Doctrines of Jesus or [RC] 'Mary', one or the other, but not both, take your pick...

Stryder06 said:

I thought I explained that already. The language used to describe that situation is very figurative. You can't assume that because some Jews may have believed in an afterlife, that all Jews did. Nor can you assume that because the scripture doesn't record a correction, that one never was given.

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Yes, all the parables are in a sense "figurative".

It is true also that if you plant seed in good soil, you will have a healthier plant tan if you plant the seed in rocky or shallow or weedy soil.

The Sadducces perhaps, but the understanding of the afterlife involving the Bosom of Abraham (the destination of the righteous departed in Sheol/Hades) was then currently believed.

If indeed this understanding (Bosom of Abraham vs. a place of pain as the abode of the souls of the departed) was wrong, it is a spiritual distortion or even falsehood.

Again, if it was wrong (which would = spiritually dangerous) why would Christ even use it as an illustration ?

Why would He who called Himself "the Way, the Truth" support the wrong way and a spiritual lie to make a point ? (Certainly, in figurative usage, there is more than one way to make a point -- otherwise there would be only one poem for every concept.)

As I stated earlier, a parable is used to help teach a lesson. How it's structured is not what matters, but what it teaches.

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It is important if it contained a lie, especially a spiritual lie.

Thekla said:

Yes, all the parables are in a sense "figurative".

It is true also that if you plant seed in good soil, you will have a healthier plant tan if you plant the seed in rocky or shallow or weedy soil.

The Sadducces perhaps, but the understanding of the afterlife involving the Bosom of Abraham (the destination of the righteous departed in Sheol/Hades) was then currently believed.

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Looking at the story, Lazarus didn't go to a place, but to a person. That's one reason why we can know this is a parable, and not a literal truth based on a common belief among the people.

If indeed this understanding (Bosom of Abraham vs. a place of pain as the abode of the souls of the departed) was wrong, it is a spiritual distortion or even falsehood.

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For one, Christ spoke about the man literally going to Abraham. For this reason I know it's not the same as "the bosom of Abraham" theory.

Again, if it was wrong (which would = spiritually dangerous) why would Christ even use it as an illustration ?

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Using what people know, even when it's wrong, can make it easier to teach them truth. It opens the door for correction.

Why would He who called Himself "the Way, the Truth" support the wrong way and a spiritual lie to make a point ? (Certainly, in figurative usage, there is more than one way to make a point -- otherwise there would be only one poem for every concept.)

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He is the Way, the Truth, and the life. Christ wasn't lying when he told that story because it wasn't a literal account. It was a parable. A make believe story, used to teach a very real truth. It's more like an "even if this were possible..." type of message.

It is important if it contained a lie, especially a spiritual lie.

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Again, Christ was working with what the people would be familiar with. If, as you said, this was a teaching common among the people, Christ was simply taking what they new, and making using it to teach them what they needed to know.

Original Post on this Subject - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-48/#post62721039

III Angeli Nuntius said:

The first Text I choose [since none have chosen, and would not enter into study with me] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-48/#post62721039 :

The Spirit of Jairus’ daughter was not sleeping (Luke 8:51-54)

All have one day to read, pray, and consider this, that all may know that what is soon about to be given is the Truth. This, 'objection' to God's own words, shall be answered in full then and be put to rest.

God's words will be vindicated, and the words of the serpent will be put to open and naked shame.

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Here are the texts and immediate local context of Luke 8:40-56; see also the same in Mark 5:22-43 & Matthew 9:18-26. Briefly mentioning the symbolism, a woman unable to cease from bleeding for 12 years [we have the people of God represented by the old woman, the number 12 is the number for leadership, these of the Patriarchs, and blood, being that which comes of the continual sacrifices for sin, and she could not be healed by any but God; then we come to the young little girl who is dead and twelve years old. Again we see the people of God, represented by the little girl, but she is dead and without life, and the only one that can bring life to her is God, and the number 12 is the number of leadership of the New Testament Apostles, and she is given Life by Christ Jesus. These two women represent God's church from the OT into the NT, but that is for another time, now we discuss the state of the little girl, which was “dead”, for some say she wasn't really dead, but merely sick, or in a coma, or floating around somewhere [not in heaven they say] as an ethereal bodyless incorporeal essence, but having consciousness. These two events are very real, but with a much greater significance than most realize, but that is for another time perhaps]:

LUKE's Account:

And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people [gladly] received him: for they were all waiting for him. Luke 8:40

And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house: Luke 8:41

For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him. Luke 8:42

And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, Luke 8:43

Came behind [him], and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched. Luke 8:44

And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press [thee], and sayest thou, Who touched me? Luke 8:45

And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me. Luke 8:46

And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately. Luke 8:47

And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace. Luke 8:49

While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's [house], saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master. Luke 8:49

But when Jesus heard [it], he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole. Luke 8:50

And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. Luke 8:51

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. Luke 8:52

And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. Luke 8:53

And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. Luke 8:54

And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. Luke 8:55

And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done. Luke 8:56


MARK's Account:

And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet, Mark 5:22

And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: [I pray thee], come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live. Mark 5:23

And [Jesus] went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him. Mark 5:24

And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, Mark 5:25

And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, Mark 5:26

When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. Mark 5:27

For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. Mark 5:28

And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in [her] body that she was healed of that plague. Mark 5:29

And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? Mark 5:30

And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? Mark 5:31

And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. Mark 5:32

But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. Mark 5:33

And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague. Mark 5:34

While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's [house certain] which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? Mark 5:35

As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. Mark 5:36

And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. Mark 5:37

And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. Mark 5:38

And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. Mark 5:39

And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying. Mark 5:40

And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. Mark 5:41

And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was [of the age] of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment. Mark 5:42

And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat. Mark 5:43


MATTHEW's Account:

While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Matthew 9:18

And Jesus arose, and followed him, and [so did] his disciples. Matthew 9:19

And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind [him], and touched the hem of his garment: Matthew 9:20

For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. Matthew 9:21

But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. Matthew 9:22

And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise, Matthew 9:23

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. Matthew 9:24

But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. Matthew 9:25

And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land. Matthew 9:26

Let us therefore, now look at the texts themselves more closely and examin them exegetically, even line upon line, precept upon precept.

