Doctrines of Jesus or [RC] 'Mary', one or the other, but not both, take your pick...

Albion said:

But if you insist, here's a list you can work on:

Click to expand...

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I hope you don't mind me putting my two cents in.

Samuel the Prophet wasn’t sleeping (1 Sam. 28:7-19)

Click to expand...

Twasn't Samuel, but a demon -
Consider what was said by the figure that Saul supposed was Samuel - “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” If this was actually Saumel, and this Soul was in heaven, shouldn't he have said "Why did you bring me down?" This seance is no different then the ones that are carried on today by witches and mediums. Just as people are deceived by demons in the form of humans, so too was Saul.
And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? Isa 8:19

Moses and Elijah weren’t sleeping (Matt. 17:1-4)

Click to expand...

Moses had been resurrected. Elijah was taken straight to heaven.

The thief on the cross didn’t sleep (Luke 23:43)

Click to expand...

Should read "I promise you today,..." Not "I promise you, today..."
Consider also that Christ told Mary He had not yet ascended to His Father when He was risen.

The Spirit of Jairus’ daughter was not sleeping (Luke 8:51-54)

Click to expand...

Considering that Jesus doesn't speak about her spirit, but her, I would think we should allow His words to tell us how He viewed her:
Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, “Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping.”

Lazarus and the rich man were not sleeping (Luke 16:20-31)

Click to expand...

Parable.

The Old Testament saints weren’t sleeping (Matt. 27:52-53)

Click to expand...

That was a resurrection. And again, let's look at the text - "...and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised..."

The souls in Sheol/Hades Christ preached to weren’t sleeping (Eph. 4:8-10)

Click to expand...

Christ didn't preach to them in the grave. The text is stating that the same Spirit that raised Christ is the same Spirit that preached to those who currently are in the grave, while they were still living.

The Great Cloud of witnesses aren’t sleeping (Heb. 11-12)

Click to expand...

Figurative speech. Kind of like how someone will say "We stand on the shoulders of those who have come before us."

The Heavenly Saints are not sleeping at the Rapture (1 Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thess. 4:16)

Click to expand...

In 1 Cor Paul says - We shall not all sleep. He then goes on to explain how we shall all be changed, the dead first at the sound of the trump, and than those who are alive and remain. Paul echoes this in 1 Thess when he says " For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The elders in John’s Revelation aren’t sleeping (Rev. 4:4, 10)

Click to expand...

They're not dead. The elders are very much alive in their glorified bodies.

The martyred tribulation souls aren’t sleeping (Rev. 6:9-11; 20:11)

Click to expand...

More symbolism. They too are told to rest.

The great multitude redeemed from the great tribulation aren’t sleeping (Rev 7:9, 14)

Click to expand...

Of course not. They're alive and well. These are those redeemed out of tribulation. These are the ones who are "alive and remain" at the second coming of the Lord.

The returning army of Heavenly saints are not sleeping at the Revelation of Christ (Rev. 19:11-14)

Click to expand...

Who says the saints are a part of the heavenly army? Those are the angelic hosts clothed in white robes. Remember that the battle is the Lord's.

Before we get too involved with the nuances of grammar and punctuation ( promise you today vs promise you, today.) I feel the need to point out that originally, scripture had neither punctuation nor word spacing nor capitalization. Therefore, it would be more like "ipromiseyoutoday"

So are we no where or now here?

Tallguy88 said:

Before we get too involved with the nuances of grammar and punctuation ( promise you today vs promise you, today.) I feel the need to point out that originally, scripture had neither punctuation nor word spacing nor capitalization. Therefore, it would be more like "ipromiseyoutoday"

Click to expand...

Tis true. The only reason why I showed the punctuation is because it helps to clarify what was stated. If we removed it altogether it would it would be a mess of run on sentences.

It's kind of like if I told my daughter being able to see the difference between me telling my daughter - "I promise you, today I'll read you a bedtime story" vs "I promise you today, I'll read you a bedtime story"

So Christ used a lie as a Parable ?

In fact, He used an understanding (Bosom of Abraham) that was current among those He spoke to; if their understanding of the afterlife was wrong, why did He fail to correct them on this important point ?

