The Present State of Israel - in prophecy

hiscosmicgoldfish · Apr 11, 2013

In fact, I'm even prepared to state on record that Dispensationalism is a doctrine of such extreme absurdity and misinterpretation, that its adherents are likely to have missed the entire meaning of the Bible as a whole and I do in fact question whether or not they even understand New Testament Christianity in its veritable reality.

I think that dispensationalism is a man-concocted theory. But I also think that the re-gathering of the Jews is part of the divine plan. They say that they are Ashkenaz Jews, but I don't know what to think of that. No one knows where the tribes of Israel went, fizzled out.

I think the problem is that people take things to extremes, and I don't think there will be a Jewish dispensation, or restored Israel, except that it will include the Gentiles, predominantly, the resurrection saints from the ages, I don't think there is more than one resurrection, that happens at the return of the Lord.
There might be a new earth altogether. I think the Gentiles replaced national Israel, although there is still a covenant in place with the Jews.

1disciple · Apr 11, 2013

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
In fact, I'm even prepared to state on record that Dispensationalism is a doctrine of such extreme absurdity and misinterpretation, that its adherents are likely to have missed the entire meaning of the Bible as a whole and I do in fact question whether or not they even understand New Testament Christianity in its veritable reality.

I think that dispensationalism is a man-concocted theory. But I also think that the re-gathering of the Jews is part of the divine plan. They say that they are Ashkenaz Jews, but I don't know what to think of that. No one knows where the tribes of Israel went, fizzled out.

I think the problem is that people take things to extremes, and I don't think there will be a Jewish dispensation, or restored Israel, except that it will include the Gentiles, predominantly, the resurrection saints from the ages, I don't think there is more than one resurrection, that happens at the return of the Lord.
There might be a new earth altogether. I think the Gentiles replaced national Israel, although there is still a covenant in place with the Jews.

Alright. I'm perfectly content to discuss the issue. The only thing I need to know is upon what scriptures you base this idea of a future 're-gathering' of ethnic Jews. You might just be the sort of person who will not post 50 Brazilian verses from Jeremiah all at once. Hopefully, you are that sort of person.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Apr 11, 2013

1disciple said:
Alright. I'm perfectly content to discuss the issue. The only thing I need to know is upon what scriptures you base this idea of a future 're-gathering' of ethnic Jews. You might just be the sort of person who will not post 50 Brazilian verses from Jeremiah all at once. Hopefully, you are that sort of person.

I wrote some stuff, but my computer is playing up and deleted what I wrote. Perhaps if you'v got time, you could give examples of why you think that ethnic Jews were not re-gathered, or maybe it already happened?
At the moment I think that the founding of Israel is central to the prophetic clock.

1disciple · Apr 11, 2013

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
I wrote some stuff, but my computer is playing up and deleted what I wrote. Perhaps if you'v got time, you could give examples of why you think that ethnic Jews were not re-gathered, or maybe it already happened?
At the moment I think that the founding of Israel is central to the prophetic clock.

It's simple, really. The prophecies concerning the ingathering of the people of Israel have already been long fulfilled. I'm asking for scriptures that prove some future re-gathering 2,000 years after Christ. If you can find some, I'd be interested to read them.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Apr 11, 2013

1disciple said:
It's simple, really. The prophecies concerning the ingathering of the people of Israel have already been long fulfilled. I'm asking for scriptures that prove some future re-gathering 2,000 years after Christ. If you can find some, I'd be interested to read them.

Ezekiel 36:24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you

Jeremiah 32:37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I ...

Ezekiel 20:34 I will bring you from the nations and gather you from ...

doesn't seem to be talking about Babylon or Assyria, but nations. says somewhere 'from the northern lands'... Russia.

found it...

Jeremiah 31:8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north and ...

1disciple · Apr 11, 2013

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
Ezekiel 36:24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you

Jeremiah 32:37 I will surely gather them from all the lands where I ...

Ezekiel 20:34 I will bring you from the nations and gather you from ...

doesn't seem to be talking about Babylon or Assyria, but nations. says somewhere 'from the northern lands'... Russia.

But Ezekiel is a prophet during the very captivity concerning which he is prophecying. God speaks of the captivity already being a reality and the restoration from that captivity being the next prophetic event. This was fulfilled with the edict of Cyrus in 536 B.C. Jeremiah is referring to the same restoration which would pave the way for the coming of Christ in the 1st century A.D. There is nothing here about northern lands. Are you confusing this with the prophecy of Gog and the Land of Magog that was prophesied to swoop down on Israel from the north?

Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. -- Ezekiel 36:17-19

Are you suggesting that in the future, modern Israel (that cannot even trace its own tribal lineage and has absolutely no possibility of ever being able to restore any legitimate Levitic priesthood) will begin to corporately worship Baal, turn the Temple of Jerusalem (that doesn't exist) into an Asherah shrine, be taken into captivity by the Assyrians and Babylonians and then be restored 70 years later according to prophecy? In the future? Are you serious? Why then did Daniel the prophet conclude that the 70 year captivity prophesied by Jeremiah the prophet was coming to an end in 537 B.C.? Not only are these things not future, they were fulfilled more than 2,500 years ago.

To say that these things are yet in the future is to completely write off the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther and Daniel. If you throw those books out of the Bible and completely ignore all historical records from King Zedekiah onwards (including the entirety of the New Testament), you might just be able to warp Ezekiel and Jeremiah enough to conjecture a future restoration of ethnic Jews of some sort--after their future descent into Baal worship and human sacrifice, nonetheless. Of course, you'll also have to cut out the historical records of Kings and Chronicles to be able to do that trick as well. Basically, as long as the only Bible you use is from Genesis through, say, Joshua, with certain pre-selected portions of Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Isaiah, you should be fine. That way you'll be able to invent a conjectured history of Israel that hasn't even happened yet from your own imagination and sense of personal hypothesized parallel-universe creativity in fairyland somewhere.

Biblewriter · Apr 11, 2013

1disciple said:
It's simple, really. The prophecies concerning the ingathering of the people of Israel have already been long fulfilled. I'm asking for scriptures that prove some future re-gathering 2,000 years after Christ. If you can find some, I'd be interested to read them.

I gave them to you in the other thread, but you chose to not bother to read them. Ezekiel 36 says that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" will again inhabit the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys of "the land of Israel. There is absolutely no way to even pretend that absolutely all of "the house of Israel" has ever returned to the land.

saiah 66 says this will happen after, not before the Lord has "come with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." Again there is no way to even pretend that the Lord has "come with fire, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire."

1disciple · Apr 11, 2013

@Biblewriter

Refer to post #86 in this thread for more information.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7736629-9/#post62823809

Bible2 · Apr 11, 2013

1disciple said in post 73:

The Kingdom of God is here now in the Spirit and in heavenly places.

That is right. Presently the kingdom of God is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Rom. 14:17, Lk. 17:21), and it is in heaven (2 Tim. 4:18, Heb. 12:22-24). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Mt. 6:10). It will be physically (Lk. 22:30, Mt. 19:28) on the earth (Rev. 5:10), first during the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11, Zech 14:3-21) & then on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (Jn. 1:49, 12:13-15, 19:19, Lk. 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming he'll sit on the earthly throne of David (Lk. 1:32-33, Isa. 9:7) & restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Mt. 1:1, 21:15-16, Rom. 1:3), of the house of David (Lk. 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he'll restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isa. 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Sam. 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kin. 17:21a), & Jesus will fulfill the prophecy & prayer of 2 Sam. 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David, for they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zech. 12:10-14, 13:1,6, Rom. 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are no believers outside of the church (Eph. 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:3, Zech. 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, Zech. 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zech. 8:22, 14:9, Ps. 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isa. 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isa. 2:1-4, Zech. 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), for the church is Israel (Rom. 11:1,17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29, Rev. 21:9,12, 1 Pet. 2:9-10).

1disciple said in post 73:

The Kingdom of Christ is not of this world.

John 18:36 meant that Jesus' future, physical reign on the earth, with the physically resurrected church (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), won't be of this world in the sense it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (2 Cor. 10:3-4, Mt. 26:52, 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning from heaven to establish it (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium & subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15), a new earth will be created & God's kingdom will continue on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

1disciple said in post 73:

They're still waiting for a physical Temple to be rebuilt in earthly Jerusalem!

Based on the scriptures. For Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24. This third temple will coexist with the church like the second temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The third temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build it, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the second coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the third temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a fourth temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) as the second temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

*******

1disciple said in post 75:

Christ raised all things to spiritual planes. There is no work left to do on the physical planes of this world.

