Truth on Predestination

Chuck70 · Mar 20, 2013

Before computers, I sought a way to understand the Bible apart from possible bias and even lies of religious teachers. Cross-references are picked by humans with a bias. Topical Bibles are by humans with a bias. I had come to doubt things I had been taught in church. I bought a KJV without cross references or notes. I then got the Young's Analytical Concordance. Along with an English dictionary and a separate thesaurus, I was ready to study. A short example of how this works I chose the word "predestinate" as one of my early studies. I had been taught that the word "predestinate" is only used 4 times in Scripture and only in regard to a believer's destiny. Well, if that is not a lie it is a half-truth based on the KJV English wording. Using the Young's, I find "predestinate" listed with the Greek word it translates. It is given thus:

"predestinate, to-- To mark off first or beforehand... proorizo" Then it gives the 4 occurrences of the word in the KJV: "Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:5; 11"

So far so good for the half-truth I'd been taught. But, with the Young's I can go to the Greek listing in the back to see "proorizo" and find it is also translated as: "determine before" and "ordain", which are in Acts 4:28; 1 Cor. 2:7. So, we have the word translated in the KJV in three different ways. I go to the Merriam-Webster dictionary online and find the following about these 3 terms:

Predetermine: "foreordain, predestine, to determine beforehand" .... ah, they are synonymous terms. Taking the two(2) additional times the Greek "proorizo" is found in the NT, I find it in these passages also:

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28, KJV)

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1Cor 2:6-8, KJV)

WOW! Acts 4:27-28 blows up the idea that God has not predestined sin because the biggest sin in history was "determined before", or predestined by God. Then in 1 Cor. 2:6-8 we see this sinful event was "ordained before" to save his people. Therefore, I learned that I had been taught a lie in order to hide the biblical doctrine of predestination in fulness. Now, in theological textbooks, "predestination" is used of the doctrine of election, but I am not interested in a special theological use, I am interested in what the Bible states before man starts his organizing it to suit his systems. I was then able to start studying words such as "faith", "believe", "election" by this technique. I take the Bible seriously and I am forced to be a free grace believer by such study.

Chuck

rcetc · Mar 24, 2013

Chuck70 said:
Before computers, I sought a way to understand the Bible apart from possible bias and even lies of religious teachers. Cross-references are picked by humans with a bias. Topical Bibles are by humans with a bias. I had come to doubt things I had been taught in church. I bought a KJV without cross references or notes. I then got the Young's Analytical Concordance. Along with an English dictionary and a separate thesaurus, I was ready to study. A short example of how this works I chose the word "predestinate" as one of my early studies. I had been taught that the word "predestinate" is only used 4 times in Scripture and only in regard to a believer's destiny. Well, if that is not a lie it is a half-truth based on the KJV English wording. Using the Young's, I find "predestinate" listed with the Greek word it translates. It is given thus:

"predestinate, to-- To mark off first or beforehand... proorizo" Then it gives the 4 occurrences of the word in the KJV: "Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:5; 11"

So far so good for the half-truth I'd been taught. But, with the Young's I can go to the Greek listing in the back to see "proorizo" and find it is also translated as: "determine before" and "ordain", which are in Acts 4:28; 1 Cor. 2:7. So, we have the word translated in the KJV in three different ways. I go to the Merriam-Webster dictionary online and find the following about these 3 terms:

Predetermine: "foreordain, predestine, to determine beforehand" .... ah, they are synonymous terms. Taking the two(2) additional times the Greek "proorizo" is found in the NT, I find it in these passages also:

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28, KJV)

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1Cor 2:6-8, KJV)

WOW! Acts 4:27-28 blows up the idea that God has not predestined sin because the biggest sin in history was "determined before", or predestined by God. Then in 1 Cor. 2:6-8 we see this sinful event was "ordained before" to save his people. Therefore, I learned that I had been taught a lie in order to hide the biblical doctrine of predestination in fulness. Now, in theological textbooks, "predestination" is used of the doctrine of election, but I am not interested in a special theological use, I am interested in what the Bible states before man starts his organizing it to suit his systems. I was then able to start studying words such as "faith", "believe", "election" by this technique. I take the Bible seriously and I am forced to be a free grace believer by such study.

Chuck

Acts 4 does not say that God predestined sin only that he predestined the circumstances of his Son's life and actions. Also the question of when God predestined anything is not answered here. In the NASB predestined is used six times (Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29, 30; 1 Cor. 2:7 and Eph. 1:5, 11) Within these Scriptures it is stated that God predestined salvation issues and his wisdom, which in my studies is his holy and sinless attitude, a part of his nature that produces the attitudes of the fruit of the spirit.

The Scripture states in Ps. 5:4: For Thou art not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with Thee. (NASB) To be the author of sin would be a violation of this doctrine as well as the doctrine that states that God is GOOD! Jesus taught the following concept in Matthew 12:25-30:

25 And knowing their thoughts He said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself shall not stand. 26 "And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? 27 "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. 28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

(NASB)

By the same token, if God was the author of sin then he would be working on dividing his own kingdom.

I can appropriate you enthusiasm to know the truth. But by coming to conclusions by the act of your own reasoning without comparing all the ramification it may have on other major doctrines is not wise. To say that God is the author of sin is heresy in any theological circle, even if you disdain systematic theology. Your methodology of study would fit into dogmatic theology well and may be a worthwhile pursuit for you. I am a biblicist and study all systems of theology because within all systems there is truth to be found. And I believe the pursuit of the truth is the goal, is it not?