Tallguy88 said:

So you speak with the voice of God and give us an ultimatum?

Why do you feel the need to "enlighten" us? We are happy right where we're at. You wanna believe in no soul, Jesus=michael, and Saturday-only worship, then fine. Go in peace. But why not leave us to our ways, as well?

Click to expand...

I have been challenged and I fully accept. I hope that you may be won - though any are always free to believe as they will, even if it could destroy them.

However, before merely going through them all. I am allowing the opportunity for us to actually study together, read the texts, look at them, ask questions, and consider, instead of merely quoting the references from a list garnered from online and thinking that this answered anything.

I continue to press this issue, for several reasons. It is very dangerous to you and others, not to mention what it does to Jesus Christ. Please actually think about what the immortal soul theology makes of God.

Time, it still moves. Half a day left. Please choose, I do desire to actaully study with you and others.

Thekla said:

So Christ used a lie as a Parable ?

In fact, He used an understanding (Bosom of Abraham) that was current among those He spoke to; if their understanding of the afterlife was wrong, why did He fail to correct them on this important point ?

Click to expand...

It wasn't a lie. A parable is a method of teaching a truth to someone in a way that will make it easier for them to relate to it, or on the other hand, confuse those for who it wasn't meant to be understood.

The truth about the dead had already been established. "The dead know nothing." Knowing that the scriptures had already taught that, it would have been simple to see that Jesus was being figurative in the manner in which he relayed this teaching.

The emphasis would have been on the fact that if the dead actually could return and speak to you, nothing they could say would change the heart of a person who wouldn't accept Moses and the Prophets.

Stryder06 said:

It wasn't a lie. A parable is a method of teaching a truth to someone in a way that will make it easier for them to relate to it, or on the other hand, confuse those for who it wasn't meant to be understood.

The truth about the dead had already been established. "The dead know nothing." Knowing that the scriptures had already taught that, it would have been simple to see that Jesus was being figurative in the manner in which he relayed this teaching.

The emphasis would have been on the fact that if the dead actually could return and speak to you, nothing they could say would change the heart of a person who wouldn't accept Moses and the Prophets.

Click to expand...

There are many who believe that the Bosom of Abraham story was not a parable. I've heard Catholics put forward a good argument that the man was in Purgatory. Of course, Protestants say he was in Hell.

I think the problem with calling it a parable is that there is no indication that it is such. Jesus doesn't say "it is as if..." he tells the story as if it were fact. I don't have my bible in front of me, so if you care to post the relevant passage, Stryder, I'm willing to look at it with you. Not from a standpoint of soul sleep vs. particular judgement, but as parable vs true story.

Stryder06 said:

It wasn't a lie. A parable is a method of teaching a truth to someone in a way that will make it easier for them to relate to it, or on the other hand, confuse those for who it wasn't meant to be understood.

Click to expand...

If the elements of a parable are not correct, then the parable fails (and is not a parable).
Which of the "other parables" used fanciful/untrue elements ?

The truth about the dead had already been established. "The dead know nothing." Knowing that the scriptures had already taught that, it would have been simple to see that Jesus was being figurative in the manner in which he relayed this teaching.

Click to expand...

Those Christ was speaking to would also know the context of this statement (it is not a teaching on the afterlife, but of the effect of the living on each other ...)
They would also be familiar with other teachings, and what was commonly believed -- including (as I have noted before) the testimony of Jeremiah of Rachel's prayer to God made after her death, and God's answer to her.

The emphasis would have been on the fact that if the dead actually could return and speak to you, nothing they could say would change the heart of a person who wouldn't accept Moses and the Prophets.

Click to expand...

Yes, not even resurrection would change such a heart.

But the elements of the parable - common belief - were these wrong would have been corrected. Christ did correct other misunderstandings, wrong beliefs, etc.

Tallguy88 said:

There are many who believe that the Bosom of Abraham story was not a parable. I've heard Catholics put forward a good argument that the man was in Purgatory. Of course, Protestants say he was in Hell.

I think the problem with calling it a parable is that there is no indication that it is such. Jesus doesn't say "it is as if..." he tells the story as if it were fact. I don't have my bible in front of me, so if you care to post the relevant passage, Stryder, I'm willing to look at it with you. Not from a standpoint of soul sleep vs. particular judgement, but as parable vs true story.