III Angeli Nuntius said:

Previously [Cited Texts]: http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62731407

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Let us see what we shall gain from these texts:

[1] We have in the texts, “And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house; And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: [I pray thee], come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.” [Luke 8:41-42], the evidence before us that the little girl was still yet alive and very ill, even “lieth at the point of death” [Mark 5:23] and “she lay a dying” [Luke 8:42] when her father “Jairus” [Luke 8:41; Mark 5:22], that “certain ruler” [Matthew 9:18], “of the synagogue” [Luke 8:41,49; Mark 5:22,35], came to Jesus for help in healing, so that He would come and “lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed” [Mark 5:23], so that her dying would not be unto “death”, but that she should yet “live” [Mark 5:23].

The words used for “point of death” [Mark 5:32] are “εσχατως εχει”; “escatwV ecei”, and means “death holding” [or “in the grips of death/dying”]

The word used for “dying” [Luke 8:42] is “απεθνησκεν”; “apeqnhsken”, and means “to die, in the midst of dying, to perish, dry up and wither away; eternal death”

The word used for “live” [Mark 5:23] is “ζησεται”; “zhsetai”, and it means “to live, breathe, be among the living [not lifeless, not dead], be alive, active”

These words, in an of themselves give the evidence as to what was happening with the little girl. She lay at home at the point of death, but of what illness or cause we are not told [except it be to the Glory of God], and her father, knowing Jesus could heal, ran to fetch him, that she might not die, but yet live. A person who is truly comatose is not dying unto death, but is generally not cognizant of the world around them. There would be no need to utilize the words “point of death”, “dying” or “live” if such were the case as some like to conjecture apart from and outside of the evidence of the text itself.

[2] We have in the texts, “when Jesus was returned, the people [gladly] received him: for they were all waiting for him” [Luke 8:40], for He had just come back from “the country of the Gadarenes” [Luke 8:26,37; Mark 5:1; also “the country of the Gergesenes” [Matthew 8:28] [sister cities], both of which were part of the 10 Cities, the “Decapolis” [Mark 5:20]]. Once back from there, having “came into his own city” [Matthew 9:1; “Capernaum” [Matthew 4:13, 8:5, 11:23; Mark 2:1; etc]] where He dwelt for a time, Jesus began further teaching and called “Matthew” to “follow” Him [Matthew 9:9]; and while He was yet in “the house” [Matthew 9:10; Mark 2:1, 9:33] where He then dwelt, suddenly came Jairus asking for healing for his dying [soon dead] daughter [Luke 8:41; Mark 5:22; Matthew 9:18 [Matthew relates the shortest version; the Greek actually reading, “αρτι ετελευτησεν”; “arti eteleuthsen”; [literally, “now at the end”] so the verb form is in the aorist active indicative third person singular, basically as “A.T. Robertson explains, the aorist "just treats the act as a single whole entirely irrespective of the parts or time involved" (Historical Research, 832)”], thus in dying, she died, and the dying is part of the events unto death. For example see John 2:20, wherein the temple was “built” in 46 years. Matthew is simply making a short version, and summing up the events, whereas Mark and Luke give further details between the time of her dying and actual death]. They all leave together, “And [Jesus] went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.” [Mark 5:24]; and “But as he went the people thronged him.” [Luke 8:42]; and “And Jesus arose, and followed him, and [so did] his disciples.” [Matthew 9:19]. We see as they went, that the Disciples said unto Jesus, “Master, the multitude throng thee and press [thee]” [Luke 8:45] and “all the people” [Luke 8:47], “in the press” [Mark 5:30], “his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee” [Mark 5:31], which slowed Jesus down in getting to Jairus house [though really it is perfect timing for the Glory of God to be revealed]. During this time of 'delay', the little girl in dying, finally dies. If she were not then dead, we would not have the next few texts which clearly say she was “dead”, even by a witness “from the ruler of the synagogue's [house]” [Luke 8:49].

[3] We have in the texts, “cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's [house], saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.” [Luke 8:49] and “Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further” [Mark 5:35], and in this we see that we have our first witness [in the mouth of two or three, a Biblical Principle; Deuteronomy 17:6, 19:15; Matthew 18:16; John 8:17; 2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19; Hebrews 10:28], and this witness declares the little girl to be “dead”. Not sick, not in a coma [appearance of living sleep], not ill, but “dead”. She is so much so “dead”, that this person claims no hope whatsoever, in saying, “trouble not the Master further”. She was without life, and therefore, in their thinking, nothing else could be done. They knew He could heal sickness [even as they all just recently saw of the woman of the bloody issue, who confessed to Him before them all of the miraculous healing; Luke 8:47; Mark 5:33], but death was something else, death was beyond any earthly physician [and even Luke, a physician knew it, for he would know such a difference between clinically comatose and deceased. Luke, “the beloved physician” [Colossians 4:14] adds nothing to the events nor adds to the words of the one from the house which reported that she was “dead”, for there is not a single “but” or intercalation [parenthetical commentary] from him]. Upon hearing this news, Jesus turns to Jairus who also heard saying, “Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.” [Luke 8:50]; “Be not afraid, only believe.” [Mark 5:36]. He says similar language to the Disciples, Mary and Martha in the case of Lazarus, which had been dead four days [John 11:15,26,40,42,45]. We come to a second witness, in them that were at Jairus' house, which all mourned greatly at her death, for we see that “all wept, and bewailed her” [Luke 8:52] and “seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.” [Mark 5:38]; “this ado, and weep” [Mark 5:39] and “saw the minstrels and the people making a noise” [Matthew 9:23]. They would not mourn so “greatly” for one still alive, nor have “minstrels” sounding the dirge of death, nor “the people” [literally 'crowd'] behaving so. The third witness, is the direct testimony of them that were present upon her death, that they seeing [Greek, ειδοτες] clearly, “knowing that she was dead” [Luke 8:53].

The word used for “dead” [Mark 5:35] is “απεθανεν”; “apeqanen”, and it means “to die, be dead, to perish; separated [in] death”.

