were in daniel ch 9 does it talk about the anti christ???

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 27, 2002

To jbenjesus and parousia70,
I've been warned of your extensive education. Maybe you are experts in History. But what I see is that you are tripping over it, just like celtic does. You can't create the future out of the past. God made the end from the beginning. He knows His plan. I would be careful. History is good to know, but you can't live in the past. Remember, God told Lot and his family not to look back, but Lots wife looked back anyway, and she turned into a pillar of salt. LOL - I just thought I would throw that in, no offense.

Now lets look at the problem with your theory.

The Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69 weeks. And then you say that the 70th week begins consecutively, or right away. But then you go back 3 1/2 years for Jesus' ministry, and say that the Apostles preached for 3 1/2 years after that. Well - the only way to accomplish this theory, would be to back-up the 70th week 3 1/2 years. This would force the 69th and 70th weeks to overlap, and make it 69 1/2 weeks, instead of 70 weeks. So this must be where you think Jesus confirms a covenant with the many for one week.

This is impossible, and it is false teaching. There are several problems with this nonsense. First off, the Apostles preached for well over 3 1/2 years. Second, there was no abomination that caused desolation then. Third, Jesus never confirmed a seven year covenant with anyone, at all.

For someone to believe this nonsense, he would also have to believe that we have already gone through the seven year tribulation. And not only that, but he must also believe that we have already gone through the thousand years of peace, also known as the millenium, or the Lords day, or the Sabbath. This is where we enter into Gods rest. A thousand years of true peace, no wars at all, and Jesus will be the Mighty King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And we will reign with him. I didn't even mention some of the other things that are missing, like The two witnesses in Jerusalem, who will prophesy in the first half of the tribulation, and be able to stop the rain. And why did we never see the 144,000 sealed from the twelve tribes of Israel??? And why didn't the Mount of Olives split in two, when Jesus feet touched down and there was supposed to be a mighty earthquake. This theory is the doubting Thomas theory, because those who believe in it are lacking faith that God will do what He promised to do. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet they believe.. Isn't this the theory that believes that we are already in the Kingdom of God on earth??? HOG WASH! ! !

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 27, 2002

Also, when you go back 3 1/2 years, it would be impossible for the abomination that causes desolation to be in the middle of the 70th week. This would cause it to be in between the 69th and 70th weeks, which would make it at the beginning of the 70th week, or the end of the 69th week.

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 27, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER

Hello celtic,
It's me again, the pain in your side,LOL. It would now appear that you are asking a trick question. I answered your question. And now that I have, you are changing it on me. This prophecy is about the 70 weeks of sevens. NOW - in Daniel 9, you see Messiah cut off, after only 69 weeks of sevens. Where is the 70 th week?? - - - You should remember that this is a mystery. You now say that because the bible doesn't talk about this all over the place, then it must be false. If that is correct, then Daniel must be a false prophet. But that is not correct. That would be the same as asking - Where is the name of Jesus in the entire Old Testament? There will be a 70th week - or Tribulation - or Jacobs Trouble, but it is a mystery. This is not all about AD 70.
If Daniel was a false prophet, then why would he be quoted by Jesus in Mathew, Mark and Luke?? Lets take a look. And you tell me if this is still about AD 70.

Matt. 24:15-22 - "So when you see standind in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the PROPHET DANIEL -- let the reader understand --- then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back and get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--- and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect - those days will be shortened."

If you want more : Mark 13: 14-20 and Luke 21 : 20-22. And yes, you could still make the claim that Mathew, Mark, and Luke were false teachers, but if you believe that, you might as well throw your bible in the trash.

So, the 70th week will come, and it will come like a thief in the night, so be ready. I should say the rapture will come like a thief, but that would bring more arguing. Just let me say, that no one will know the day or hour of the rapture, but they will know when the 70th week begins, and you could also calculate when the second coming would be after you were able to see what day the tribulation (70th week) began. So long friends.

ALSO - I'm still waiting for someone to answer this

jbenjesus · Feb 27, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
To jbenjesus and parousia70,
I've been warned of your extensive education. Maybe you are experts in History. But what I see is that you are tripping over it, just like celtic does.

I do not consider myself an expert in the least on history. But I did study it to help me understand what was being spoken in the Old Covenant.

Now lets look at the problem with your theory.

The Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69 weeks. And then you say that the 70th week begins consecutively, or right away. But then you go back 3 1/2 years for Jesus' ministry, and say that the Apostles preached for 3 1/2 years after that. Well - the only way to accomplish this theory, would be to back-up the 70th week 3 1/2 years. This would force the 69th and 70th weeks to overlap, and make it 69 1/2 weeks, instead of 70 weeks. So this must be where you think Jesus confirms a covenant with the many for one week.