Click to expand...

There were more than a few parables that Christ gave, where He simply spoke as if it were a true story. The manner in which it was presented does not determine if it was a parable. It's the message that allows us to know. There are a few things to consider. First would be "The bosom of Abraham", though we should not that Christ does not use this phrase. Rather He says "... he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom". So if we take this as literal, Lazurs did not go to a place referred to as Abraham's Bosom, but directly to Abraham.

Second we should consider the request - Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

Now I don't know about you, but I don't think a single drop of water from Lazurus' finger would bring any amount of comfort to someone being tormented in fire. Also, of course you run into the problem with the fact that he's asking for a drink. If these are the spirits of the rich man and Lazurus, wouldn't that mean that they aren't actually able to drink, considering the fact that they don't have physical bodies? I believe that opens up a few questions you'd have to answer.

Finally we get to the crux of the entire lesson. Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Here Jesus makes it plain that salvation is dependent upon our hearing the word of God as revealed to us through the scriptures. The man realizes he has family that is on their way to where he is, he has family that is lost. He thinks that a person from the dead giving them warning would have great influence over their behavior, but Abraham tells him that if they won't hear "Moses and the Prophets", then they won't hear anyone.

It's probably worth noting that this parable is given directly after Christ speaks out against eh Pharisees. Those who prided themselves on knowing the law, and yet they sough to kill the One it testified about.

Thekla said:

If the elements of a parable are not correct, then the parable fails (and is not a parable).
Which of the "other parables" used fanciful/untrue elements ?

Click to expand...

Who's rule is that? Parable's are object lessons given in a way that will connect with the people that are to receive it. It can be completely make believe and still tell a concrete truth.

Those Christ was speaking to would also know the context of this statement (it is not a teaching on the afterlife, but of the effect of the living on each other ...)
They would also be familiar with other teachings, and what was commonly believed -- including (as I have noted before) the testimony of Jeremiah of Rachel's prayer to God made after her death, and God's answer to her.

Click to expand...

They also would have known the scriptures that said "The dead know not anything".

Yes, not even resurrection would change such a heart.

But the elements of the parable - common belief - were these wrong would have been corrected. Christ did correct other misunderstandings, wrong beliefs, etc.

Click to expand...

You can't assume that because it's not spelled out, that Christ didn't deal with particular erroneous teachings. What is recoreded for us, is that which God has determined would be most beneficial for us. You can't say what Christ should or shouldn't have done in regards to what was or wasn't a "common" belief at the time. All we can do is go off of what the scriptures say, and the scriptures say "The dead know not anything".

How is anything that has been written in the past five hundred posts related to "Jesus vs Mary"?

It seems to just be jumping from one topic to another with the only consistent theme being SDA theology vs. traditional teachings.

Stryder06 said:

There were more than a few parables that Christ gave, where He simply spoke as if it were a true story. The manner in which it was presented does not determine if it was a parable. It's the message that allows us to know. There are a few things to consider. First would be "The bosom of Abraham", though we should not that Christ does not use this phrase. Rather He says "... he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom". So if we take this as literal, Lazurs did not go to a place referred to as Abraham's Bosom, but directly to Abraham.

Second we should consider the request - Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

Now I don't know about you, but I don't think a single drop of water from Lazurus' finger would bring any amount of comfort to someone being tormented in fire. Also, of course you run into the problem with the fact that he's asking for a drink. If these are the spirits of the rich man and Lazurus, wouldn't that mean that they aren't actually able to drink, considering the fact that they don't have physical bodies? I believe that opens up a few questions you'd have to answer.

Finally we get to the crux of the entire lesson. Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Here Jesus makes it plain that salvation is dependent upon our hearing the word of God as revealed to us through the scriptures. The man realizes he has family that is on their way to where he is, he has family that is lost. He thinks that a person from the dead giving them warning would have great influence over their behavior, but Abraham tells him that if they won't hear "Moses and the Prophets", then they won't hear anyone.

It's probably worth noting that this parable is given directly after Christ speaks out against eh Pharisees. Those who prided themselves on knowing the law, and yet they sough to kill the One it testified about.