The word used for “wept” [Luke 8:52; Mark 5:38,39] is “κλαιετε”; “klaiete”, and it means “to weep, mourn [for those which died], lament in pain or grief [at loss]”.

The word used for “bewailed” [Luke 8:52] is “εκοπτοντο”; “ekoptonto”, and it means “to lament, mourn, wail, beat/strike”.

The word used for “tumult” [Mark 5:38] is “θορυβον”; “qorubon ”, and it means “noise, tumult, uproar [as in persons wailing]”.

The word used for “wailed” [Mark 5:38] is “αλαλαζοντας”; “alalazontaV ”, and it means “to repeat frequently the cry "alala"; to wail, lament, cry alound, whether in joy or suffering/mourning, ring or clang loudly [as with cymbals]”.

The word used for “ado” [Mark 5:29] is “θορυβεισθε”; “qorubeisqe” and also “making a noise” [Matthew 9:23] is “θορυβουμενον”; “qoruboumenon”, and it means “make a noise, uproar, turbulent, disturb, thrown in confusion, wail tumultuously”.

[4] We have in the texts, “he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.” [Luke 8:52] and “he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.” [Mark 5:39] and “He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth.” [Matthew 9:24]. Some take these words of Jesus “plainly” when it is not said that He spoke “plainly” as unto the disciples about Lazarus [John 11:11-14], but here speaks before others in symbolic speech, as He did so [Psalms 78:2; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10]. Jesus speaks of the “sleepeth” of death [“sleep the [sleep of] death.” Psalms 13:3].

Is Jesus alone in this? No, for all of scripture speaks of death in this way:

So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. [1 Kings 2:10]

Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. [Acts 2:29]

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [Acts 2:34]

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. [2 Peter 3:4]

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: [Acts 13:36]

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. [1 Corinthians 15:6]

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [1 Thessalonians 4:13]

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. [Revelation 14:13]

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

"slept with his fathers" [1 Kings 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20]

Consider [and] hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the [sleep of] death; [Psalms 13:3]

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. [Psalms 115:17]

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. [Psalms 146:4]

He tells 'the crowd' around that she is “not dead”, for because He is the “resurrection and the life” [John 11:25] and so all “live unto Him” [Luke 20:38], for “Hell [the grave] [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.” [Job 26:6]. Those present, being carnal, not understanding such spiritual things [“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” [2 Corinthians 2:14]], then mocked Jesus, for equating “death” unto they which “sleepeth”; for “they laughed him to scorn” [Luke 8:53; Mark 5:40; Matthew 9:24]. As it was then, so it is today, for they mocked at Him [Jesus] which taught what scripture teaches and what Himself also taught, in that death is likened unto an unconscious sleep, a temporary state of non-existence [except as our full character is faithfully recorded in the book of Heaven, and known in the heart/mind of God]. We can know further that she was not actually 'asleep' in life [or in a comatose state], for the very words in the texts refute such an idea, as they say, “And her spirit came again” [Luke 8:55]. She had no breath in her, laying there, for she was dead.

The word used for “spirit” [Luke 8:55] is “πνευμα”; “pneuma ”, and it means “breath [of the nostrils, or of wind], air, vital principle animating anything, can also mean a mind/heart/essence of character of a living being [as of the Holy Spirit, or of angels - only living beings have such “spirit” [a character]. The dead have none."]. From this Greek word the English gets its word pneumatic, for pneumatic machines, or 'air-powered', or the word pneumonia, a disease affecting the lungs and/or breathing [of air]. We may see the example of this use when Jesus Himself died, giving up His last breath in dying [Matthew 27:50]. Those which are dead, do not “retain the spirit” [Ecclesiastes 8:8], for it is not theirs, but God's and returns unto Him [Ecclesiastes 12:7], for “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” [Psalms 146:4], and those which are dead, 'return unto dust' [Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 12:7' Psalms 104:29] [even Rome gets this part right, every Ash Wednesday, “Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return.” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Ash Wednesday] - ]CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ash Wednesday, from which they are come, until such time as their respective resurrection.

[5] We have in the texts, “And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.” [Luke 8:56] and “And they were astonished with a great astonishment.” [Mark 5:42] and “And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.” [Matthew 9:26]. We see how they all marvel and were greatly astonished at so great a miracle, as to bring life back to the dead and cause her to get up and eat [even as Jesus did after His own resurrection]. Of all of these texts, we may find similar words and events transpiring for the dead boy of the widow of Nain who was resurrected. Look for the words “weep”, “arise”, etc in Luke 7:12-17.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-48/#post62721039

III Angeli Nuntius said:

The 2nd Text I choose - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-48/#post62721039 :
Samuel the Prophet wasn’t sleeping (1 Sam. 28:7-19)...

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Here are the texts of 1 Samuel 28:1-25; 31:1-13; 2 Samuel 1:1-4,23; 1 Chronicles 10:1-14

1 SAMUEL 28:1-25

And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their armies together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David, Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me to battle, thou and thy men. 1 Samuel 28:1

And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever. 1 Samuel 28:2

Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. 1 Samuel 28:3

And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa. 1 Samuel 28:4

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 1 Samuel 28:5

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. 1 Samuel 28:6

Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, [there is] a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 1 Samuel 28:7

And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee. 1 Samuel 28:8

And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 1 Samuel 28:9

And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 1 Samuel 28:10

Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 1 Samuel 28:11

And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul. 1 Samuel 28:12

And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 1 Samuel 28:13

And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself. 1 Samuel 28:14

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 1 Samuel 28:15

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 1 Samuel 28:16

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, [even] to David: 1 Samuel 28:17

Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 1 Samuel 28:18

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 1 Samuel 28:19

Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night. 1 Samuel 28:20

And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me. 1 Samuel 28:21

Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way. 1 Samuel 28:22

But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed. 1 Samuel 28:23

And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded [it], and did bake unleavened bread thereof: 1 Samuel 28:24

And she brought [it] before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night. 1 Samuel 28:25