You have misinterpreted what we said. I looked over what I said and that is not what I said. To be clear, from the decree of the temple to Messiah is a total of 69 weeks. Not to Messiah's death, but to His presentation to Israel as the promised Messiah (that was His baptism in the river Jordan, thereafter He started His ministry as the witnessed and proclaimed Messiah by John the Baptist). His ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years.

After the 69 weeks, meaning in the last week cause there's only one week left, specifically 3 1/2 years into the last week, He is cut off (crucified). What you have written makes no sense and is not at all what I said. The last 3 1/2 years of the last week run out completing the last week of the 70 weeks, ending with Stephen's stoning, approximately anyway.

This is impossible, and it is false teaching. There are several problems with this nonsense. First off, the Apostles preached for well over 3 1/2 years. Second, there was no abomination that caused desolation then. Third, Jesus never confirmed a seven year covenant with anyone, at all.

For someone to believe this nonsense, he would also have to believe that we have already gone through the seven year tribulation. And not only that, but he must also believe that we have already gone through the thousand years of peace, also known as the millenium, or the Lords day, or the Sabbath. This is where we enter into Gods rest. A thousand years of true peace, no wars at all, and Jesus will be the Mighty King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And we will reign with him. I didn't even mention some of the other things that are missing, like The two witnesses in Jerusalem, who will prophesy in the first half of the tribulation, and be able to stop the rain. And why did we never see the 144,000 sealed from the twelve tribes of Israel??? And why didn't the Mount of Olives split in two, when Jesus feet touched down and there was supposed to be a mighty earthquake. This theory is the doubting Thomas theory, because those who believe in it are lacking faith that God will do what He promised to do. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet they believe.. Isn't this the theory that believes that we are already in the Kingdom of God on earth??? HOG WASH! ! !

I'm not even going to get into your last paragraph. There's too much you assume because you know it all already. Your not even willing to consider.

But that's ok. I've been where your at and have fought just like you about it. Only Jesus can reveal these things to open heart. One who's willing to be taught, and humble enough to learn.

I don't know it all. I do know what I've shared. I have so many more questions, and I try not to be assumptive anymore. I want the Word of God to construct my paradigm. Not a fictional book or movie.

The pre-trib theory has only been around since the 1830's. It's not even as old as our country. Bet you didn't know that did you?

jbenjesus · Feb 27, 2002

Luke 17:26-36 - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Jesus gives two examples of what the days of the Son of Man shall be like. He used Noah and Lot. Judgment was brought about by the flood to destroy all of the wicked, unrepentant of the world. Noah and his family were not destroyed, but they entered the ark, and were LEFT BEHIND on earth.

Lot went out from Sodom and the judgment destroyed Sodom. But Lot was LEFT BEHIND on earth, as well. Yet many in Christianity use this verse to say that this is what the rapture will be like. Yet they conveniently put aside the fact that Noah and Lot were actually LEFT BEHIND, not taken away.

Luke 17:32-33 - Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Lots wife turned into salt for looking back. Jesus said remember her and dont even think of keeping your possessions, but go and flee to the mountains.

Matthew 24:16-18 - Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

He spoke this to the Jews and said this applies to your generation.

Matthew 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Is there any question that This generation refers to the people He was speaking to presently? Since this is true, a biblical generation is 40 years. He spoke this in the years between 30-33 A.D. You add forty years you get 70-73 A.D. We cant put this aside as a coincidence either.

Luke 17:34-36 - I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Look at the words used in this scripture: one shall be taken, the other shall be left. Noah and Lot were never taken. The unrepentant wicked were taken by the judgment that befell them. Noah and Lot were left (LEFT BEHIND). Thats scripturally interpreting what the verse said and not allowing it to say what we want it to say.

***Lastly:
Parallel passages sometimes give a better, bigger picture of what was said and conveyed.

It doesn't say what is the abomination that makes desolate in Daniel.

Daniel 12:11 - And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

It doesnt tell us in Matthew, either, what is the abomination of desolation.

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mark 13:14 - But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

We don't know exaclty what it is either, but we do know Jesus warned them when they see "the abomination of desolation" that they should flee to the mountains.

But in Luke

Luke 21:20 - And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

When Jerusalem is encompassed with armies, then they would know that the desolation is about to happen, the desolation of the city and the sanctuary (Daniel 9:26). Rome surrounded Jerusalem for 3 ½ years causing the inhabitants of the walled city, Jerusalem, to suffer famine, pestilence, sword and fire (look in Ezekiel for that prophetic fulfillment).

