Your stand on homosexuality?

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Yahu

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A "gays" are practicing homosexuals. As such they are unregenerate (1 Corinthians 6:9).
[/CENTER]

Doesn't matter "if they understand the meaning of Christian". As 1 Corinthians 6 (above) informs us, they are on their way to you know where.

So, as regards their sin, it's ongoing and continuous.

If any "Christian" is habitually drunk, or is a practicing adulterer, then they're no better than gays ! And no Christian.
ABSOLUTELY FALSE!

That teaching is a blatantly false doctrine. You have to understand the difference between sanctification and salvation. A gay can be saved but not sanctified. They can gain entrance into the kingdom but not inherit within the kingdom. They may even be excluded from the heavenly city, ie 'outside the walls'. Those in abominable sin even after salvation don't loose salvation but loose any eternal rewards. They are just among the lowest caste in the heavenly kingdom and will lack the overcomers rewards. For example they will have no robe of righteousness.

The other thing to understand is other people will be down in the lower castes with them for their lack of love and for teaching false doctrines. The very first problem to overcome in the Rev 2&3 maturity scale is 'lack of love'. If people don't overcome that problem, they will be right down there with all the saved homosexuals, adulterers, sorcerers, ... in the eternal kingdom. They may make it into the outer gates of the city but denied access through the inner gates or have access to the tree of life that lines the city streets. That position is just one step above the homosexuals unless they repent of their ways.

Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


You have to overcome 'lack of love' and follow the commandments to gain entrance to the inner city. "Dogs" in Hebrew is a reference to homosexuals or homosexual temple prostitutes of the pagan sexual practices. Men that sleep around with lots of women fall into the same category.

It is the level of spiritual maturity you reach and the progress on your sanctification process to overcome error in your life that determines your level of glorification within the eternal kingdom. If you want to shoot for gardener or janitor, then that is your option. Some of us are shooting for the greater positions like 'ruler over nations', 'priests', or 'kings' that share the throne room. Those are positions of authority within the kingdom. Only those that overcome the major errors within this life gain those levels of eternal rewards. You have to overcome problems like false doctrines, lack of love, persecution, Jezebel, 'little strength', and of course being lukewarm.

I pity people like that when they will have to face the judgement seat of Christ. You don't seem to understand that Yeshua was fellowshipping with harlots and tax collectors, the lowest outcasts of the religious of His day.

Concern yourself with your own beam. Don't run around as a spiritual baby slapping all the other spiritual babies.

Scripture is clear that being a meddlesome busybody in the matters of other men's lives ranks right up with murderer, thief and evil doer. We are to put people like that out of fellowship for their error. People like that want to usurp invalid authority over other people's lives. That is the sin of witchcraft and puts them right down there with the error of homosexuality.

This thread is pretty much the same conflict presented in Galations. There were two extremes, those in 'greasy grace' (claiming grace to live in sin) and those in 'bondage to law' (ie Phariseeism). Paul was clear the correct position was dead center between the two extremes and being led by the Spirit. We are to use the law to teach us and help identify sin in our life and have grace for the areas we fail while the Holy Spirit leads us into spiritual maturity by overcoming areas of sin. This is a common tactic of the enemy. They divide the position of Yah to two polar extremes that battle each other and anyone not on their own extreme. The anti-christ spirit is the one that leads those into religious bondage while Satan is on the total rebellion end. BOTH extremes are demonic that only see the error of the opposite extreme and attack anyone not on their own extreme.

I will leave you with a quote from Job when dealing with his pagan friends that followed false gods.

Job 26:4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

And Yah's response later.

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

My primary spiritual gift is discernment of spirits. I suggest you do some spiritual house cleaning of your own or you will be joining the fate of homosexuals in the eternal kingdom. The prophetic word in my sig was one that came for a Presbyterian pastor's daughter that behaved as you do. At least she repented for her actions for attacking the 'unrighteous', repented of following 'Kingdom Now' theology and of being a Jezebel. She confronted her parents for teaching false doctrines. They also repented before their own congregation and brought revival to their church then were all tossed from their parent denomination for rejecting core false doctrines of the denomination.

It's not your job to fix other people in error unless they are under your authority. That is the Holy Spirit's job with the help of those called as prophets. To do so without that calling is being a false prophet.

Re 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 
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How often is regularly? Where is that line between regularly drunk (sinning non-Christians) and irregularly drunk (sinning Christians)? how many times a year can a Christian get drunk (or any sin) before they are no longer a Christian?