1 SAMUEL 31:1-13

Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 1 Samuel 31:1

And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul's sons. 1 Samuel 31:2

And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers. 1 Samuel 31:3

Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 1 Samuel 31:4

And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him. 1 Samuel 31:5

So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together. 1 Samuel 31:6

And when the men of Israel that [were] on the other side of the valley, and [they] that [were] on the other side Jordan, saw that the men of Israel fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, they forsook the cities, and fled; and the Philistines came and dwelt in them. 1 Samuel 31:7

And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his three sons fallen in mount Gilboa. 1 Samuel 31:8

And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish [it in] the house of their idols, and among the people. 1 Samuel 31:9

And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan. 1 Samuel 31:10

And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul; 1 Samuel 31:11

All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there. 1 Samuel 31:12

And they took their bones, and buried [them] under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days. 1 Samuel 31:13

2 SAMUEL 1:1-4,23

Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Amalekites, and David had abode two days in Ziklag; 2 Samuel 1:1

It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and [so] it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance. 2 Samuel 1:2

And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped. 2 Samuel 1:3

And David said unto him, How went the matter? I pray thee, tell me. And he answered, That the people are fled from the battle, and many of the people also are fallen and dead; and Saul and Jonathan his son are dead also. 2 Samuel 1:4

Saul and Jonathan [were] lovely and pleasant in their lives, and in their death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions. 2 Samuel 1:23

1 CHRONICLES 10:1-14

Now the Philistines fought against Israel; and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 1 Chronnicles 10:1

And the Philistines followed hard after Saul, and after his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, the sons of Saul. 1 Chronicles 10:2

And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him, and he was wounded of the archers. 1 Chronicles 10:3

Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 1 Chronicles 10:4

And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise on the sword, and died. 1 Chronicles 10:5

So Saul died, and his three sons, and all his house died together. 1 Chronicles 10:6

And when all the men of Israel that [were] in the valley saw that they fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, then they forsook their cities, and fled: and the Philistines came and dwelt in them. 1 Chronicles 10:7

And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his sons fallen in mount Gilboa. 1 Chronicles 10:8

And when they had stripped him, they took his head, and his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to carry tidings unto their idols, and to the people. 1 Chronicles 10:9

And they put his armour in the house of their gods, and fastened his head in the temple of Dagon. 1 Chronicles 10:10

And when all Jabeshgilead heard all that the Philistines had done to Saul, 1 Chronicles 10:11

They arose, all the valiant men, and took away the body of Saul, and the bodies of his sons, and brought them to Jabesh, and buried their bones under the oak in Jabesh, and fasted seven days. 1 Chronicles 10:12

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it]; 1 Chronicles 10:13

And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. 1 Chronicles 10:14

III Angeli Nuntius said:

Cited Texts: http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749019

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Before we see what we may gain from the texts, let's consider the background leading up to them, as they have a direct bearing upon the last events of Saul before his death:

God, after taking out of the world for Himself a peculiar and chosen people [Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 14:2, 26:18; Psalms 135:4; even as we Christians are called to be Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 2:9], Israel [Deuteronomy 4:20], so ruled directly over the children of Israel in a Heavenly Theocracy [Divine Government], “before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.” [Genesis 36:31]. After some time had passed, and the hearts of the people began to turn away from the Lord, there was the time of the periods of the Judges [see book of Judges] and “In those days [there was] no king in Israel, [but] every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes.” [Judges 17:6; see also Judges 21:25], but at the end of the periods of these Judges came the sons of old prophet/seer [1 Samuel 9:9,18,19] Samuel, “And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.” [1 Samuel 8:1], which “...walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.” [1 Samuel 8:3]. This brought the people to sin further by asking for them a human King over them [“...that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness [is] great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.” [1 Samuel 12:17]] instead of God, “Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,” [1 Samuel 8:4]; “And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.” [1 Samuel 8:5] and the peoples “refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;” [1 Samuel 8:19]; “That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.” [1 Samuel 8:20] and so a human king of Israel was to be chosen by God over them, “And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.” [1 Samuel 8:22].

Such a human king over Israel was to be chosen, and so it was that person “whose name [was] Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and [there was] not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward [he was] higher than any of the people.” [1 Samuel 9:2] of whom was found of the tribe of Benjamin [1 Samuel 9:1,2], being “a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin?” [1 Samuel 9:21], for Samuel had already known of the person even before he came [1 Samuel 9:15,19,20], for God had told Samuel, “To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him [to be] captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.” [1 Samuel 9:16]; “And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people.” [1 Samuel 9:17].

This Saul, though “a choice young man, and a goodly” and tall, even “higher than any of the people”, was at the first humble and shy, obedient in seeking the counsel of God, even at the feet of the prophet of the Lord, Samuel [1 Samuel 9:18,19], “(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for [he that is] now [called] a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)” [1 Samuel 9:9]; “Then said Saul to his servant, Well said; come, let us go. So they went unto the city where the man of God [was].” [1 Samuel 9:10]; and when Saul was told that it was upon him and all his “father's house” that “all the desire of Israel” [1 Samuel 9:20] rested, that “...Saul answered and said, [Am] not I a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin? wherefore then speakest thou so to me?” [1 Samuel 9:21]. When told what to do by the prophet Samuel, Saul at the first listened and obeyed, and so became the anointed of the Lord and made King over Israel, even prophesying and given a new heart: “[And] as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, Bid the servant pass on before us, (and he passed on,) but stand thou still a while, that I may shew thee the word of God.” [1 Samuel 9:27]; “Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured [it] upon his head, and kissed him, and said, [Is it] not because the LORD hath anointed thee [to be] captain over his inheritance?” [1 Samuel 10:1]; “And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.” [1 Samuel 10:6]; “And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, [that] thou do as occasion serve thee; for God [is] with thee.” [1 Samuel 10:7]; “And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, [and] to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.” [1 Samuel 10:8]; “And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.” [1 Samuel 10:9], and yet he was still meek and shy enough that when all the people asked after Saul, they could not find him, for he was in hiding, “Therefore they enquired of the LORD further, if the man should yet come thither. And the LORD answered, Behold, he hath hid himself among the stuff.” [1 Samuel 10:22] and the people “...they ran and fetched him thence: and when he stood among the people, he was higher than any of the people from his shoulders and upward.” [1 Samuel 10:23] and so “...all the people went to Gilgal; and there they made Saul king before the LORD in Gilgal; and there they sacrificed sacrifices of peace offerings before the LORD; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.” [1 Samuel 11:15]

But already there was a forewarning by God, that if they would not obey Him, He would not protect them, “But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as [it was] against your fathers.” [1 Samuel 12:15]; “But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.” [1 Samuel 12:25]. It is here that we have the foreshadowing of the downfall of King Saul and the peoples, from exalted by grace to abased in disgrace.