Click to expand...

But where is the evidence that the elements are false ?

The understanding of going to Abraham's bosom after death were current.

Was that understanding of the afterlife wrong ? Where is the correction if it was ?

Stryder06 said:

Who's rule is that? Parable's are object lessons given in a way that will connect with the people that are to receive it. It can be completely make believe and still tell a concrete truth.

Click to expand...

Again, which of the parables Christ use have false elements ?

Many, for example, use agricultural facts (seed and soil quality, pruning, etc.). Which of these elements are actually false ?

They also would have known the scriptures that said "The dead know not anything".

Click to expand...

Look at the context of that verse ...

You can't assume that because it's not spelled out, that Christ didn't deal with particular erroneous teachings. What is recoreded for us, is that which God has determined would be most beneficial for us. You can't say what Christ should or shouldn't have done in regards to what was or wasn't a "common" belief at the time. All we can do is go off of what the scriptures say, and the scriptures say "The dead know not anything".

Click to expand...

Why would He use false spiritual teachings/elements as a form of instruction; could the point be made no other way ?

Isn't Christ also the Truth ? How then could He use a spiritual lie to teach a spiritual truth ?

Tallguy88 said:

How is anything that has been written in the past five hundred posts related to "Jesus vs Mary"?

It seems to just be jumping from one topic to another with the only consistent theme being SDA theology vs. traditional teachings.

Click to expand...

Not Jesus vs Mary, it is Jesus vs [RC] 'Mary' (this is not whom they think it is...), and therefore it is Jesus vs "an angel of light".

This false "angel" spreads the dangerous doctrine of immortal soul... though he too will perish into smoke and ashes.

Almost the end of the day. Have any decided to consider a single texts with me?

Immortal Soul/spirit theology is a doctrine of satan, right from the Garden of Eden:

Saith the Serpent, "Ye shall not surely die..."; and lo mankind has believed the serpent over and above God, and so out of this arises every worker of iniquity and false doctrine which teaches [ignorantly or knowingly], wresting the scriptures, that those who die, do not really die [as God said, "...thou shalt surely die."], but that they somehow, in some way continue in life, in existence eternally and consciously in death; whether it be Reincarnation, Multiple Lives, Evolution of consciousness [achieving a 'higher state'], "eternal tormented sufferers - whether physically, mentally, spiritually, or other", "Limbo", "Purgatory", "an unbeatific place", "'ghosts of men' to haunt" [ethereal, gaseous, vaporous existence], "prayers for and to the 'dead'", "conjuring", "attempted communication with the 'dead'", "necromancy", "gaia hypothesis [soul recycling]", "men becoming gods", "spiritualism", "immortal soul theology", platonic dualism, Nicolaitan doctrines, ancestor worship [as in the asian philosophies, etc], etc.

Lo, the whole pagan and occult world basically shares this seed and root, and satan even has Christians by the billions believing it - and he mocks, knowing he has them in his snare, unto death, for mankind seems ready to listen to any spirit, to anything that preaches such, rather than God.

Nevermind that the scripture warns that almost the whole world would be deceived by such devils going forth to the whole world, never mind that God seriously told of the consequences to heeding seducing spirits, nevermind that the Scriptures condemn any attempt at communication, in any manner, with those which are dead, nevermind that these 'messengers' claiming to be sent of heaven teach doctrines of devils, and all manner of vice, and to transgress the Holy Law of God, nevermind that people rely upon their 'experience', and 'feeling' and 'emotion' rather than what saith the Word of God.

Nevermind that such a theology of 'immortal soul/spirit' theology makes of God a sadistic monster who will torture and cause unending and unimaginable pain, and the most darkest and hellish nightmares before our understanding throughout ceasless ages, without hope and total despair, in writhing agonies in "their" dantes inferno [or their man-made half-way house of purgatory, for even at their reward, the vast majority must of necessity go through a lesser 'hell' to get to heaven], a vision of satan's idea for humanity. Nevermind what God hath said about heaven and the realness of it, or how we are to get there, even as He said of it, but people would rather have airy non-things, and no real substance to any of it, for they will believe the lie of satan, which will remove God's Law, God's Throne, satan and God Himself, and turn it into fables of non-real-existence, gaseous vapours and ethereal intangibleness. They have satan vaporize heaven, floating on clouds, and doing nothing, while hell is pictured as the most real environ, filled with all manner of vice, and endless cursings in an eternally prolonged, by God mind you, unknown location in sin, shrieking and howling. And whom do they normally give charge to it all, satan himself...