Luther's dictum of sinning boldly is based on the Reformation doctrine of simul iustus et peccator *1.

Even as Christians we retain a sin nature and, thus, continue to sin.


The core of "Sin Boldly" was stated by Luther as:

"No sin can separate us from Him,
even if we were to kill or commit
adultery thousands of times each
day"

In no way did Luther tell Believers to commit serial murder or adultery ! Dr. Martin's point being there are no sins too bad, or too often, that Christ cannot cover them.

This dictum, therefore, is more about Christ than about us.



If you sin out of weakness, or out of ignorance (we often sin without knowing it), we can be "bold" about it. Christian don't have to hide in shame. As long as we are repentant, it doesn't affect our relationship with our Lord.

This in contrast to the Fundie *2 teaching that sin breaks our relationship with God.

Luther isn't teaching antinomianism ! He's teaching the power of Christ over sin.

---------------------------------------------------------

*1 = (Latin) "Simultaneously just and a sinner". The Scriptural and Reformation concept that a person can be a sinner in practice yet viewed as just by God.

*2 = A fundamentalist. Fundamentalism a.) Originally, a movement reacting to liberalism and modernism which argued for a return to the basic Biblical principles of Christianity, b.) More recently an anti-intellectual reaction against Liberalism / Modernism and doctrinal Christianity favoring Relational Theology. Almost always Arminian, and frequently also anti-creedal. Often pietistic to a pharisaic degree.
 
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Yahu

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leaping in though its not to me -

methinks your missing the point ..it is about the difference between a repentant and a non repentant heart

There is also a difference between a christian still in bondage to a specific sin and a non-believer.

It is a matter of deliverance from the demonic stronghold in their lives. It may take years to overcome some of the strongholds within us. Some may never be overcome because staying in the sin can bring about physical death to a believer.

If you don't have on your breastplate of righteousness, the enemy has the ability to attack and kill us by Yah's own law. A homosexual that is unrepentant risks Yah removing His hedge of protection and allowing the enemy to kill the unrepentant because homosexuality carries a death penalty under biblical law. The demonic realm is very legalistic. If Yah declares a consequence, they have the right to carry it out. Now Yah always gives a believer the opportunity to come to repentance. Some may still struggle with the problem for a long time before they overcome.
 
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ABSOLUTELY FALSE!

That teaching is a blatantly false doctrine. You have to understand the difference between sanctification and salvation. A gay can be saved but not sanctified. They can gain entrance into the kingdom but not inherit within the kingdom. They may even be excluded from the heavenly city, ie 'outside the walls'. Those in abominable sin even after salvation don't loose salvation but loose any eternal rewards. They are just among the lowest caste in the heavenly kingdom and will lack the overcomers rewards. For example they will have no robe of righteousness....

Some theologues, Yahu, might vary that formulation a little. The risingspirit would place "Atonement" and "Regeneration" after "predestined us", and change the wording of "gave us the gift of faith" to "conversion" or the more clear "gifted us with repentance and faith". I would also add "sanctification" after "justified us". (Justification, additionally, is simultaneous with conversion.) As well as Calling before Conversion, and Predestined prior to "created us".

Corrected, it would look like this:


Foreknew and predestined (Elected) us unto salvation
prior to creation of the physical universe.

Created the world; created the Old Testament saints.

Gifted OT saints with repentance and faith; justified them.

Christ's atonement and perfect life of obedience.

Sanctified them.

Glorified them.

Created the New Testament saints.

Gifted NT saints with repentance and faith; justified them.

Sanctified them.

Glorified them.

Bodily resurrection of all the saints.



As you can see, a comprehensive Ordo Salutis is a little more complicated. Mainly differentiating between OT and NT saints.

Their ultimate salvation being the same, but the time is a bit different. As the Old Testament saints were born before Jesus' incarnation, yet saved by grace through faith in Him just like we are.

Also, predestination always occurs before creation of the world ("He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:4a).

In the ordo salutis, justification and sanctification are different and separate. The former an event occurring upon our conversion. The latter a process which is ongoing AFTER conversion, and only finalized upon our glorification in Heaven.

The only sense upon which we are sanctified when we're justified being that Christ's perfections are imputed to us. But sanctification regards our inhering righteousness, and -as such- can only occur AFTER our positional righteousness (justification).