The abomination of desolation or the abomination that makes desolate was the Roman army surrounding the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD and bringing the judgment of God on the Jews that crucified and rejected Jesus and His gospel for the last 40 someought years. The Christians actually fled to the mountains when the city was first surrounded by Vespasian (in 66 AD), because they understood Jesus' warning. The unbelieving Jews didn't.

Historically, we know the end result in 70 A.D. This is becoming far too coincidental that the words that Jesus and the prophets spoke have come to pass, vividly.

parousia70 · Feb 27, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
To jbenjesus and parousia70,
I've been warned of your extensive education. Maybe you are experts in History......... You can't create the future out of the past.......This theory is the doubting Thomas theory, because those who believe in it are lacking faith that God will do what He promised to do.

I'm no expert in history either But The only way we can be absolutely confident in the future s by KNOWING the past.
We can, and DO, base our confidence in Gods word for our future by the Biblical self evidence that, in the past, when God said he'd do something, He ALWAYS did it exactly How, and WHEN He said he would.That being true, we can know without a doubt that God never fulfills his prophesy any other way.
He does exactly WHAT he says He'll do, exactly how and WHEN He says He'll do it, without fail, EVERY time.

Now,lets look at the problem with your theory.

The Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69 weeks.

No. Messiah was cut off AFTER the 69th week had already ended.
There is z e r o scriptural suport for any assertion that the crusifixion of Christ was the event that ended the 69th week.
z e r o.

jben did such a good job with some of your next points that I see no need, at this time, to even attempt any elaboration, however, I would like to address a couple more:

Jesus never confirmed a seven year covenant with anyone, at all.

What you don't seem to understand here is that the 7 year time frame is on the Confirmation and not on the covenant itself.
Jesus Confirmed the EVERLASTING covenant specifically ,and exclusively, to the jews, through His 3.5 year Earthly ministry (the FIRST HALF of the 70th week) and through His apostles subsequent 3.5 years ending approxamately, as jben said, with the stoning of Stephen and the freeing of the eternal gospel to the gentiles.

.....The two witnesses in Jerusalem, who will prophesy in the first half of the tribulation...

Ahhhh the two witnesses. There are far greater problems with maintaining that the prophesy of the 2 witnesses is yet future. Here's just one I found back when I was questioning my own futurist beliefs:

"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8).

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men. ...They always fill up the measure of their sins" (I Thess. 2:14-16).

In the consistent futurist doctrine, all people who call themselves Jews today are left wide open to being automatically viewed with special suspicion by Christians. Futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," and on the other hand they must remain a blood-guilty race of enemies who are opposed to all men, and whose Metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled.

In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then tread under foot for 42 months (Rev. 11:2). During that Great Tribulation which culminated in the destruction of the City and the Sanctuary in A. D. 70, the wrath of God against the Jews had come to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and the Jews had paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last cent (Lk. 12:54-59). When the fleshly covenant-nation was disinherited as God's covenant people in 70, God's wrath against her was finished. After that day, the Jews became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). And there is not one class (or "race") of man today that is in any sense accepted or rejected by God because of their DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ.

And finally:

Isn't this the theory that believes that we are already in the Kingdom of God on earth??? HOG WASH! ! !

The Kingdom of God IS on earth today and ALL CREATION is today fully subject to Jesus the King.
To believe anything else is a lie.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

All emphasis above are mine.

Where you are = ON EARTH

Where the Kingdom of God is = within YOU (on earth)

My Brother, if you care to rebut my post point by point and show me from scripture where I am wrong, I would be most grateful for, As a truth seeker, I am bound to disregard ANY of my held "doctorines" in favor of Scriptural TRUTH.

Are you?

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 27, 2002

Hello jbenjesus,
I think that it would now be appropriate that you prove that the end of the 69th week ended when Jesus was baptised. He was not cut off from anything in the river Jordan. The Messiah was cut off after He made His Triumphal entry into Jerusalem. It was there that He was rejected as their Messiah, and cut off only to the Jews. But then the church was born, and Jesus didn't die. The church is the body of Christ, and He lives.

KJV - Dan. 9:26 _ "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end there of shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

And so we can easily see that He was not cut off at His baptism.
This is false teaching, and I would re-study this. The abomination will be as the first one was, by Antiachus or simalar, not by the Jews, that is laughable.

parousia70 · Feb 27, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
I think that it would now be appropriate that you prove that the end of the 69th week ended when Jesus was baptised.

