Where is Calvinism

crimsonleaf said:

Surely you're not saying that God grants us our belief based upon our belief..?

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. The same thought just crossed my mind

travelah said:

No, I spend more time interacting with Calvinists. I consider them a greater threat to the faith of uninformed saints than Pelagians. Most who exhibit Pelagian tendencies really have little idea what any of it means. As for Calvinism, I despise it. It as gross an in-house error as can be conceived and still be within the pale of acceptable Christianity. I don't view the "Pelagian" theology as being particularly evil. I don't agree with it but it does not demean the character and goodness of God as Calvinist theology does. Jack Cottrell as an example is a great man of God even though I disagree with him on several issues. There are very few Calvinist theologians that I have much respect for.

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I'm just curious - from a synergist perspective, what is the difference between you and me? Why do you believe rightly while I believe erroneously? Am I just simply not as smart as you? Why is it that I see such a significant part of Scripture so wrongly? (By the way, I was a synergist my whole life up until about five years ago so my traditions can't be blamed.)

Skala said:

Not exactly. I'm quite confident in the historic authenticity of monergism.

I was simply reminding everyone that the Bible is the final authority, not what some ECF allegedly believed. Many times their quotes are taken out of context, or worse, seemingly contradictory.

Anyone who has any agenda can find an obscure ECF quote that supposedly supports or teaches a particular doctrine.

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Monergism is not the issue. Your Calvinsm is.

The Boxer said:

Westminster Confession chapter xxxi

3. All synods or councils, since the Apostles' times, whether general or particular, may err; and many have erred. Therefore they are not to be made the rule of faith, or practice; but to be used as a help in both.

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You are making my point.

travelah said:

Monergism is not the issue. Your Calvinsm is.

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What is the difference?

travelah said:

Monergism is not the issue. Your Calvinsm is.

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Actually it is synergism that has stirred controversy throughout Christian history, and time and time again church councils have met to shut it down.

First at Orange, then at Dordt.

Never has synergism been put forth as the biblical view of the bride of Christ.

Skala said:

Never has synergism been put forth as the biblical view of the bride of Christ.

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It's amazing to me that the word "synergism" isn't enough to cause people concern. The very definition of the word should make every Christian shudder. Who did Jonah say salvation is of?

Alas, some folks would rather believe God chose them because they plucked themselves out of the miry clay and set themselves apart from those stiff-necked unbelievers. Those horrible people just won't believe like us!! If only they'd do what we did!! Ugh some folks are just so stubborn!!

travelah said:

No, I spend more time interacting with Calvinists. I consider them a greater threat to the faith of uninformed saints than Pelagians. Most who exhibit Pelagian tendencies really have little idea what any of it means. As for Calvinism, I despise it. It as gross an in-house error as can be conceived and still be within the pale of acceptable Christianity. I don't view the "Pelagian" theology as being particularly evil. I don't agree with it but it does not demean the character and goodness of God as Calvinist theology does. Jack Cottrell as an example is a great man of God even though I disagree with him on several issues. There are very few Calvinist theologians that I have much respect for.

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Any system which claims that man has the power and ability of and in himself alone to make himself acceptable to God - or to be saved on his own is heretical - such as pelagianism. It mocks the cross of Christ. You would be better served fighting such a system.

*bump*

That was fun.

Synergism is the prominent belief of all Catholicism, whether it be Roman, Eastern Orthodox, etc.
These churches are very old and are the direct fruit from the genesis of Christianity. They are the ones that canonized St. Augustine, who brought forth the notion of total depravity.
So it's a bit of a conflict of interest for reformed Christians to wedge a saint between them and the churches who canonized him.

Calvinism is reminiscent of Purgatory to me. Not because they have anything to do with each other, but for the reason they came into being in the first place.
They are, for lack of a better way of putting it, 'scientific' doctrines. They are drawn up as a result of noticing certain things of what a fundamental belief demands, and having to reconcile them.

For example, Purgatory exists in Catholicism because in order to be infused with God in finality, you have to be purged of all sins and sin nature- that even in forgiveness, the perfection of God requires satisfaction. He cannot justify evil, or look upon it.

With the reformers, they deduced that if God is omnipotent, and completely sovereign, then it is in fact impossible for us to do much more then participate in what He has already rolled out the wagon.

And that is true, there is no rational way out of that observation. Nobody really denies that, but it's not something that necessarily bars synergism either. In fact, it is very well the keystone of synergism the same as reformists see it for their monergism.

We can't accept everybody's claim to being "Christian". That's nuts ! Satan has been working overtime to counterfeit false religion !

We must be very discerning here.

We all agree that there's various forms of non-salvific "faith".

The issue here being whether "Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith" (Hebrews 12:2 NIV) is clueless as to it's genuineness !

If indeed He is the author of faith, why would He have to judge our works to ascertain whether it's Saving Faith ...or something less ?

No, works indicate to us whether those people calling themselves "Christians" actually in fact belong to Christ. God alone knowing the hearts of men (2 Chronicles 6:30) need not weigh our works.

The arguments these guys make sound exactly like those I've heard from Romanist apologists defending their false doctrine of synergistic salvation:

We're saved by a combination of faith and our own works.

Like most everything else in their soteriology, faith is the result of 'grace-enabled human works'.

All non-Reformation systems are synergistic.

Whereas the Romanists give almost equal weight to human works and grace, the Word-Faith folks are much more subtle.

They'll say it's mostly grace ...we only provide the faith.

Well, Scripture depicts faith as a "gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8 NIV).

We don't save ourselves even a little itty bit !

We're justified entirely by grace or we ain't justified.

Hence it don't matter whether you think you saved yourself by all your grace-enabled works (Romanism), or saved yourself by a "decision for Christ" you made (protestant synergism).

The only people justified before God are those who have been saved 100% by Jesus Christ and 0% by themselves !

"There is salvation in no one else" (Acts 4:12 NASB)

To any extent someone believes they contributed to their own salvation by their merit, good works, choices, or a decision ...to THAT extent they'll have to stand before the Lord at the Judgment and justify themselves outside Christ.

griff said:

It's amazing to me that the word "synergism" isn't enough to cause people concern. The very definition of the word should make every Christian shudder. Who did Jonah say salvation is of?

Alas, some folks would rather believe God chose them because they plucked themselves out of the miry clay and set themselves apart from those stiff-necked unbelievers. Those horrible people just won't believe like us!! If only they'd do what we did!! Ugh some folks are just so stubborn!!

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You should believe these very words of Jesus; they should make you shudder.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Arcoe, considering that 100% of individuals have broken every single one of God's laws, who exactly has done good?

Are you saying you've done good, Arcoe? Compared to who? If you get to heaven, will it be because you did better than someone else who didn't get to heaven?

How exactly is that not human boasting?

Arcoe said:

You should believe these very words of Jesus; they should make you shudder.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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You didn't address anything I said. I think I know why. Oh, and like Hammster said, I'm in Christ so I have no reason to worry.

Are you in Christ?

griff said:

You didn't address anything I said. I think I know why. Oh, and like Hammster said, I'm in Christ so I have no reason to worry.

Are you in Christ?

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It matters not what you believe, what matters are His words. You believe from the head, but you obey from the heart. I addressed what you don't want to hear. Either you do good unto the resurrection of life, or you do evil unto the resurrection of damnation. What is so hard to understand about that?