Conflating the two (justification and sanctification), then, usually is a way of making us deserve salvation.
 
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QueSi

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RisingSpirit said:
Luther's dictum of sinning boldly is based on the Reformation doctrine of simul iustus et peccator *1.

Even as Christians we retain a sin nature and, thus, continue to sin.

The core of "Sin Boldly" was stated by Luther as:

"No sin can separate us from Him,
even if we were to kill or commit
adultery thousands of times each
day"

In no way did Luther tell Believers to commit serial murder or adultery ! Dr. Martin's point being there are no sins too bad, or too often, that Christ cannot cover them.

This dictum, therefore, is more about Christ than about us.

If you sin out of weakness, or out of ignorance (we often sin without knowing it), we can be "bold" about it. Christian don't have to hide in shame. As long as we are repentant, it doesn't affect our relationship with our Lord.

This in contrast to the Fundie *2 teaching that sin breaks our relationship with God.

Luther isn't teaching antinomianism ! He's teaching the power of Christ over sin.

---------------------------------------------------------

*1 = (Latin) "Simultaneously just and a sinner". The Scriptural and Reformation concept that a person can be a sinner in practice yet viewed as just by God.

*2 = A fundamentalist. Fundamentalism a.) Originally, a movement reacting to liberalism and modernism which argued for a return to the basic Biblical principles of Christianity, b.) More recently an anti-intellectual reaction against Liberalism / Modernism and doctrinal Christianity favoring Relational Theology. Almost always Arminian, and frequently also anti-creedal. Often pietistic to a pharisaic degree.

Ok, you've confused me. You said this "If any "Christian" is habitually drunk, or is a practicing adulterer, then they're no better than gays ! And no Christian." Then this "As long as we are repentant, it doesn't affect our relationship with our Lord". A habitually drunk person, adulterer or gay person can repent.
 
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... A habitually drunk person, adulterer or gay person can repent.

No man wants to repent and all wants to sin. Repentance comes after God first regenerates the Elects. The unregenerates don't care nor even know God at all, meaning they'll never know it since their hearts are still in stone and never softened.
An non-elect never repents. They don't want to.
 
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Yahu

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Some theologues, Yahu, might vary that formulation a little. The risingspirit would place "Atonement" and "Regeneration" after "predestined us", and change the wording of "gave us the gift of faith" to "conversion" or the more clear "gifted us with repentance and faith". I would also add "sanctification" after "justified us". (Justification, additionally, is simultaneous with conversion.) As well as Calling before Conversion, and Predestined prior to "created us".

Well this is another disagreement between us. We are gifted Grace NOT Faith. It is His grace and our faith.

This is clear in the Greek. Greek has gender agreement with 'gift' and 'grace' not with 'faith'. Specifically we are saved by faith through grace (that is a gift). We have to have our own faith to be brought to salvation.

We are all justified by the cross. The Holy Spirit leads us in spiritual growth that is the sanctification process to renew our mind and overcome error as we grow. The glorification is the results of that process.

There are 3 salvations. The spirit, the soul and the body. The spirit is saved at a one time event when we repent and accept Yeshua's sacrifice. The Holy Spirit then draws us closer by saving (active process) our soul (mind, will, emotions) to become more christlike and manifest the fruits of the spirit by following the laws of the kingdom and the 'be attitudes'. That process goes on the rest of our physical life. Then our body is saved at the resurrection, when we get our glorified body. Then we gain the rewards of our sanctification at the judgement seat of Christ and are given our position within the kingdom. Some will be vessels of honor in the Father's house and some vessel of dishonor, not fit for His use. Our works will be judged as wood, hay, stubble that fail the testing of fire or as silver and gold that does.

Homosexuality is one of those sins that will hinder spiritual growth but so is gossip. We are accountable for how far we progress in that spiritual growth process. It is led by the Holy Spirit but we MUST follow and overcome error to gain the rewards of the overcomer.

Salvation (of the spirit) is just the beginning of the journey, not the final destination by a works base salvation. Too many confuse the salvation of the soul with entrance into the kingdom. Yeshua grants us entrance by His sacrifice and the gift of Yah's grace while the position we gain within that kingdom is totally up to us as a reward for how far we grow into spiritual maturity.