Though Saul at the early outset of his kingship, “Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel,” [1 Samuel 13:1], was walking with the Lord, he began to become impatient and take things into his own control, and when his sin made known, to make excuses for them, and so we see that the Kingdom was to be taken from him and given to another, even prophesied of Samuel, long before any 'spirit' 'summoned' of the witch of Endor said anything:

“And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel [had appointed]: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.” [1 Samuel 13:8]; “And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.” [1 Samuel 13:9]; “And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.” [1 Samuel 13:10]; “And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and [that] thou camest not within the days appointed, and [that] the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;” [1 Samuel 13:11]; “Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.” [1 Samuel 13:12]; “And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.” [1 Samuel 13:13]; “But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him [to be] captain over his people, because thou hast not kept [that] which the LORD commanded thee.” [1 Samuel 13:14]

All false worship is made in such a way, where it has the appearance and semblance of true religion and of acceptance with God, yet it does not, for it is even after the way of Cain [Genesis 4:5], even as it will be in the end, true worship vs the false [see Revelation 12-18, etc; “worship”].

Saul also began to make foolish oaths and human tests not appointed of God, which endangered the health of the people, even his own son Jonathan, which were only his, by permission, gift and stewardship of God. Thus it was that we see Saul, instead of being sacrificial for the people and their wellbeing, made them to suffer for his honor, that he would be avenged upon his enemies:

“And the men of Israel were distressed that day: for Saul had adjured the people, saying, Cursed [be] the man that eateth [any] food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies. So none of the people tasted [any] food.” [1 Samuel 14:24]; “Then answered one of the people, and said, Thy father straitly charged the people with an oath, saying, Cursed [be] the man that eateth [any] food this day. And the people were faint.” [1 Samuel 14:28]; “Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey.” [1 Samuel 14:29]

This rashness, foolishness and sin of King Saul, thus led the people into sin [1 Samuel 14:33-34], for their faintness, they did which is forbidden of them to do, which it is forbidden for any follower of God to eat the blood [Leviticus 17:2; many, many texts, even in the New Testament, etc], and is a warning to all leadership [take ye heed ye leaders and under-shepherds of the flock of the Lord]:

“And they smote the Philistines that day from Michmash to Aijalon: and the people were very faint.” [1 Samuel 14:31]; “And the people flew upon the spoil, and took sheep, and oxen, and calves, and slew [them] on the ground: and the people did eat [them] with the blood.” [1 Samuel 14:32]

Yet all was not yet lost for Saul, though the Kingdom was yet lost to him, he may have been forgiven, and had other chances, but in these he also did not obey, and made excuses, claiming to have obeyed, even unto the honor of God, but did not carry out the commands of the Lord:

“Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee [to be] king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.” [1 Samuel 15:1]; “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” [1 Samuel 15:3]; “But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all [that was] good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing [that was] vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.” [1 Samuel 15:9]; “Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,” [1 Samuel 15:10]; “It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.” [1 Samuel 15:11]; “And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed [be] thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.” [1 Samuel 15:13]; “And Samuel said, What [meaneth] then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?” [1 Samuel 15:14]; “And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.” [1 Samuel 15:15]; “Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on.” [1 Samuel 15:16]; “And Samuel said, When thou [wast] little in thine own sight, [wast] thou not [made] the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?” [1 Samuel 15:17]; “And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.” [1 Samuel 15:18]; “Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?” [1 Samuel 15:19]; “And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.” [1 Samuel 15:20]; “But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.” [1 Samuel 15:21]; “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.” [1 Samuel 15:22]

III Angeli Nuntius said:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749040

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But notice carefully these next words, for they have a great deal to do with the texts we are to consider more closely, “For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.” [1 Samuel 15:23]; for it is clear that the “rebellion” of Saul even led him unto utilizing “witchcraft” in the end.

Saul even acknowledges his sin before Samuel, saying that he sinned because he feared not God, but the people, “And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.” [1 Samuel 15:24], and since this was so, Saul was rejected as King over Israel by God, “Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.” [1 Samuel 15:25]; “And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.” [1 Samuel 15:26]. However Saul, like a little child, unwilling to accept the judgment, still rebelled, and tried to keep Samuel from leaving, and even tore the mantle of Samuel, “And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.” [1 Samuel 15:27], thus the Kingdom was rent from Saul that very day, “And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, [that is] better than thou.” [1 Samuel 15:28], though he would yet remain until his death. Samuel had to then carry out the Word of the Lord, which Saul refused to do, “And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.” [1 Samuel 15:33], and so we come to a very important text, which reveals that Samuel the prophet left Saul permanently, and came no more unto him at all and mourned for him, “And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.” [1 Samuel 15:33].