Thats easy! (of course refuting futurism usually is)

Daniel 9:25
"Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks"

Daniel prophesied in verse 25 that from the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of the Messiah is 483 years (69 weeks). The question comes to "which decree is it?"

Here are the decrees:

The Decree of Cyrus - about 536 BC
* Ezra 1:2-4 Cyrus sends folks out to build the temple.
* The math: 536 - 483 = 53 BC.
* Guess what? No Messiah in 53BC.

The Decree of Artaxerxes - about 534 BC
* Ezra 4:17-22 Artaxerxes' decree here is actually to stop building and wait, not to start.
* Scratch that one.

Haggai and Zechariah Prophesy
* Ezra 5:1-3 Here Zerubbabel and Jeshua build, but no decree is mentioned.
* Scratch that.

Darius quotes Cyrus - about 520 BC
* Ezra 6:1-5 Darius simply quotes Cyrus, but in vv. 6-12, Darius sends out a decree.
* The math: 520 - 483 = 37 BC (some say 33BC...it's close enough I reckon).
* Maybe this was when Theudas popped up?
* Scratch this one, no Messiah.

Ezra 6:14
* "According to the commandment of God, of Cyrus, of Darius, and of Artaxerxes they builded and finished it."
* But look carefully at the decree above of Artaxerxes. His decree was to stop building and wait.
* So they couldn't have been talking about his decree.

Decree of Artaxerxes - 458 BC
* Ezra 7:12 - 26 Artaxerxes makes the decree.
* The math: 483-458 = 25, but there was no 0 AD nor 0 BC, so that makes 26 AD.
* What happened in 26 AD?

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Messiah the Prince came and the Spirit, like a dove, descended upon Him. So began the ministry of Jesus Christ, signifying the END of the 69th week. No other event fits the 483 year timeline, no matter how hard you try.

The abomination will be as the first one was, by Antiachus or simalar, not by the Jews, that is laughable.

I think it would now be appropriate for YOU to prove from SCRIPTURE that:
a)More than one Abomination of Desolation was prophesied.

b)Antiochus Epiphanies fulfilled Daniels Abomination of Desolation in any way shape or form.

YBIC,
P70

parousia70 · Feb 27, 2002

Oh Yeah...... Almost forgot Thunder,

You mentioned verse 26:
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,.."

Messiah shall be "cut off" (Hebrew "Karath" meaning "cut off, eliminate, kill, destroy, to permit to perish)

Messiah shall be "cut off" (crucified) AFTER the 69th week.
Thats right, AFTER the 69th week had already ended.

Now, from what I understand, you are claiming that Jesus' Crusifixion was the event that marked the end point of the 69th week, but scripture is quite clear that the crusifixion was to happen AFTER the 69th week had ALREADY ended.
Time to re-think your timeline.

Jesus was crucified 3.5 years AFTER He was baptized.
In the Midst of the 70th Week, His Once for all sacrifice on the cross caused the need for all other sacrifice and offerring to CEASE. Exactly as Daniel prophesied.

Jesus fulfilled the 70th week.

Peace,
P70

celtic_crusader · Feb 28, 2002

Okay, I'll wait Celtic. But while I'm here, let me ask you one more question, if you don't mind.

Who set up the first abomination in the temple??

Hello "THUNDER"

,
This is a good question and it would depend on wether you meant the first of many abominations in the temple or are you referring to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and Jesus.

If your referring to the AoD, am the first to admit that my ideas on the abomination of desolation spoken of by denial and Jesus are not positive and I need to study it further.

I do have Ideas though!

Hear is a statement by P70 that I totally agree with 100% percent as you would to thunder.

Daniel Prophesied ONE AoD, and Jesus confirmed that, as of His ministry, Daniels prophecy had NOT been fulfilled in any way shape or form, that it 's fulfilment was yet future at that time He spoke.

Jesus spoke about the AoD spoken by danial and it hadnt come yet but I suspect it was in 70 ad or before as there were terrible things happening in Jerusalem in her siege in 70 ad (like mothers eating there babies for food???).

It would now appear that you are asking a trick question. I answered your question. And now that I have, you are changing it on me.

THUNDER,
Not so, let me show you.

Before the question you read concerning the 7 yr antichrist in Dan 9 not being there I was talking to you about another issue that got by you.

Read it again and you will see that I wasn`t sidestepping at all but had actually asked you earlier if you could tell me of other places in the bible besides Dan 9 that speaks of this 7 yr trib. time period.

Look sees

a requote by me from earlier in the thread to you thunder???