Those in the resurrection will vary greatly in personal glory (the amount of Yeshua's glory we reflect within our own lives). Some will shine as the sun or vary as the stars. Some will be poor (lacking heavenly riches), blind (lacking insight) and naked (lacking robes of righteousness) while others will hold positions of great authority within the kingdom. Some will share the throne room while others are cast into the 'outer darkness (shade)' because they lack any personal glory. That is the back pew of heaven so to speak.

Sure we should exhort people to grow and overcome but not attack those still in error. So the question is, do you give grace to those in sin and get grace in return or do you stand in harsh judgement of others and get judged by the same harshness in return? Do you help lead people into righteousness or operate as an 'accuser of the brethren'?

That is a reflection on your spiritual maturity. No I don't condone homosexuality but I don't condone attacking homosexuals either telling them they can't be saved. Both are indications of spiritual immaturity.
 
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Yahu

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My stand on homosexuality is this, I do not condone it, but I know people who are, they are related to me but I still love them I don't approve but I still Love them. I pray that the will change someday!

IMO that is the correct position to take.
 
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....I suggest you look into Morrowism. That is the middle ground. Instead of TULIP verses PEARS, it is GRAPE.....

Sour-Grapes.jpg


Missing from Yahu's doctrine of the Atonement is the fact of God's omniscience.

Sour GRAPEs has failed to factor-in that the Supreme Being foreknows the fate of the reprobate.

Now, if the Risingspirit correctly comprehends his thinking here, Yahu cannot agree that God makes a sincere offer of salvation to those He knows are unable to accept it.

But -in point of fact- there's NOBODY in their native and natural condition able to accept the Gospel offer !

In each and every case, no one can (or really wants to) respond affirmatively to the General Calling.

So there's nothing special about the Elect vis-a-vis the non-elect [reprobate] in this regard. BOTH classes are lost sinners who can't (and don't) want Christ to save them !

Those whom Christ atoned for [the Elect] being in exactly the same position as the reprobate in relation to the "sincere offer" of the General Calling.

And, Omniscient God foreknows this !

He also knows whom He will bring to salvation despite themselves.

This because they aren't saving themselves ...even by the minimal causation of their generating faith... but because He gifts them with the requisite faith.

Hence the General Calling is a "sincere offer" in both instances (i.e., to the Elect and to the non-elect). Their inability notwithstanding.

Nor does He have to atone for them to offer them atonement. Remember: Omniscient God foreknows they can't muster Saving Faith.

It's sort of like one of us making a bet with someone who we know will lose. E.g., "I bet you a million bucks you can't recite the Gettysburg Address !". We don't have the million bucks, yet we are certain that they don't know the Gettysburg Address.

( An awkward example, but it works. )

The point of the General Calling as it pertains to the reprobate being that it: a.) proves they won't "accept Christ" even if given the chance, and b.) increases their condemnation.

They ain't atoned for, however they don't have to be atoned for because God in His omniscience foreknows they won't take Him up on this "sincere offer".

Still, it's a sincere offer of salvation due to the fact that -if they did- He would. But, of course, they won't. And, He KNOWS they won't !

They whole point of the exercise being to remove all excuse that "they didn't have a chance".

As far as Yahu's argument about the Elect having to be certain of their election...

Our salvation isn't conditional upon our personal assurance of it.

We can be justified before the Lord without even having heard of the doctrine of divine election !

As part of our subsequent sanctification we are improved doctrinally as well as morally. And an aspect of this is learning about things like Election.

Yet we don't save ourselves. Nor is our salvation dependent upon what we know about divine election.

Nobody has complete and total faith, anyway. Our faith in Christ is intertwined with our assurance of His saving us ...which, in turn, connects with our realization of our election.

Saving Faith, though, is NOT utter and absolute faith. Nor does it require a complete assurance of our personal election.

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror" (1 Corinthians 13:12 NIV), and our present spiritual situation is that our faith is a "hope" (v. 13 NASB, NIV, NKJ; cf Romans 4:18, Romans 8:24, et. al)

As John Calvin pointed out, it suffices that we have a Scriptural faith. From this it can be reasonably inferred that our faith is salvific (and, thereby, we are Elect). Absolute certitude doesn't enter into anything we -as finite creatures- know !
 
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ActionJ

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Ya'll need to get off the "BLB" Express !


blind+leading+the+blind.jpg



A "gays" are practicing homosexuals. As such they are unregenerate (1 Corinthians 6:9).

Doesn't matter "if they understand the meaning of Christian". As 1 Corinthians 6 (above) informs us, they are on their way to you know where.