After this, wherein Saul rejected the counsel of God, and of the prophet and would no longer humble himself, and heed the Word of the Lord, another was to reign in his stead, even King David, since Saul had grieved away the Holy Spirit of God, and from that day forward, “an evil spirit” came continually and “troubled him”, and this is important to notice, as we come to the “familiar spirit” that later addresses him by the witch of Endor:

“And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.” [1 Samuel 16:1]; “Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.” [1 Samuel 16:13]; “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” [1 Samuel 16:14]; “And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.” [1 Samuel 16:15]

From this point forward, Saul becomes worse in thought and deed, becoming increasingly jealous, and filled with a conspiratorial mind [1 Samuel 22:8] and plotting secretly and openly to murder the innocent King David by various means, even using his own daughter “Michal” in a plot, and also prophesying by “the evil spirit”:

“And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed [but] thousands: and [what] can he have more but the kingdom?” [1 Samuel 18:8]; “And Saul eyed David from that day and forward.” [1 Samuel 18:9]; “And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand.” [1 Samuel 18:10]; “And Saul cast the javelin; for he said, I will smite David even to the wall [with it]. And David avoided out of his presence twice.” [1 Samuel 18:11]; “And Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him, and was departed from Saul.” [1 Samuel 18:12]; “And Saul said to David, Behold my elder daughter Merab, her will I give thee to wife: only be thou valiant for me, and fight the LORD'S battles. For Saul said, Let not mine hand be upon him, but let the hand of the Philistines be upon him.” [1 Samuel 18:17]; “And Michal Saul's daughter loved David: and they told Saul, and the thing pleased him.” [1 Samuel 18:20]; “And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in [the one of] the twain.” [1 Samuel 18:21]; “And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies. But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines.” [1 Samuel 18:25]; “And Saul was yet the more afraid of David; and Saul became David's enemy continually.” [1 Samuel 18:29]

Saul continually attempted to murder King David, and even to involve his son Jonathan:

“And Saul spake to Jonathan his son, and to all his servants, that they should kill David.” [1 Samuel 19:1]; “But Jonathan Saul's son delighted much in David: and Jonathan told David, saying, Saul my father seeketh to kill thee: now therefore, I pray thee, take heed to thyself until the morning, and abide in a secret [place], and hide thyself:” [1 Samuel 19:2]; “And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with [his] hand.” [1 Samuel 19:9]; “And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin; but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night.” [1 Samuel 19:10]; “Saul also sent messengers unto David's house, to watch him, and to slay him in the morning: and Michal David's wife told him, saying, If thou save not thy life to night, to morrow thou shalt be slain.” [1 Samuel 19:11]; “And Saul sent the messengers [again] to see David, saying, Bring him up to me in the bed, that I may slay him.” [1 Samuel 19:15]

However, Jonathan would not take part, and helped David to flee to Ramah, where the prophet Samuel was, and for this Saul became furious at Jonathan with abusive language and acts, seeking not the will of God to have another reign instead of the line of Saul, but he instead still sought to keep the throne and the line through Jonathan:

“And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What have I done? what [is] mine iniquity? and what [is] my sin before thy father, that he seeketh my life?” [1 Samuel 20:1]; “Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious [woman], do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?” [1 Samuel 20:30]; “For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.” [1 Samuel 20:31]; “And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him: whereby Jonathan knew that it was determined of his father to slay David.” [1 Samuel 20:33]

King Saul even ordered the slaying of 85 of the priests of the LORD God which had helped King David in innocence, and also a whole city of Nob was attacked, killing men, women and children and babes and livestock:

“And the king said, Thou shalt surely die, Ahimelech, thou, and all thy father's house.” [1 Samuel 22:16]; “And the king said unto the footmen that stood about him, Turn, and slay the priests of the LORD; because their hand also [is] with David, and because they knew when he fled, and did not shew it to me. But the servants of the king would not put forth their hand to fall upon the priests of the LORD.” [1 Samuel 22:17]; “And the king said to Doeg, Turn thou, and fall upon the priests. And Doeg the Edomite turned, and he fell upon the priests, and slew on that day fourscore and five persons that did wear a linen ephod.” [1 Samuel 22:18]; “And Nob, the city of the priests, smote he with the edge of the sword, both men and women, children and sucklings, and oxen, and asses, and sheep, with the edge of the sword.” [1 Samuel 22:19]; “And Abiathar shewed David that Saul had slain the LORD'S priests.” [1 Samuel 22:21]

Saul, even after all of this evil, still thought that He was in favor with God, even claiming that God was delivering King David into his hand, and thus we see a fulfillment of a principle, “the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.” [John 16:2], and thus we shall see this again at the last days, even soon to come, for those religionists which think they honor God in the “first [day] of the week” [sunday], but are in transgression of the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, even the 4th Commandment speaking of the 7th Day the Sabbath of the Lord thy God [Exodus 20:8-11], even deceived [Revelation 13:14], because they will have chosen such in opposition to God's Law [Psalms 119:126] and refused the counsel of God [Hosea 4:6] against themselves [Luke 7:30], refusing to leave Babylon the Great, that Mother of Harlots, of which God said, “Come out of her my people” [Revelation 18:4] will seek to eliminate [Revelation 13:12,15,16, 20:4] those which “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” [Revelation 14:12], even “hav[ing] the testimony of Jesus Christ” [Revelation 12:17]:

“And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.” [1 Samuel 23:7]

And so Saul, called even for “war” against King David, “And Saul called all the people together to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men.” [1 Samuel 23:8], and continually “secretly practised mischief against” [1 Samuel 23:9] King David, seeking “him every day” [1 Samuel 23:14] having “come out to seek his life” [1 Samuel 23:15], and “took three thousand men out of all Israel, and when to seek David and his men” [1 Samuel 24:2] pursuing David, and “huntest” the “soul” [living person] of David “to take it” [1 Samuel 24:11], for as it is written, “Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:...” [1 Samuel 24:13]. Whereas David sought not to harm Saul, “mine hand shall not be upon thee” [1 Samuel 24:12,13] Saul on the other hand, “have rewarded thee evil” [1 Samuel 24:17] of David. The LORD would both “judge” and “avenge” [1 Samuel 24:12].

