Doctrines of Jesus or [RC] 'Mary', one or the other, but not both, take your pick...

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III Angeli Nuntius

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[4] According to the various man-made traditions and creeds of Roman Catholicism and others, Christ Jesus did not go to “Paradise” that day either, but rather they say that he [Christ, in a Platonic Dualism] “descended into hell” [which is completely unscriptural, but that is for another time and topic] and it was not until the “third day” that he arose, and finally “ascended” into heaven. This creates a serious theological conundrum and contradiction for any which believe this, if they also think that Luke 23:43 says Christ Jesus entered “Paradise” that same day he died. Others attempt to redefine “Paradise” into a type of 'limbo', but even in this, it still contradicts.

We may see this from several Roman Catholic sources, such as Thomas Aquinas “Summa Theologica”, Third Part, Question 52; Article 4, Reply To Objection 1 [and throughout, having both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur] “Reply to Objection 1. When Christ descended into hell He delivered the saints who were there, not by leading them out at once from the confines of hell, but by enlightening them with the light of glory in hell itself. Nevertheless it was fitting that His soul should abide in hell as long as His body remained in the tomb - SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Christ's descent into hell (Tertia Pars, Q. 52)

or we may see it from the “Creed of Aquiliea” “Descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis (He descended to hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead); Ascendit in cœlos; sedet ad dexteram Patris; (He ascended to the heavens; he sits at the right hand of the Father)”- CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on the Apostles' Creed (Rufinus)

or considering the “Apostles Creed”, it clearly states that Jesus was not “caught up to Heaven” until after the “third day”; “T” Apostles Creed “...(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; (6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed

or considering the “Nicene Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus that he, “...suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nicene Creed

or considering the “Athanasian Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus, “...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Athanasian Creed


[5] “Paradise” is actually the “Garden of God” in “the city” “of God”, wherein is “the Throne of God” in the “third Heaven”, where God the Father rules, from where Jesus came from and from which Lucifer was cast out of, by scripture:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:32

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ; such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ; 2 Corinthians 12:3

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:2

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13

13en th trufh tou paradeisou tou qeou egenhqhs pan liqon crhston endedesai sardion kai topazion kai smaragdon kai anqraka kai sapfeiron kai iaspin kai argurion kai crusion kai ligurion kai acathn kai amequston kai crusoliqon kai bhrullion kai onucion kai crusiou eneplhsas tous qhsaurous sou kai tas apoqhkas sou en soi af¢ hs hmeras ektisqhs su Ezekiel 28:13 LXX

Jesus did not enter into “Paradise” until after He was resurrected and arose from death “the third day” according to the scriptures, this being His first ascension back into Heaven, the other at the Mount of Olives [Acts 1:9; Revelation 12:5], after 40 days [Acts 1:3], 10 days before Pentecost, the 50th Day [Leviticus 23:16] in exact fulfillment of the Biblical Types and Prophecy given in the OT [unto Moses and Aaron]. Let us see this.


[6] Jesus was dead and in the Tomb, resting in the sleep of death upon the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, for even in death He is perfect, for he not going anywhere, as it is written, “...he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.” [Job 21:32], until after His resurrection, for He must of necessity fulfill the scriptures:

Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:6

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8
 
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III Angeli Nuntius

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[7] Christ Jesus did not lead “captivity captive”[the “firstfruits” 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, the “wavesheaf” Leviticus 23:10-12; see Matthew 27:52-53] until His own Resurrection, “the third day” [Luke 24:21], “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” Ephesians 4:8

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of Jesus from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of God” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].


For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Notice, not individually as any die, but all “together” being alive and others with them made alive in a resurrection [Biblical exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, special group of “saints” around Jerusalem at Jesus own resurrection, each playing a specific part in typology, there are no other Biblical exceptions].

The same word can be viewed in many other passages: [Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:
“to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

“to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

“to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

“to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

“to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

“make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

“come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

“to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].


[8] Jesus is specific about how anyone which dies, is to enter into Heaven, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.” [John 14:3], and that word “come” is the Greek “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι”. Death is an enemy, not a friend [1 Corinthians 15:26], for it has a sting, which will one day be no more, and it was not until after the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, that He “...hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” [2 Timothy 1:10].
 
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III Angeli Nuntius

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Original Post on this Subject - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-48/#post62721039

Answer to "
The Spirit of Jairus’ daughter was not sleeping (Luke 8:51-54)"
- [1] [Texts] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62731407
- [2] [Consideration] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62731415

Answer to "
Samuel the Prophet wasn’t sleeping (1 Sam. 28:7-19)"
- [1] [Texts] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749019
- [2A] [Context] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749040
- [2B] [Context] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749045
- [2C] [Context] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749051
- [3A] [Consideration] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749067
- [3B] [Consideration] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-50/#post62749072

Answer to "The thief on the cross didn’t sleep (Luke 23:43)"
- [1] [Texts] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-50/#post62759843
- [2A] [Consideration] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-50/#post62759860
- [2B] [Consideration] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-51/#post62759869
- [2C] [Consideration] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-51/#post62759877

For the next text I choose - Moses and Elijah weren’t sleeping (Matt. 17:1-4)

No immediate time limit on this one, but when it is posted it is posted, and so, take some time to read, pray, and consider this, that all may know that what is soon about to be given is the Truth. This, 'objection' to God's own words, shall be answered in full then and be put to rest.