Nevermind what it does to Jesus Christ or the Love of God, or of the Sacrifice of Christ Jesus, to bring unto us immortality, eternal life, as a gift. What a cruel mockery of God to attempt to have us to believe that it was through the Cross that we have immortality, rather than we already possessing it the moment we come to exist.

People just don't think... they do not ask God for light. They do not pray unto Him to explain His word, but rather they believe what they hear others say, they believe the teaching that they were born unto, they believe the devil of God.

They ignore the hundreds of plainest statements in the Bible [the dead know not anything, the dead praise not the Lord, return unto dust, they sleep in death, their thoughts perish, etc, much more to come], and pick out a few texts and hang all their hopes on them, so that they themselves do not have to change, they do not have to pick up their cross and follow Jesus.

God says, "Come out of her my people..." [Revelation 18], and they turn away the shoulder, stop the ears... and decide to stay in.

If any stay in, you will [not might, not maybe, not possibly], but you absolutely will be deceived in the end [and it is your choice], for that which is coming upon the earth, men have not yet seen such a magnitude... and God warned us all.

Rome, and her daughters say, not to scripture for positive evidence, but to other things and philosophies:

"...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

"... For positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm

and of "their" Hell:

... The sinner perseveres forever in his evil disposition.” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, "H"; "Hell"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Here is the following list given to 'prove' it, mainly from the New Testament, from Albion - http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-45/#post62712707

• Samuel the Prophet wasn’t sleeping (1 Sam. 28:7-19)
• Moses and Elijah weren’t sleeping (Matt. 17:1-4)
• The thief on the cross didn’t sleep (Luke 23:43)
• The Spirit of Jairus’ daughter was not sleeping (Luke 8:51-54)
• Lazarus and the rich man were not sleeping (Luke 16:20-31)
• The Old Testament saints weren’t sleeping (Matt. 27:52-53)
• The souls in Sheol/Hades Christ preached to weren’t sleeping (Eph. 4:8-10)
• The Great Cloud of witnesses aren’t sleeping (Heb. 11-12)
• The Heavenly Saints are not sleeping at the Rapture (1 Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thess. 4:16)
• The elders in John’s Revelation aren’t sleeping (Rev. 4:4, 10)
• The martyred tribulation souls aren’t sleeping (Rev. 6:9-11; 20:11)
• The great multitude redeemed from the great tribulation aren’t sleeping (Rev 7:9, 14)
• The returning army of Heavenly saints are not sleeping at the Revelation of Christ (Rev. 19:11-14)

For those which consider these passages [or others], do so slowly, prayerfully, in context, and with all the scriptures on the subject. For one part of scripture cannot be made to contradict another, for "the scriptures cannot be broken" John 10:35.

In study, we are to take the great themes of the Bible, from Genesis [the very seed of the Bible, in which every doctrine may be found to germinate] unto Revelation, were every doctrine is seen in full bloom.

Here are some websites, videos, books and materials to consider on your own time, apart from what is about to be given from Scripture:

Doctrines that Divide; Afterlife.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zi2teWAUFo

The Mystic Realm of Death [ http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/135/222-232K/ ]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4GtU_rqFww

Truth About Death Web
http://www.truthaboutdeath.com/

Ghost Truth Web
http://www.ghosttruth.com/default.aspx

Hell Truth Web
http://www.helltruth.com/

Is the Virgin Mary Dead Or Alive? PDF Book - read it.
http://www.virginmarybook.com/books/Is the Virgin Mary.pdf

Hellfire Part 1 - short [1:30 minutes]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9l1qzFyvD8

Hellfire Part 2 - short [2:01 minutes]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLnGT9B0ho8

Hellfire Exposed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqtqaZPs_dI

Deadly Delusions [ http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/367/t/deadly-delusions.aspx ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01PsFxakIPI

