Is anyone in Heaven?

Setyoufree

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No, I'm not confused; Jesus promised the thief that he would be in paradise that very day . Here is the text:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So is Jesus a liar or were you confused, which is it?

That Jesus nor I are confused, but it is you....Clearly Jesus didn't go to heaven after the resurrection. I gave you that verse. And clearly the thieves didn't die Friday. It was later....

Perhaps a comma will help you understand the contradiction that you have invented?

Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 
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PreachingChristCrucified

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That Jesus nor I are confused, but it is you....Clearly Jesus didn't go to heaven after the resurrection. I gave you that verse. And clearly the thieves didn't die Friday. It was later....

Perhaps a common will help you understand the contradiction that you have invented?

Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

You must be reading a different bible version than me.

Because in my translation Jesus promises the thief he will be in paradise that very day.
 
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Setyoufree

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Because in my translation Jesus promises the thief he will be in paradise that very day.

If you misplace the comma, yes you could arrive at that, but then you have the timeline contradiction to deal with. Again, Jesus didn't go to heaven that Friday. I gave you that verse. And the two criminals, neither of them died Friday. I gave you those verses also. So if you insist on ignoring clear evidence, what else can I do? It is your decision to ignore the facts.
 
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PreachingChristCrucified

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If you misplace the comma, yes you could arrive at that, but then you have the timeline contradiction to deal with. Again, Jesus didn't go to heaven that Friday. I gave you that verse. And the two criminals, neither of them died Friday. I gave you those verses also. So if you insist on ignoring clear evidence, what else can I do? It is your decision to ignore the facts.

I suggest you read some commentaries because your version of the events is incorrect.
 
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Setyoufree

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I suggest you read some commentaries because your version of the events is incorrect.

Commentaries are men made....If I make those who write commentaries the final word then those men become my pope.....I must think for myself....I must be true to conscience.
 
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Setyoufree

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I suggest you read some commentaries because your version of the events is incorrect.

What part of the thief was good that it didn't die? You see if something lives on in me after I die then that something is good...it is holy, but the Apostle Paul says, "I know in me, that is in my flesh (my humanity) dwells nothing good."

In fact Paul also said, "There is none righteous, no, not even one." And Jesus said, "There's only One good - that is, God."

So again, what escapes the death sentence that came upon all men when Adam fell?
 
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Setyoufree

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Setyoufree

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1 Cor 15:50 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then (not before) will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory."

At the resurrection is when you gain immortality, not before! Why? You and I belong to a condemned race. Hence "in Adam all die". That's the first death! From that Christ didn't come to save us. He came to save us from the curse of the law death where God abandons persistent unbelievers to the eternal grave. That's the 2nd death.

Here's our first death:

Rom 5:12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses....

From Adam to Moses folks were dying! Why? Not because the law condemned these folks, but because they stood condemned in Adam. You can only be condemned by the law if you know you are a sinner. So we all die our first death because of our relationship to Adam.

If something in you doesn't die then it is pure & holy like Adam before the fall. That means something in your humanity is good & holy, but Paul plainly tells believers that nothing in us is good...we are rotten and need Christ's righteousness.
 
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PreachingChristCrucified

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Commentaries are men made....If I make those who write commentaries the final word then those men become my pope.....I must think for myself....I must be true to conscience.

Maybe you're just afraid that you'll actually be convinced of sane doctrine.
 
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Elder 111

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No, the elect are in heaven. That is where they are gathered from when Christ returns.

Soul sleep is neither biblical nor what the Jews traditionally believed in.
Where is the bible texts?
 
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Elder 111

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Jesus said that those who believe in him will never taste of death.

When our body dies our spirit goes to be with him until the last day when it is reunited with a glorified body.
That don't make sense because using the same belief the wicked don't die either. They are alive in hell at death.
The soul that sinneth it shall surely die. What about that? Haven't the saints sin?
 
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Erose

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If you misplace the comma, yes you could arrive at that, but then you have the timeline contradiction to deal with. Again, Jesus didn't go to heaven that Friday. I gave you that verse. And the two criminals, neither of them died Friday. I gave you those verses also. So if you insist on ignoring clear evidence, what else can I do? It is your decision to ignore the facts.

You do realize that Jesus is God right. As God the Son He never truly left heaven.
 