What I dont see though and I would appreciate someone showing me, without using denial ch 9;

Were do Christians get a figure of 7 yrs for the antichrist????

I need to know because the Vatican papacy reign is so obviously the anti Christ of scripture and it has been in place since the falling away of the Roman Empire. 1500 yrs at least and fulfils so much of bible prophesy that to not see it is to miss most all of bible prophesies ability to understand things.

So, the question for all is;

Were do Christians get a figure of 7 yrs for the antichrist???? (Without using Daniel ch 9 to do it)?????

Please, why does the whole Christian church believe in a 7 yr Tribulation and antichrist reign?????????????

Dan 9; 26
As for the rest of that post thunder, well, I think that it was likely fulfilled in 70 ad when Titus destroyed the city and the sanctuary and the end of Jerusalem was as a flood and until the end of that war (siege on the walls of Jerusalem for more than 3yrs) and there were horrible desalations caused by 70 ad.

then in verse 27 he goes on to talk about the messiah again and how he will confirm his covenant with his people (the children of god).

At the end of 27 it states;

And "for" the overspreading of abominations (he is talking about the Jews hear that crucified jesus and the prophets).

Jesus even said, your house is left unto you desolate and denial predicted that he would say it.

Dan 9; 27
For the overspreading of the Jews abominations Jesus shall leave it desolate.

Well this literally happened at the power of Jesus words to them as he left the temple and said to them, "your house is left unto you desolate.

Then Jesus says, You will not see me again until you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord."

But denial says, you will be left desolate even until the consummation (the end)."

And this has been fulfilled.

I figure it is most likely that the AoD was Rome standing in the holy place because it was Rome who destroyed the sanctuary and temple and city and wiped out the Jews.

That leaves me with a curious question as I am uncertain;

What is the AoD???

Is it future or past???

Thunder, read all of Dan ch 8, it makes it pretty clear that it was the Roman Empire that fulfilled this prediction.

Hear is a cut from the chapter

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and he took the daily sacrifice away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

THUNDER, then it tells us exactly what the interpretation is and it specifically points to the Roman Empire as the one that will come with an army and the Roman army is the abomination that causes desolation.

Read and see that it is defiantly talking about the army of Rome.

I will add some history to help understand.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.(alexander the great)

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.(alexanders 4 genrals stood up and took his kingdom of greece but not with his power)

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

I believe that this is most likly the same visions as the other visions of daniel that are dealing with the rise and fall of world empires and it always goes like this.

babylon
media-persia
greece
Rome
10 kings and little horn.

all of his visions have these rise and falls of the world empires , all one after another.

this ch 8 prophesy is simply saying the same thing.

it was Rome that came after the 4 generals greek reign and the Romans did precisly and exactly as daniel pradicts.

it makes it real hard to see it in the future when you know it has passed

daniel also talks about a determined time for the jewish people to get there acts together before the massiah comes because desalations are determined for isreal AT JESUS FIRST COMING

The destruction of the temple in AD 70 came after the crucifixion of Jesus. And now, since I have answered your question, here is one for you. When Jesus was cut off, what seven-year (or 70th week) covenant were the Jews under?? Good luck

The 70 weeks were a determined time from the rebuilding of the second temple after there Babylonian captivity.

The Jews were always under mosses covenant though until jesus the messiah , were jesus established a new covenant with his people and now Israel is gods chosen people through his son jesus whom is a Jew which makes us Jews too, if the messiah is our lord brother. Jesus confirmed the new covenant and it all fits perfectly into Daniels predictions.

I dont want to stretch my post any longer though: D

THUNDER, I hope I have covered most of your questions but if I am missing anything, please let me know.
You keep me on my toes thunder: cool:

Celtic.

jbenjesus · Feb 28, 2002

Originally posted by celtic_crusader

Thunder, read all of Dan ch 8, it makes it pretty clear that it was the Roman Empire that fulfilled this prediction.

Hear is a cut from the chapter

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and he took the daily sacrifice away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

THUNDER, then it tells us exactly what the interpretation is and it specifically points to the Roman Empire as the one that will come with an army and the Roman army is the abomination that causes desolation.

Read and see that it is defiantly talking about the army of Rome.

Jben would disagree hear I think???

Yes I do, and I explained that chapter 8 of Daniel talks nothing of the Roman Empire. It is about the kingdom of Medo-Persia and Greece.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Celtic.

Here again is my post concerning chapter 8:

To me, Daniel 9:27 does not at all correlate with Daniel 8:11-13. The 70 weeks went beyond the kingdom of Greece into the 4th kingdom, Rome.