God's words will be vindicated, and the words of the serpent will be put to open and naked shame.
 
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BlackSepulcher

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Doctrines of Jesus or [RC] 'Mary', one or the other, but not both, take your pick...
funny_animal.gif
 
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revrobor

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the word became flesh... makes Jesus God. Mary gave birth to Jesus, carried him in her womb, that makes her the mother of Jesus, the mother of the word, the mother of God.

I'd appreciate replies short and simple, not pages of information that would take all day to read through. Let's keep it real, speak with your own words, maybe we can get someplace.

God the Father created Mary so she cannot be the mother of the One who created her. Jesus was the embodiment of God in the flesh (God is a spirit) a member of the Trinity - all God. There is absolutely no Scripture authorizing the worship of Mary. To do so is idolatry.
 
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BlackSepulcher

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God the Father created Mary so she cannot be the mother of the One who created her. Jesus was the embodiment of God in the flesh (God is a spirit) a member of the Trinity - all God. There is absolutely no Scripture authorizing the worship of Mary. To do so is idolatry.

We don't worship Mary.
 
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MoreCoffee

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So, if I say, "Pray for me, BlackSepulcher" I am worshipping BlackSepulcher?

You do realise, I hope, how absurd it is to claim that asking somebody to pray for you is worshipping them.
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.
 
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BlackSepulcher

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Protestants have no conception of what praying to saints or the veneration of Mary is about. Beatific Vision, Assumption, and such- these things are alien to them.

But instead of actually learning what it all is, they just blindly thump the Bible. They treat it almost as if it is a personified object. I think there should be a re-observation of who is closer to idolatry.

The most frustrating thing about that is that the Bible wasn't even required. Christians simply figured they ought to have a canon of Scripture the same as other religions, and Protestants act like it descended from the sky. In truth, the only thing that was ever needed in the first place was the succession of Peter and the guiding Spirit.
 
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revrobor

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So, if I say, "Pray for me, BlackSepulcher" I am worshipping BlackSepulcher?

You do realise, I hope, how absurd it is to claim that asking somebody to pray for you is worshipping them.
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.

You do realize, I hope, how absurd it is to ask someone who is dead and can't hear you to pray for you?
 
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Erose

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God the Father created Mary so she cannot be the mother of the One who created her. Jesus was the embodiment of God in the flesh (God is a spirit) a member of the Trinity - all God. There is absolutely no Scripture authorizing the worship of Mary. To do so is idolatry.

So you are saying that Jesus is not God?
 
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Stryder06

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It's funny how Protestants pretty much presume that the Church was just like
"let's venerate Mary because.. why not?"

Why is that funny? How often did Israel fall into apostasy and idol worship just for the sake of it?

That would be that whole wolves in sheeps clothing thing.
 
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revrobor

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It's funny how Protestants pretty much presume that the Church was just like
"let's venerate Mary because.. why not?"

I have as much respect for Mary as any Roman Catholic. She must have been a wonderful person for God to use her as He did. But I also know I can't pray to or speak to her because she is dead.
 
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Stryder06

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So, if I say, "Pray for me, BlackSepulcher" I am worshipping BlackSepulcher?

You do realise, I hope, how absurd it is to claim that asking somebody to pray for you is worshipping them.
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.

The idea of asking someone to pray for you isn't the problem. It's the idea that you think you can speak with the dead. That's the problem. Second, it's the manner in which you talk to them.
 
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BlackSepulcher

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I have as much respect for Mary as any Roman Catholic. She must have been a wonderful person for God to use her as He did. But I also know I can't pray to or speak to her because she is dead.

Is that what you believe happens after death- you stay dead? Gee, so much for that reward Jesus and the apostles went on about through the entire NT.
 
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Stryder06

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Protestants have no conception of what praying to saints or the veneration of Mary is about. Beatific Vision, Assumption, and such- these things are alien to them.

But instead of actually learning what it all is, they just blindly thump the Bible. They treat it almost as if it is a personified object. I think there should be a re-observation of who is closer to idolatry.

The bible isn't being blindly thumped. It's being searched to see if these "Christian" practices are actually that. But I totally agree with you. There should be a reobservation of who is closer to idolatry.

The most frustrating thing about that is that the Bible wasn't even required. Christians simply figured they ought to have a canon of Scripture the same as other religions, and Protestants act like it descended from the sky. In truth, the only thing that was ever needed in the first place was the succession of Peter and the guiding Spirit.

If the succession of Peter and the guiding of the Spirit were the only things needed, then God wouldn't have inspired the prophets and patriarchs of times past to write. I think Catholics forget that there was scripture before the "church" was established. The writings of the apostles were simply added to it.
 
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BlackSepulcher

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The bible isn't being blindly thumped. It's being searched to see if these "Christian" practices are actually that. But I totally agree with you. There should be a reobservation of who is closer to idolatry.

The Bible is not the only source of information. This is common sense, not a reproach to the Bible. It's too bad modern Protestants do not get that. Do you think Luther and Calvin made their doctrines through the Bible alone? The Spirit descending from the Son as well as the Father cannot be found in Scripture, but that is a centrifugal belief Protestants rely on that only the Church otherwise believes. And instituted, for that matter.

When it comes down to it, Protestants choose what works for them, and deny the rest through errant means of proof texting and legal fictions. That is exactly why there so many different kinds of you.
 
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