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Erose

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That don't make sense because using the same belief the wicked don't die either. They are alive in hell at death.
The soul that sinneth it shall surely die. What about that? Haven't the saints sin?

Is not going to hell the true death?
 
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Jig

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Commentaries are men made....If I make those who write commentaries the final word then those men become my pope.....I must think for myself....I must be true to conscience.

Yeah! Why would we ever want to look at what other godly men who came before us had to say! Especially when most devoted their lives to prayer and honest scholarship! We don't need no stinking Greek expert to tell us what the original Greek meant! Most Christians today know enough Greek to get by on their own!
 
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nestoj

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So, if Jesus never really left heaven, who descended to save us?

Erose is right. God, one in nature, in person of Father is in heaven, outside of time. God, one in nature, in person of Son enters history (time and world) in order to save us. "Today, you will be with me in heaven" is, from the perspective that One God manifests in three persons, essentialy true and logical. Christ could have said it any time during his mission on Earth and it would still be true.
 
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Lion King

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So Jesus was wrong when He said "today" you will be with me in paradise?

Most translations are improperly punctuated to make it appear that Jesus would be in Paradise that day. A comma placed before the word "today" is incorrect. The comma should follow it: "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise." The original texts did not contain punctuation marks. They were only added centuries later by the translators. The Luke passage does in no way state that Jesus Christ (or the thief) would be in the paradise of the LORD, that very same day. The LORD simply gave the thief, assurance that He would be indeed in paradise WHEN the Kingdom of God comes.

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Revelation 21:2-4

Even those in the LORD's presence still await for the day the LORD will fulfil the Scriptures, they too wait with us for the day when we will all be clothed with our heavenly bodies. The thief together with Abraham and all the saints are still dead/asleep/resting in Jesus Christ, and patiently await (together with all of us) for the day the LORD returns to take them to the Paradise of God.

There's no indication that it was a parable, so I accept it as truth. And yes, the wicked are in Sheol right now.

1. Who was the story of the rich man and Lazarus being addressed to?

2. Are the wicked BURNING in the fires of Sheol as the story of the rich man and Lazarus states?

Re the Transfiguration:

According to Strong's the Greek word used for "vision", horama, means "something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision." Nothing about the sight not being real.

horama: that which is seen
Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: horama
Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-ah)
Short Definition: a spectacle, vision
Definition: a spectacle, vision, that which is seen.


That same Greek word "horama" (vision) was also used for both Ananias and Paul's visions in Acts 9:10-12.

In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered.

11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.” Acts 9:10-12


Do you believe those visons (horama) witnessed by Paul and Ananias were literal?

No, not *everything* in Revelation is to be taken literally, but there's no indication that the souls under the altar is symbolic.

Is there any evidence that passage in Rev is meant to be taken literal?

Where does it say that "no one can live in heaven without a celestial body"? And what parts of Scripture would have to be ignored if there are folks in heaven at the moment?

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Corinthians 15:44-49


Those who are living in heaven are like Christ, meaning they have heavenly bodies as Christ. Is Abraham, David, Moses etc like Christ? Have they been given glorified bodies by God like Christ's?

Ain't that the purpose of the resurrection of the dead? So that we could be like Christ and finally be able to reside with God in heavenly Jerusalem (Rev 21:1-5)?
 
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Lion King

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Erose is right. God, one in nature, in person of Father is in heaven, outside of time. God, one in nature, in person of Son enters history (time and world) in order to save us. "Today, you will be with me in heaven" is, from the perspective that One God manifests in three persons, essentialy true and logical. Christ could have said it any time during his mission on Earth and it would still be true.

I understand that. However, the Spirit of Christ (The Holy-Spirit) did not go to paradise when He died, but descended to the spirits in prison. Paradise is in heaven and we know from the Scriptures that Jesus never went to heaven between His death and resurrection:

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17
 
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Jpark

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Those who are living in heaven are like Christ, meaning they have heavenly bodies as Christ. Is Abraham, David, Moses etc like Christ? Have they been given glorified bodies by God like Christ's?
Luke 20:37 And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.”

In the former verse, he reinforces the Pharisee view.

In the latter verse, he clarifies that it is not limited to the future (resurrection). Even in death, they are still awake.
 
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