Saul blamed everyone but himself for his choices, “That all of you have conspired against me, and [there is] none that sheweth me that my son hath made a league with the son of Jesse, and [there is] none of you that is sorry for me, or sheweth unto me that my son hath stirred up my servant against me, to lie in wait, as at this day?” [1 Samuel 22:8]

Saul even after all these, and long before going to the witch of Endor, comes to acknowledge that David would be King, “And now, behold, I know well that thou shalt surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be established in thine hand.” [1 Samuel 24:20]; “Swear now therefore unto me by the LORD, that thou wilt not cut off my seed after me, and that thou wilt not destroy my name out of my father's house.” [1 Samuel 24:21]; “And David sware unto Saul. And Saul went home; but David and his men gat them up unto the hold.” [1 Samuel 24:22]

III Angeli Nuntius said:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749045

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Samuel the Prophet, afterward, then dies and the peoples buried him in Ramah, “And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah. And David arose, and went down to the wilderness of Paran.” [1 Samuel 25:1]

Others of the land already recognize, long before the witch of Endor and her “familiar spirit”, that David is to be made King in Saul's stead:

“I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee [all] thy days.” [1 Samuel 25:28]; “Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, [as out] of the middle of a sling.” [1 Samuel 25:29]; “And it shall come to pass, when the LORD shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel;” [1 Samuel 25:30]

Saul still sought to hurt David and takes his own daughter, Michal, David's wife and gives her to another in David's absence in the wilderness, “But Saul had given Michal his daughter, David's wife, to Phalti the son of Laish, which [was] of Gallim.” [1 Samuel 25:44], and David speaks in the wilderness, even a foretelling, “David said furthermore, [As] the LORD liveth, the LORD shall smite him; or his day shall come to die; or he shall descend into battle, and perish.” [1 Samuel 26:10]; and Saul, though as many times like Pharoah turns back, does not out of true repentance, but still his own words condemn him, “...I have sinned ... I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly.” [1 Samuel 26:21]

Then came the Philistines and attacked Israel, and we come to the very texts we are to consider in regards to Samuel the Prophet, “And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their armies together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David, Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me to battle, thou and thy men.” [1 Samuel 28:1]

Stop spamming. No one but you has posted in this thread in three days. And the last 10 posts were you posting a wall of copy/paste stuff. That's spamming.

Nobody's interested.

Tallguy88 said:

Stop spamming. No one but you has posted in this thread in three days. And the last 10 posts were you posting a wall of copy/paste stuff. That's spamming.

Nobody's interested.

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Actually that is a false accusation [and who is the accuser of the brethren?], and I have witnesses, for I have written over the weekend [Friday and Sunday [Today]], of which my own family has seen, and the Lord has seen, and angels have seen and recorded, and I wrote it in a separate manner and have just now posted it together. You will not find it anywhere else upon the internet.

I am replying to a direct challenge, as is noted by the links provided. That they have backed away is their business, but upon my end, my word is kept.

Others are always reading, and yourself just posted. You are free to respond to any post, but please take your time and consider, for any hasty posted reply, is easily responded to.

The lie of satan will continue to be exposed.

Even if it's not copy and pasted, ten posts by one user in a row, over two or three days is spam. If no one wants to talk about this stuff, then let the thread die. Start a new one about something else. But to continually post in one thread when no one seems interested is rude.

Btw, why should I take time to read your links when you call my faith the "lie of Satan"?

Tallguy88 said:

Even if ...

Btw, why should I take time to read your links when you call my faith the "lie of Satan"?

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I spake the truth, and yet it is said, "Even if..."

All should take the time to study to shew themselves approved unto God, because God Himself commands it be done. All are responsible.

Do you find scriptural fault with the responses?

God said, "...surely die..."
Satan said, "...not surely die..."

One is the lie, which do you hold it is?

Triple Tiara Origens:

The papal tiara originated from a conical Phrygian cap or frigium.[2][3] Shaped like a candle-extinguisher, the papal tiara and the episcopal mitre were identical in their early forms.[2]
Names used for the papal tiara in the 8th and 9th centuries include camelaucum, pileus, phrygium and pileum phrygium.[2]
A circlet of linen or cloth of gold at the base of the tiara developed into a metal crown, which by about 1300 became two crowns. The first of these appeared at the base of the traditional white papal headgear in the 9th century.[4][5] When the popes assumed temporal power in the Papal States, the base crown became decorated with jewels to resemble the crowns of princes.[4] The second crown is said to have been added by Pope Innocent III (1198–1216) as signifying both his spiritual and temporal power since he declared that God had set him over kings and kingdoms.[2] However, a fresco in the Chapel of Saint Sylvester (consecrated in 1247) in the church of the Santi Quattro Coronati in Rome seems to represent the Pope wearing a tiara with two bands and with lappets.[6] The triple tiara is attributed to Pope Benedict XI (1303–1304) or Pope Clement V (1305–1314), and one such tiara was listed in an inventory of the papal treasury in 1316[2] (see "Tiara of Saint Sylvester", below). The first years of the 16th century saw the addition of a little globe and cross to top the tiara.[7]

Mosaic depicting Pope Clement VIII wearing a triple tiara.


Triple tiaras were worn by the popes of Rome from Pope Clement V, at the time when they lived at Avignon, to Pope Paul VI, who was crowned with one in 1963. Pope Paul VI abandoned the use of his own tiara after the Second Vatican Council, symbolically laying it on the altar of St. Peter's Basilica, and donating its value to the poor. However, his 1975 Apostolic Constitution Romano Pontifici Eligendo on the manner of electing the Pope, still envisaged that his successors would be crowned.
His immediate successor, Pope John Paul I, decided against a coronation, replacing it with a generic "Inauguration of the Supreme Pontificate". After John Paul I's sudden death, Pope John Paul II told the congregation at the solemn inauguration of his pontificate.
...............there's a paragraph insert here my netbook couldn't select on, a well written appeal to disregard the regalia............

Though not currently worn as part of papal regalia, the continuing symbolism of the papal tiara is reflected in its use on the coats of arms of the Holy See and the flag of Vatican City. Until the reign of Benedict XVI the tiara was also the ornament surmounting a Pope's personal coat of arms, as a tasseled hat (under which a 1969 Instruction of the Holy See forbade the placing of a mitre, a second hat)[8] surmounted those of other prelates. In a break with tradition, Pope Benedict XVI's personal coat of arms replaced the tiara with a mitre. This particular mitre contains three levels reminiscent of the three tiers on the papal tiara.[9] The mitre was retained on Pope Francis' personal coat of arms. However, in the coat of arms of the Holy See and of the Vatican City State the triple tiara is kept. See also Tiara of Benedict XVI (2011). Presented to Benedict XVI on 25 May 2011 by a group of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians

It's OK, it's just Wiki.

III Angeli Nuntius said:

I spake the truth, and yet it is said, "Even if..."

All should take the time to study to shew themselves approved unto God, because God Himself commands it be done. All are responsible.