That sounds too much like Gnosticism. Believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in physical flesh (2 Jn. 1:7) & that believers won't forever be in physical flesh. The Bible shows that Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his fully-human flesh & bones body (Lk. 24:39, Heb. 2:17). That's why his tomb is empty (Mt. 28:6) & why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Jn. 20:25-29). Lk. 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven, for he will remain our fully-human mediator/high priest forever (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like we're in human flesh (Heb. 2:17). And when he returns he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his body (Zech. 13:6, 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, & that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (Jn. 1:1,14, Rom. 1:3, Lk. 24:39) & remains wholly without sin (Heb. 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Gen. 1:31). Adam & Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Gen. 2:17). So Adam & Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection or changing of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, Philip. 3:21, Lk. 24:39, Rom. 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, very good, immortal flesh condition of Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, & only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good, for this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator YHWH God as some sort of evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, whom Gnosticism says by some accident fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe & became trapped in fleshly bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Rev. 13:6, Dan. 11:36). But Genesis shows our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Gen. 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh & spirit (1 Thes. 5:23, Lk. 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts & float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh & spirit like man (Jn. 1:1,14) & that God would ultimately come down out of heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Rev. 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam & Eve (Gen. 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Rev. 2:7, 22:2,14), just as Adam & Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Gen. 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam & Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Rev. 2:7), just as Adam & Eve & their descendants might have done had not Adam & Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

Bible2 · Apr 11, 2013

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post 74:

I still think there is a kingdom of some sort on the earth, after the return of Christ.

That is right. Jesus will reign on the earth during the kingdom's millennial aspect, for its thousand years will begin after his second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign on the earth during the thousand years, so will the resurrected church, for the resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the thousand years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church over the nations can refer to the thousand years. There is absolutely no reason to exclude the thousand years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there is absolutely no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post 74:

I still think there is a kingdom of some sort on the earth, after the return of Christ.

Regarding "after the return of Christ", that is right. There are at least seven different reasons for reading the kingdom's millennial aspect in Revelation 20:4-6 as occurring after Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7-21:

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First, it would be in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the thousand years in Revelation 20:4-6 is the same as in Revelation 20:1-3, when Satan will be literally bound with a chain and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit for a thousand years, whereas currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the thousand years cannot have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' second coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet and all the unsaved armies of the world at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' second coming.

Fourth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his second coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Fifth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be spiritually resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (that is, all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church is resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but not until sometime after the thousand years.

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their foreheads or hands. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection cannot have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' second coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post 74:

it makes more sense to think of the 1000 years as symbolic, with satan released from the abyss a few hundred years ago.

Regarding "it makes more sense to think of the 1000 years as symbolic", why? For in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (for example, Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11).

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post 74:

it makes more sense to think of the 1000 years as symbolic, with satan released from the abyss a few hundred years ago. as that abyss thing is probably some sort of metaphor.

Regarding "that abyss thing is probably some sort of metaphor", why? Why cannot the abyss, or the bottomless pit, in Revelation 20:1-3 be literal? For in Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath, H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit that is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9,10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy, H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post 74:

I've been thinking that eternity 'starts' after the return of Christ, and the earth is displaced/transformed.

By "transformed", do you mean into the new earth? That is, do you believe that the new earth will be created immediately at the return of Christ? If so, do you base this on 2 Peter 3:10?

If so, regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). But the day of the Lord will not immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface, for the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his second coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the thousand years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat at least seven more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b) before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' second coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord, for it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a thousand-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

1disciple · Apr 11, 2013

@Bible2

Refer to post #86 in this thread for more information.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7736629-9/#post62823809

P.S. Anyone who has to (literally) reference 217 Bible verses in the course of 3 posts in an attempt to demonstrate a future ethnic Jewish restoration is desperately grasping for any apparent straws. You hop around more than a flea on a hound dog. Why don't you just go ahead and write 'the whole Bible'. It would make it so much easier for you. I could also reference 217 Bible verses and make it apply to anything I wanted to apply it to as well if I were so inclined. The number of Bible verses one quotes doesn't make the argument any stronger. Satan can be a Bible thumper too. The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate clearly that each one of those 217 Bible verses you just referenced can and does only occurre sometime in or after 2013. Unless you can do that methodically, clearly and Biblically, you don't have a leg to stand on.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Apr 11, 2013

1disciple said:
Are you suggesting that in the future, modern Israel (that cannot even trace its own tribal lineage and has absolutely no possibility of ever being able to restore any legitimate Levitic priesthood) will begin to corporately worship Baal, turn the Temple of Jerusalem (that doesn't exist) into an Asherah shrine, be taken into captivity by the Assyrians and Babylonians and then be restored 70 years later according to prophecy? In the future? Are you serious? Why then did Daniel the prophet conclude that the 70 year captivity prophesied by Jeremiah the prophet was coming to an end in 537 B.C.? Not only are these things not future, they were fulfilled more than 2,500 years ago.

from the north, I was thinking of this..

Behold, I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the farthest parts of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, the pregnant woman and she who is in labour, together; a great company, they shall return here.

Babylon isn't north of Israel, it's east. So is Assyria. The farthest parts of the earth isn't Babylon. The Jews already have new priesthood prepared, they trace their ancestry back, but I'm no expert.