So, as regards their sin, it's ongoing and continuous.

If any "Christian" is habitually drunk, or is a practicing adulterer, then they're no better than gays ! And no Christian.

We aren't saying Christians can't sin. Indeed, we expressly deny Perfectionism. But, in 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul is referring to habitual fornicators, and unrepentant adulterers, and practicing homosexuals.

The issue here being repentance. The repentant constantly struggle with their sin. Whereas the unrepentant aren't much bothered by it. Thus it becomes a regular part of their lifestyle.

You're correct in so far that people regularly drunk, or routinely fornicating, are in no better situation than gays. Nobody should fool themselves into thinking that drunks and fornicators somehow can be Christian while gays cannot.

^^^^^What he said!!^^^^:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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Alithis

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Multicultarism does not work no matter the circumstances. The "Queer" culture is demoralizing our society and bringing more diversity which is the last thing we want. We already have to deal with those minorities. (blacks, Spics, Asians, Jews ect)

say huh? wot?
 
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ActionJ

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What is "promotion?"

In my opinion it would be anything that would further the "cause" of the homosexual community or political lobby. It would paint homosexuality as a perfectly acceptable (or even attractive) "lifestyle" on par with heterosexuality. That type of "promotion" is an invention of man and is contrary to the teachings of the Bible.
 
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KatySmith

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Yes, the Bible says homosexuality is a sin.

But the Bible also says:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay that girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22:28-29

According to the Bible, the man that raped me when I was fifteen years old should be my husband.

My point is, the Bible condemns and condones things that now, 2000 years later, we have the wisdom to see through.

Homosexuality is natural and it occurs in nature among our animal cousins. Yet the Bible condemns it.

Rape is violent, and it took part of my childhood away from me. Yet the Bible condones it.

Let's not be so quick to judge those different from ourselves.
 
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ActionJ

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=KatySmith;62844296]Yes, the Bible says homosexuality is a sin.

But the Bible also says:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay that girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22:28-29

According to the Bible, the man that raped me when I was fifteen years old should be my husband.
You're comparing Old Covenant regulations that were designed by God to regulate the activities and the society of a specific people -- the Israelites. That Covenant has ended and has been replaced by the New Covenant written in the blood of Jesus Christ.

My point is, the Bible condemns and condones things that now, 2000 years later, we have the wisdom to see through.

Homosexuality is natural and it occurs in nature among our animal cousins. Yet the Bible condemns it.
The Bible (both Old and New Testaments) condemns murder, theft, and false witness as well. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. Killing is "natural" in the animal kingdom so does that make murder acceptable in today's society?

Rape is violent, and it took part of my childhood away from me. Yet the Bible condones it.
The Bible and Jesus Christ do not "condone" violent rape. That's a misnomer.

Let's not be so quick to judge those different from ourselves.
We "judge" folks all the time. We all agree that Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Jeffery Dahmer, Charles Manson, etc. are guilty of heinous crimes. They are all "different from ourselves." The Bible does tell us not to judge a person's salvation. That's a job for Christ alone.
 
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Smithed,
What an awesome testimony! Thank you. I thank God that he was able to convict you and rid you of the sin. My biggest irritation with gays is when they claim to be born that way. I know some have a sexuality problem, but some have just jumped on the bandwagon.
 
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ActionJ

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Smithed,
What an awesome testimony! Thank you. I thank God that he was able to convict you and rid you of the sin. My biggest irritation with gays is when they claim to be born that way. I know some have a sexuality problem, but some have just jumped on the bandwagon.

Amen. What folks fail to remember is that we are all "born sinners." None of us are sinless. The important thing to remember is that we're all called to repent of our sin and to turn to Christ.
 
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I have gay desires, but God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord is setting me free. It is a painful process. I can not even look at unclean material on the internet any more, for when I do I feel sick to my stomache. People have told me I shouldn't just wait for God to change me, I had to change myself. But that was a lie. I had to put my total trust in God for a change to stick. This is so painful, though.
 
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Alithis

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I have gay desires, but God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord is setting me free. It is a painful process. I can not even look at unclean material on the internet any more, for when I do I feel sick to my stomache. People have told me I shouldn't just wait for God to change me, I had to change myself. But that was a lie. I had to put my total trust in God for a change to stick. This is so painful, though.

may i ask in what manner you find it painful ?
 
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