In verse 8, chapter 8, it says,

Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The goat was figurative representation of the kingdom of Greece (the third kingdom). The great horn that was broken was representative of the king of Greece, more specifically, Alexander the Great.

The "four notable ones" are the 4 generals that reigned over the kingdom of Greece when Alexander died. These four divided up the kingdom into 4 pieces. Out of one of these four, came a little horn. A ruler rose up out of the divided 4 piece kingdom of Greece.

Verse 9, chapter 10-14 (for the meaning read verse 15-27 which explains this vision that Daniel sees) says,

And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

This "little horn" in history is know as Antiochus Epiphanes IV. He caused the daily sacrifice to cease in the temple. He desescrated the temple by entering it and sacrificing swine on the altar and erecting a statue of Zeus. He told the Jews not to worship their own God, but his. He also decreed that they should not sacrifice anymore. This caused the Jewish uprising known as the Maccabean revolt.

After Antiochus Epiphanes IV issued the decree and stopped the sacrifices, 2300 days later, one of the sons of Maccabeaus (forgot his name), who started the revolt, cleansed the temple and initiated sacrifices to the Holy One of Israel, again.

This all took place in the reign of the kingdom of Greece. It's all history.

It truly is amazing at how precise and detail the Lord was in His prophecies and their coming to pass.

celtic_crusader · Feb 28, 2002

jben,
I agree with your account of history and bible up to Antiochus.

I can`t see how Antiochus can be the AoD because jesus spoke of him and he hadn`t come yet.

the prophesy wasn`t just about greece either , it starts out with media -persia.

what you say about Antiochus is true but he didn`t bring desolations to the jews the Roman empire did in 70 ad. Antiochus failed in his feeble attempt to arraticat judaisim were as the romans succeeded in fillfilling all of this prophesy.

I also disagree that Antiochus is the little horn in other places in danial.

one question that may clear this up jben is this;

if it was Antiochus , how come jesus spoke of danials pradiction as though it was in the future and probably Rome???

as you know , Antiochus was well and truely dead by this time.

I love your historical awearness though jben, it makes it easyer to see what you are saying the bible is talking about , so , if you feel I am still wrong , I would be interested in your response to my question.

celtic

parousia70 · Feb 28, 2002

Jben,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you are saying that because Danile 8 is Speaking of Greece, and NOT Rome, that the "Little Horn" here (Antiochus) is not "one in the same" as the "AoD" in Ch.9. That they are 2 distinct and seperate "events".
You in fact are not claiming Antiochus fulfilled Daniels AoD in any way, Yes?

If I understand correctly, Then I agree.
Thanks for the insight

P70

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 28, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
[B}

Matt. 24:15-22 - "So when you see standind in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the PROPHET DANIEL -- let the reader understand --- then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back and get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--- and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect - those days will be shortened."

If you want more : Mark 13: 14-20 and Luke 21 : 20-22. And yes, you could still make the claim that Mathew, Mark, and Luke were false teachers, but if you believe that, you might as well throw your bible in the trash.[/B]

Okay parousia70,
This is getting old fast, but you want proof that there will be another abomination that causes desolation. You are so positive that it already happened right??? I think I have found a easier way to prove this point. Even a third grader can understand it now. It is from the same quote as before, but now I will try to shine a different and brighter light on the subject, so you can't miss it.

This abomination that Daniel spoke of was in the future, but now that you claim that it was Jesus, that now makes it the past. Do we agree so far?? If there is no other abomination coming, then why do Mathew, Mark, and Luke expect another one?? Did they miss the one you claim happened?? When they wrote there gospels it was after the crusifiction... Maybe the Disciples were stupid right, or maybe they were foreigners that knew nothing about Jerusalem... And guess what else, they were saying that it would be in the future also. You were right that the first abomination was Antiochus, but there is still another one coming, and it's coming wether you believe it or not. Oh - and the disciples were no dummies, they were quoting Jesus.

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 28, 2002

Antiochus was from Greece, and not Rome. This was the first and only abomination to date. There were other desolations, but there was only one other abomination. There was no abomination in AD 70, but there was a dispersion, or scattering of the Jews. BUT, there is still an abomination coming friend.