Are The Dead Really Dead? [study guide & video]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4987/t/are-the-dead-really-dead.aspx

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/409/t/are-the-dead-really-dead.aspx

The Witch Of Endor [Video]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/383/t/the-witch-of-endor.aspx

Confusion In The Cemetery [Video]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/1002/t/confusion-in-the-cemetery.aspx

Spirits Of The Dead [pocketbook]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/48/t/spirits-of-the-dead.aspx

Absent From The Body [pocketbook]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/4/t/absent-from-the-body.aspx

Is the Devil In Charge Of Hell? [Study Guide & Video]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4988/t/is-the-devil-in-charge-of-hell.aspx

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/410/t/is-the-devil-in-charge-of-hell.aspx

Cities Of Ash [Storacle Lesson & Video]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/storacle/e/5335/t/cities-of-ash.aspx

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/384/t/cities-of-ash.aspx

The Lake Of Fire [Video]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/368/t/the-lake-of-fire.aspx

The Rich Man And Lazarus [pocketbook and Video]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/71/t/the-rich-man-and-lazarus.aspx

http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/1003/t/the-rich-man-and-lazarus.aspx

Hellfire, Twisted Truth Untangled [pocketbook]
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/30/t/hellfire-a-twisted-truth-untangled.aspx

Soul and Spirit [resource]
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm

Immortality, Conditional or Unconditional? [resource]
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm

Atheistic Evolutionist, Catholic and spiritualist, to Creationist and 7th Day Adventist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlJH7A5NHT8

A Trip Into The Supernatural [testimony of a spiritualist to 7th Day Adventist]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLdzObn4lrY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ird-BKuPRlw

From here on, I will be referring back to this post, and crossing out those texts which have subsequently been addressed in future according to the context, locally [immediate verses], regionally [chapter/book] and globally [Bible, OT and NT].

Thekla said:

So Christ used a lie as a Parable ?

In fact, He used an understanding (Bosom of Abraham) that was current among those He spoke to; if their understanding of the afterlife was wrong, why did He fail to correct them on this important point ?

Click to expand...

]Parables = lies? Interesting. Referring to the one statement or all parables?

Thekla said:

But where is the evidence that the elements are false ?

The understanding of going to Abraham's bosom after death were current.

Was that understanding of the afterlife wrong ? Where is the correction if it was ?

Click to expand...

I thought I explained that already. The language used to describe that situation is very figurative. You can't assume that because some Jews may have believed in an afterlife, that all Jews did. Nor can you assume that because the scripture doesn't record a correction, that one never was given.

As I stated earlier, a parable is used to help teach a lesson. How it's structured is not what matters, but what it teaches.

IvinViljoen said:

]Parables = lies? Interesting. Referring to the one statement or all parables?

Click to expand...

All of them contained factual elements that would be commonly familiar (for ex., you can use the 'elements' for gardening advice because they are true).

Thekla said:

Again, which of the parables Christ use have false elements ?

Many, for example, use agricultural facts (seed and soil quality, pruning, etc.). Which of these elements are actually false ?

Click to expand...

It's not about it being false. Again, you're missing the forest for the trees. How Christ decided to deliver the message is inconsequential. It's the meat of the message that matters.

Look at the context of that verse ...

Click to expand...

I did. There is no contextual evidence available that would make the statement mean anything other then what it means. Trying to say that Solomon was "depressed" doesn't make his words any less true. David also testifies that the dead are unconscious. He pleaded with God to spare his life so that he could continue to praise Him, for the dead do not praise God.

Why would He use false spiritual teachings/elements as a form of instruction; could the point be made no other way ?

Isn't Christ also the Truth ? How then could He use a spiritual lie to teach a spiritual truth ?

Click to expand...

It was an example. I use those types of metaphors all the time. It helps to drive home the point of the truth. It's what we call meeting someone at their own level. You have no idea how many people who may have spoke to Christ about what happens when you die, after hearing that parable, and been set straight. And honestly, that's nothing you need to worry about. Why? Because the answer has already been given - "The dead know not anything". Knowing this we can properly analyze the parable and see that Christ is putting value on the scripture and holding to what it teaches, not the state of the dead or any such thing.