?

chiwawa · Apr 23, 2013

I agree with the OP. We cannot stop people from sinning, we cannot legislate Christianity. What we can do is spread Christianity with love, not with judgement. Once a sinful person is a Christian, then a righteous lifestyle can be taught. Not the other way around.

We cannot force non-Christians to act Christ-like. That, is bigoted.

Yes, Many evangelicals and fundamentalists ARE bigots!

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