Wildfire · Feb 28, 2002

I'm arriving late here as usual, and I have to aree with thunder; there is another abomination of desolation that we are warned of. The first one took place and now the second one is coming. We are told what to look for in the new testiment;
When you see jeruselam encompassed (surrounded) with armies, know that the desolation is nigh (close).
Watch the news; that country has become a suicide a day bloodbath. My guess is that the abomination that is set up in Jeruselam will be a military catastrophe; a bomb. That is why people are told not to look back; flee to the mountains, woe to the mothers that give suck in those days; what a terrible thing it will be if it is a nuclear attack. Anyone consider this possibility? The evidence is already there.

jbenjesus · Feb 28, 2002

Originally posted by celtic_crusader
jben,
I agree with your account of history and bible up to Antiochus.

I can`t see how Antiochus can be the AoD because jesus spoke of him and he hadn`t come yet.

I never said Antiochus Epiphanes IV was the famous AoD of Daniel 12:11. Antiochus Epiphanes IV is the "little horn" of Daniel chapter 8. There is not question about that.

You are right. Jesus said it had not happened yet, in the days of His flesh, but He did prophecy that it would take place in "this generation" that He spoke to. That's why 70 AD is the prophetic fulfillment of Jesus' words to "this generation" as well as Daniel 12:11.

the prophesy wasn`t just about greece either , it starts out with media -persia.

I said in the previous post in blue, in your quote, that Daniel 8 is first about Medo-Persia and then Greece. But it is not about Rome. That "little horn" came in the latter time of the kingdom of Greece. I'll show you this scripturally as Daniel is being given understanding of the vision of the goat and ram (2 kingdoms).

Daniel 8:21-23 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia : and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. [This is Alexander the Great - the first king of Greece.] Now that being broken [referring to Alexander the Great's death] , whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation [These four are the 4 generals of Alexander, they were not his sons, that took over when Alexander the great died.] , but not in his power [not in his power was in reference to his kingdom not going to his sons] . And in the latter time of their kingdom, [At this point, when it says in the latter time of their kingdom (their meaning the 4 generals, the kingdom has not changed (the 3rd kingdom of Greece), it is speaking of the latter time of the kingdom of Greece! Not Rome. Rome does not enter into the picture of Daniel chapter 8.] when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, [This king is Antiochus Epiphanes IV.] and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. [Emphasis added are mine ]
what you say about Antiochus is true but he didn`t bring desolations to the jews the Roman empire did in 70 ad. Antiochus failed in his feeble attempt to arraticat judaisim were as the romans succeeded in fillfilling all of this prophesy.

I also disagree that Antiochus is the little horn in other places in danial.

The "little horn" in Daniel 8 rose from the 4 part kingdom of Greece. He is Antiochus Epiphanes IV because this "little horn" did not rise from the kingdom of Rome.

one question that may clear this up jben is this;

if it was Antiochus , how come jesus spoke of danials pradiction as though it was in the future and probably Rome???

as you know , Antiochus was well and truely dead by this time.

I love your historical awearness though jben, it makes it easyer to see what you are saying the bible is talking about , so , if you feel I am still wrong , I would be interested in your response to my question.

celtic

That's my response. I hope it clears any misunderstanding. If not, ask, and I'll try to clarify.
Sorry about the size. I didn't mean for that to come out so large. Don't interpret that as I'm mad or something.

To Wildfire:

You would agree with Thunder because you don't recognize that the word Jesus spoke to "this generation" were already fulfilled in 70 AD. The AoD that was spoken in Daniel 12:11 was the same one Jesus referred to.

Now we are going to teach and preach 2 AoD's. When will the fulfillment end. It never will according to you guys.

jbenjesus · Feb 28, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER

Okay parousia70,
This is getting old fast, but you want proof that there will be another abomination that causes desolation. You are so positive that it already happened right??? I think I have found a easier way to prove this point. Even a third grader can understand it now. It is from the same quote as before, but now I will try to shine a different and brighter light on the subject, so you can't miss it.

This abomination that Daniel spoke of was in the future, but now that you claim that it was Jesus, that now makes it the past. Do we agree so far?? If there is no other abomination coming, then why do Mathew, Mark, and Luke expect another one?? Did they miss the one you claim happened?? When they wrote there gospels it was after the crusifiction... Maybe the Disciples were stupid right, or maybe they were foreigners that knew nothing about Jerusalem... And guess what else, they were saying that it would be in the future also. You were right that the first abomination was Antiochus, but there is still another one coming, and it's coming wether you believe it or not. Oh - and the disciples were no dummies, they were quoting Jesus.

Can you answer this below:

Luke 17:26-36 - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Jesus gives two examples of what the days of the Son of Man shall be like. He used Noah and Lot. Judgment was brought about by the flood to destroy all of the wicked, unrepentant of the world. Noah and his family were not destroyed, but they entered the ark, and were LEFT BEHIND on earth.