Gog/magog might never happen, but if it does it'll be Turkey allied to Iran, if they don't nuke Iran. I think Gog/magog might be symbolic of the enemies of Israel, perhaps, although that's doubtful.

1disciple · Apr 11, 2013

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
from the north, I was thinking of this..

Behold, I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the farthest parts of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, the pregnant woman and she who is in labour, together; a great company, they shall return here.

Babylon isn't north of Israel, it's east. So is Assyria. The farthest parts of the earth isn't Babylon. The Jews already have new priesthood prepared, they trace their ancestry back, but I'm no expert.

Gog/magog might never happen, but if it does it'll be Turkey allied to Iran, if they don't nuke Iran. I think Gog/magog might be symbolic of the enemies of Israel, perhaps, although that's doubtful.

No, Assyria is in fact north of Israel. Remember that Ezekiel is in the north (near Chebar/Kebar as this very moment of receiving this vision. Assyria extended all the way to the Caucuses gates above Iraq and Turkey.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Apr 11, 2013

1disciple said:
No, Assyria is in fact north of Israel. Remember that Ezekiel is in the north (near Chebar/Kebar as this very moment of receiving this vision. Assyria extended all the way to the Caucuses gates above Iraq and Turkey.

yep, Assyria is north of Sumer, but the Jeremiah prophesy says 'back to here'.. I know Jeremiah was exiled as well, but it wouldn't make much sense if the Israelites were drawn back to Babylon.
(i'm a bit rusty, but I think Jeremiah was exiled at a similar time as Ezekiel).

ebedmelech · Apr 11, 2013

The present state of Israel has nothing to do with prophecy in the NT...period!

The apostles put that forth before Jesus ascended in Acts 1:6:
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying,Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?

Jesus gave a direct answer to the question in Acts 1:7, 8:
7 He said to them, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.

Now...Jesus told them start the church in Jerusalem, then into Judea and Samaria...and then to the ends of the earth.

Jesus is reshaping their focus, which is no longer Israel...but the world.

There will be no restoration of "Israel the nation" itself...it's not going to happen!!!

The restoration of Israel was from the exile. The were restored to the land, the temple was rebuilt, and Jesus came. Israel rejected their Messiah and Jesus pronounced their house (temple), desolate.

There will be a time when Jesus focuses the gospel on the Jews, and "graft" them back in as His people into the church in which Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ.

Then the ultimate restoration of ALL THINGS will come when God makes ALL THINGS NEW.

The land of Israel itself...means nothing...except Jesus will return to the Mt of Olives...that's about it.

1disciple · Apr 11, 2013

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
yep, Assyria is north of Sumer, but the Jeremiah prophesy says 'back to here'.. I know Jeremiah was exiled as well, but it wouldn't make much sense if the Israelites were drawn back to Babylon.
(i'm a bit rusty, but I think Jeremiah was exiled at a similar time as Ezekiel).

Well, Jeremiah was actually a pre-captivity prophet for most of the 50 years he preached. True he was imprisoned by the king of Judea, but Jeremiah was a southern tribes prophet. Ezekiel was a northern tribes prophet. Ezekiel was taken up to the far north by the River Chebar in the first wave. Ezekiel was already in captivity by the Chebar river with the other northern captives long before Jerusalem was taken by Nebuchadnezzar. Jeremiah stayed in Jerusalem till the very end of the seige. I mean the first of Ezekiel's prophecies by the Kebar River can be dated accurately to 595 B.C. a full ten years before the siege and sacking of Jerusalem in 586-85. From all we know, Jeremiah was never taken into captivity. He sat on the hills outside of Jerusalem and wrote the Tears of Jeremiah concerning Jerusalem. This is the book commonly known at the Lamentations of Jeremiah the Prophet. All we know for certain is that he hid the Tabernacle and the lost Ark in some secret place. Where they are and what happened to Jeremiah? Only God knows.

Bible2 · Apr 12, 2013

1disciple said in post 91:

I could also reference 217 Bible verses and make it apply to anything I wanted to apply it to as well if I were so inclined.

Actually, you couldn't. For while anyone can reference verses, they cannot make those verses apply to anything they want. For if they say something that contradicts what the verses themselves say, or what the Bible says when it is taken as a whole, then what they are saying is mistaken.

1disciple said in post 91:

The number of Bible verses one quotes doesn't make the argument any stronger.

It does when what those verses say supports the argument.

1disciple said in post 91:

Satan can be a Bible thumper too.

How has what has been presented been shown to be Satanic?

1disciple said in post 91:

The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate clearly that each one of those 217 Bible verses you just referenced can and does only occurre sometime in or after 2013.