Do you find scriptural fault with the responses?

God said, "...surely die..."
Satan said, "...not surely die..."

One is the lie, which do you hold it is?

Click to expand...

I have studied and found the truth, the pearl of great price. Why would you want me to cast it away?

III Angeli Nuntius said:

Original Post on this Subject - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-48/#post62721039

Answer to "The Spirit of Jairus’ daughter was not sleeping (Luke 8:51-54)"
- [1] [Texts] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62731407
- [2] [Consideration] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62731415

Answer to "Samuel the Prophet wasn’t sleeping (1 Sam. 28:7-19)"
- [1] [Texts] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749019
- [2A] [Context] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749040
- [2B] [Context] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749045
- [2C] [Context] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749051
- [3A] [Consideration] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-49/#post62749067
- [3B] [Consideration] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-50/#post62749072

For the next text I choose - "The thief on the cross didn’t sleep (Luke 23:43)"

All have one day to read, pray, and consider this, that all may know that what is soon about to be given is the Truth. This, 'objection' to God's own words, shall be answered in full then and be put to rest.

God's words will be vindicated, and the words of the serpent will be put to open and naked shame.

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"The thief on the cross didn’t sleep (Luke 23:43)"

Here are the texts and immediate local context of Luke 23:32-33,39-46; John 20:1-31.

LUKE 23:32-33,39-56

And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. Luke 23:32

And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Luke 23:33

And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. Luke 23:39

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? Luke 23:40

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:41

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:42

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43 [KJV]

και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω Luke 23:43 [Greek]

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. Luke 23:44

And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. Luke 23:45

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46

Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man. Luke 23:47

And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. Luke 23:48

And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things. Luke 23:49

And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor; [and he was] a good man, and a just: Luke 23:50

(The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them: ; [he was] of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. Luke 23:51

This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Luke 23:52

And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. Luke 23:53

And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. Luke 23:54

And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. Luke 23:55

And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Luke 23:56


JOHN 20:1-31

The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. John 20:1

Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. John 20:2

Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. John 20:3

So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. John 20:4

And he stooping down, [and looking in], saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. John 20:5

Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, John 20:6

And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. John 20:7

Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. John 20:8

For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. John 20:9

Then the disciples went away again unto their own home. John 20:10

But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, [and looked] into the sepulchre, John 20:11

And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. John 20:12

And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. John 20:13

And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. John 20:14

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. John 20:15

Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. John 20:16

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. John 20:17

Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her. John 20:18

Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. John 20:19

And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. John 20:20

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. John 20:21

And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: John 20:22

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. John 20:23

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. John 20:24

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. John 20:25

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. John 20:26

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. John 20:29

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: John 20:30

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

III Angeli Nuntius said:

Previously Cited Texts - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-50/#post62759843

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Let us see what we shall gain from these texts:

[1] The Greek, The English and the placement of a single punctuation, a “comma”: The King James, as other translations, basically share this format in the English, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and because of where the comma is placed [which normally would not mean so much if misplaced however] in this sentence in the English, it alters an entire doctrine which is taught from Genesis to Revelation, that being that the “dead” are “them which are asleep” [1 Thessalonians 4:13,15] and do not immediately upon death enter “Paradise”, for they must first be resurrected [Matthew 22:30; Luke 20:35, etc].

The Greek Textus Receptus Stephens 1550 has no such comma or punctuation, as seen here “και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω” Luke 23:43 [Greek] Therefore the text is fully inspired of God [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21], but in this rare instance the punctuation of the comma, is incorrectly added and placed, even well after this text was written, and is not inspired since it is in disharmony with all that before it and after it. Almost all of the punctuation in the KJV scripture is perfectly fine, though there are a few rare cases, like this one, and in this particular instance seriously contradicts a biblical doctrine if placed where it is. The comma should actually be after the word “To day” and not before it, like so, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” How are we to know, just guess, just let it be where I decide it should be, or to make it fit what I believe, or rather should it be placed in a position where it is in perfect unison with all of the rest of the scriptures on this particular doctrine? The latter should be our answer, since according to scripture itself, “...the scripture cannot be broken.” [John 10:35] This I truly believe, and will demonstrate.

Additionally, never should any person seek to hang any doctrine upon the case of a punctuation mark, for scripture is always to be understood in such a manner, “For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:” [Isaiah 28:10]


[2] The context of the other Gospel of John reveals that Jesus did not “ascend” to “Paradise” the day of His death at all, for it is written, “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.” John 20:17

This text in context just eliminated any possibility for the comma to be placed before the word “To day”. What Jesus was saying to the thief upon the cross, is that though Jesus did not look like a King with a Kingdom, He indeed was, and that if only the thief would believe His words “thou shalt be with me in Paradise”, he would be resurrected in the First Great Resurrection “at the last day” [John 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24], even “at that day” [2 Timothy 4:8]. Jesus, in opposition to what looked like circumstances unto an eternal end, yet He says to the thief, “Verily, verily I say unto thee to day...”, as in right now, this moment, 'I speak to you the truth'. It is like unto what we find here, “For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,” [Psalms 95:7; see also Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7], for Jesus is saying, 'Believe my words to day...' and 'have faith in my word this moment' and 'trust me now', even as it is written, “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)” [2 Corinthians 6:2]


[3] Another point to consider, is that Luke is the only one which records these words “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee* To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and therefore, before any conclude to utilize this text in favor of the erroneous “immortal soul/spirit” theology, ought to consider more context on the whole. Especially since Luke says, “Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,” [Luke 1:1]; “Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;” [Luke 1:2]; “It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,” [Luke 1:3]; “That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.” [Luke 1:4] Therefore let us be circumspect and very careful, not to fall into the trap of those which “wrest” [2 Peter 3:16] the scriptures, or as those which “corrupt the Word of God” [2 Corinthians 2:17] as do others. It would be quite dangerous to simply take a single text and claim it proves any doctrine, for a board with one nail in it, will spin all around, but a board with several nails through will be stable. Therefore, we need to consider this texts with the context which surrounds it and those events, otherwise we would be as satan which only quotes certain portions of any text or context [Matthew 4:6].