Lot went out from Sodom and the judgment destroyed Sodom. But Lot was LEFT BEHIND on earth, as well. Yet many in Christianity use this verse to say that this is what the rapture will be like. Yet they conveniently put aside the fact that Noah and Lot were actually LEFT BEHIND, not taken away.

Luke 17:32-33 - Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Lots wife turned into salt for looking back. Jesus said remember her and dont even think of keeping your possessions, but go and flee to the mountains.

Matthew 24:16-18 - Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

He spoke this to the Jews and said this applies to your generation.

Matthew 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Is there any question that This generation refers to the people He was speaking to presently? Since this is true, a biblical generation is 40 years. He spoke this in the years between 30-33 A.D. You add forty years you get 70-73 A.D. We cant put this aside as a coincidence either.

Luke 17:34-36 - I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Look at the words used in this scripture: one shall be taken, the other shall be left. Noah and Lot were never taken. The unrepentant wicked were taken by the judgment that befell them. Noah and Lot were left (LEFT BEHIND). Thats scripturally interpreting what the verse said and not allowing it to say what we want it to say.

***Lastly:
Parallel passages sometimes give a better, bigger picture of what was said and conveyed.

It doesn't say what is the abomination that makes desolate in Daniel.

Daniel 12:11 - And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

It doesnt tell us in Matthew, either, what is the abomination of desolation.

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Or Mark...

Mark 13:14 - But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

We don't know exaclty what it is, but we do know Jesus warned them when they see "the abomination of desolation" that they should flee to the mountains.

But in Luke

Luke 21:20 - And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

When Jerusalem is encompassed with armies, then they would know that the desolation is about to happen, the desolation of the city and the sanctuary (Daniel 9:26). Rome surrounded Jerusalem for 3 ½ years causing the inhabitants of the walled city, Jerusalem, to suffer famine, pestilence, sword and fire (look in Ezekiel for that prophetic fulfillment).

The abomination of desolation or the abomination that makes desolate was the Roman army surrounding the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD and bringing the judgment of God on the Jews that crucified and rejected Jesus and His gospel for the last 40 someought years. The Christians actually fled to the mountains when the city was first surrounded by Vespasian (in 66 AD), because they understood Jesus' warning. The unbelieving Jews didn't.

Historically, we know the end result in 70 A.D. This is becoming far too coincidental that the words that Jesus and the prophets spoke have come to pass, vividly.

Any comments? Or will you disregard it wholly?

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 28, 2002

Hello again parousia70,
This is the answer I am giving for yesterdays question. Even though I already answered you this morning, but that was because you are answering for your buddies.

I don't know were your teachings come from, but they are DEAD ON ARIVAL. They remind me of what the Jehovahs Witnesses believe. Are you a J.W.???

You can't even fit Ezekiel 38 into your theory, because according to your time frame, we've been out of time for almost 2000 years now. If we were to go by the bible and combine that with your theory, Then we are over 900 years too late in seeing the angel come down from heaven, and chain Satan up for 1000 years. It just won't fit. Ezekiel 38 is supposed to happen somewhere around the time of the tribulation (70th week), but it would have already happened if we go by your theory. It's almost 2000 years too late. And thats not even mentioning the Gog and Magog war of Rev. 20: 7-10, which occurs when the thousand years are over and Satan is released to deceive the nations again. That will be 3000 thousand years late. Your theory makes Gods prophets look like liars. You say make sure I read your stuff, and go back and read it again, but I can already tell it doesn't jive. I have a choice here, either believe what the Lord has revealed to me, or get tripped up by your false teachings. What do you think I am going to choose??

If this is the long awaited kingdom that you think it is, then your God has no power. You bring one idea in to fit just one chapter, and it only makes more problems elsewhere. In fact, problems are multiplying with your theory. And I only thought of a few. There would be many more problems with others.

You must not believe in the rapture, or where Jesus catches up all believers in the clouds, a meeting in the air (1 Corr. 15 : 51-55). Your theory has no victory, and no hope for the future. I'm pretty much through with this thread, it's time to move on to greener pastures. No hard feelings fella's. I wasn't attacking you personally, just your theory.

rollinTHUNDER · Feb 28, 2002

You are really reaching for stars jbenjesus,
The abomination is a false God (IDOL) that they are forced to worship.

I don't ever remember anything being said about the Romans surrounded Jerusalem in Jesus' day. What, were they fearful to attack?? And even if these things did happen like you say, it still doesn't fit with all the other prophecies to come. It only makes a bigger mess out of the whole thing.

were in daniel ch 9 does it talk about the anti christ???

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