When was it said that every referenced verse can apply only to our future?

Also, can you give an example of a referenced verse which you feel was referenced as applying only to the future, when you feel it already applies?

Similarly, can you give an example of a referenced verse which you feel was referenced as applying to the future, when you feel it cannot possibly apply to the future?

Bible2 · Apr 12, 2013

ebedmelech said in post 95:

The present state of Israel has nothing to do with prophecy in the NT...period!

It could, for the reasons given in post 7.

ebedmelech said in post 95:

There will be no restoration of "Israel the nation" itself...it's not going to happen!

It already happened, in 1948. And Jesus will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel at his return, for the reasons given in post 89.

Biblewriter · Apr 12, 2013

1disciple said:
But Ezekiel is a prophet during the very captivity concerning which he is prophecying. God speaks of the captivity already being a reality and the restoration from that captivity being the next prophetic event. This was fulfilled with the edict of Cyrus in 536 B.C. Jeremiah is referring to the same restoration which would pave the way for the coming of Christ in the 1st century A.D. There is nothing here about northern lands. Are you confusing this with the prophecy of Gog and the Land of Magog that was prophesied to swoop down on Israel from the north?

Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. -- Ezekiel 36:17-19

Are you suggesting that in the future, modern Israel (that cannot even trace its own tribal lineage and has absolutely no possibility of ever being able to restore any legitimate Levitic priesthood) will begin to corporately worship Baal, turn the Temple of Jerusalem (that doesn't exist) into an Asherah shrine, be taken into captivity by the Assyrians and Babylonians and then be restored 70 years later according to prophecy? In the future? Are you serious? Why then did Daniel the prophet conclude that the 70 year captivity prophesied by Jeremiah the prophet was coming to an end in 537 B.C.? Not only are these things not future, they were fulfilled more than 2,500 years ago.

To say that these things are yet in the future is to completely write off the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther and Daniel. If you throw those books out of the Bible and completely ignore all historical records from King Zedekiah onwards (including the entirety of the New Testament), you might just be able to warp Ezekiel and Jeremiah enough to conjecture a future restoration of ethnic Jews of some sort--after their future descent into Baal worship and human sacrifice, nonetheless. Of course, you'll also have to cut out the historical records of Kings and Chronicles to be able to do that trick as well. Basically, as long as the only Bible you use is from Genesis through, say, Joshua, with certain pre-selected portions of Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Isaiah, you should be fine. That way you'll be able to invent a conjectured history of Israel that hasn't even happened yet from your own imagination and sense of personal hypothesized parallel-universe creativity in fairyland somewhere.

This is a complete wresting of what the prophets say.

The future portions of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel say absolutely nothing about Baal worship, nor about Idol worship of any kind. But some of them do speak of false worship of a man.

interpreter · Apr 12, 2013

Bible2 said:
That is right. Jesus will reign on the earth during the kingdom's millennial aspect, for its thousand years will begin after his second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign on the earth during the thousand years, so will the resurrected church, for the resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the thousand years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church over the nations can refer to the thousand years. There is absolutely no reason to exclude the thousand years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there is absolutely no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

Regarding "after the return of Christ", that is right. There are at least seven different reasons for reading the kingdom's millennial aspect in Revelation 20:4-6 as occurring after Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7-21:

-

First, it would be in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

-

Second, the thousand years in Revelation 20:4-6 is the same as in Revelation 20:1-3, when Satan will be literally bound with a chain and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit for a thousand years, whereas currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the thousand years cannot have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' second coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet and all the unsaved armies of the world at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' second coming.

Fourth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his second coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 cannot be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Fifth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be spiritually resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (that is, all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church is resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but not until sometime after the thousand years.

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their foreheads or hands. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection cannot have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' second coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

Regarding "it makes more sense to think of the 1000 years as symbolic", why? For in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (for example, Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11).

Regarding "that abyss thing is probably some sort of metaphor", why? Why cannot the abyss, or the bottomless pit, in Revelation 20:1-3 be literal? For in Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath, H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit that is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9,10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy, H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

By "transformed", do you mean into the new earth? That is, do you believe that the new earth will be created immediately at the return of Christ? If so, do you base this on 2 Peter 3:10?

If so, regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). But the day of the Lord will not immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface, for the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his second coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the thousand years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat at least seven more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b) before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' second coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord, for it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a thousand-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

In the Battle of Ar Mageddon, now unfolding, the Satanic beast of the Revelation will be so soundly defeated that it won't be heard from again for a thousand years. Then Jesus will rule the earth through 24 thrones which now exist.

The Present State of Israel - in prophecy

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