98cwitr · Mar 24, 2013

I think that since God is both the Creator of all things and Omniscient then it is foolish to say that He didn't predestine sin.

1 Peter 2 addresses this fact directly

1 Peter 2:8
and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

As far as division of His Kingdom goes...does God not separate the sheep from the goats?

Chuck70 · Mar 24, 2013

rcetc said:
Acts 4 does not say that God predestined sin only that he predestined the circumstances of his Son's life and actions. Also the question of when God predestined anything is not answered here.

Maybe you need to use the Bible in Basic English so you can comprehend it:

For, truly, in this town, against your holy servant, Jesus, who was marked out by you as Christ, Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, came together, To do that which had been fixed before by your hand and your purpose. (Ac 4:27-28 BBE)

Maybe the British translation will be more clear for you:

They did indeed make common cause in this very city against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed as Messiah. Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and with the peoples of Israel to do all the things which, under your hand and by your decree, were foreordained. (Acts 4:27-28, REB)

To predestine, foreordain or determine before does not make God the author of sin. The actions of those who crucified the Lord were predestined, but they were acted out by those sinners.

Chuck

Laurabenson · Mar 24, 2013

We've been written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world.

rcetc · Mar 24, 2013

98cwitr said:
I think that since God is both the Creator of all things and Omniscient then it is foolish to say that He didn't predestine sin.

1 Peter 2 addresses this fact directly

1 Peter 2:8
and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

As far as division of His Kingdom goes...does God not separate the sheep from the goats?

1 Peter 2:8 is a direct reference to the Pharisees and Jews disbelief that Jesus Christ was the prophetic messiah. The phrase “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense” is quoted from the Old Testament, demonstrating a prophetic utterance that Jesus is the Christ. Yes, a predestined issue but not of sin.

As I have stated in my book: “B[FONT=Garamond, serif]iblical truth has no contradictions. For biblical truth to be true, it must agree with all other biblical truth.” If you believe a verse is teaching one thing and then there are other verses saying something else, then you must spend time to harmonize the whole truth before you can come to a dogmatic statement in theology. I do not believe you have come to that point in your study and should continue your work. If you would like more information on the nature of God and further insight that may help you in your pursuit of the truth, my book speaks to many of these issues in a very biblical manner with a Scripture Index of 8 pages in support of all the discussions within that work.[/FONT]

[FONT=Garamond, serif]Keep pursuing the word and the Holy Spirit will give you the truth in the end.[/FONT]

98cwitr · Mar 24, 2013

is disobedience and disbelief not sin? Which is, and which is not predestined? How do you reconcile the omniscience of God with Him also being the Creator of all things in regards to sin?

Chuck70 · Mar 24, 2013

98cwitr said:
is disobedience and disbelief not sin? Which is, and which is not predestined? How do you reconcile the omniscience of God with Him also being the Creator of all things in regards to sin?

You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish. He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake. Through him you have come to trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are set on God. (1Pe 1:18-21 NRSV)

You are right, 98cwitr, Christ's death was destined before the foundation of the world, but the sin he came to wash away with his blood was not predestined? Mmmm Admittedly we are using "predestine" in a broad sense, not the sense of "election" as found in a theological textbook. God's decree even includes the sparrow that falls and the hairs on our head. How do you escape that God has predestined it all. Yet, that does not mean he does not work through the will, choices and actions of men. Predestination is NOT fatalism.

Chuck

98cwitr · Mar 24, 2013

I totally agree with you...except for your last sentence. Predestination is fatalism, or at least determinism. Sorry, I was responding to rcetc's post.

Alithis · Mar 24, 2013

many are called but few are chosen -- who is chosen ? those that answer the call

we are all predestined for gods glory -- but only those who accept the invite will enjoy it
------------

Hammster · Mar 25, 2013

michaelmynameIs said:
many are called but few are chosen -- who is chosen ? those that answer the call

we are all predestined for gods glory -- but only those who accept the invite will enjoy it
------------

Those that were chosen were those who were gathered. Read the whole parable. Nobody answered the invitation.

phoenixdem · Mar 25, 2013

michaelmynameIs said:
many are called but few are chosen -- who is chosen ? those that answer the call

we are all predestined for gods glory -- but only those who accept the invite will enjoy it
------------

What are you talking about?

crimsonleaf · Mar 25, 2013

Subscribing.

Keachian · Mar 25, 2013

This is news?

LaSpino3 · Mar 25, 2013

Chuck you had better examine the words again. Ordained, premeditate, Greek is, promeletao, Strong's #4304. It means to premeditate, common usage, infered. Luke 21:14, "Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to mediate before what ye shall answer."

Compare Mark 13:11, "Take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate." with 1 Cor.2:7, God ordained (premeditated on) before the world unto our glory. This has to do with the saved.

The words Predestinate, and Predestinated: Strongs, #4309. Greek it is proorizo. It means that God set bounds before. In N.T. its used as a metaphore, to predetermine, to predestinate, spoken of the eternal counsels and decrees of God. Common usage, inferred, imperative, meaning commanding, authoritative.

Acts 4:28, "For to do whatsoever thy (God's) counsel (purposed) before to be done."

Rom.8:29-30, "For whom He (God) did foreknow, He also did predestinate (decreed) to be conformed to the image of his Son that He (Jesus) might be the first-born, among many brethren. Moreover whom He (God) did predestinate, them he also called, and whom He called, them he also justified."

1 Cor.2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery; even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory." The gospel was hid from those who are lost 2 Cor.4:3. "Whom the god (the devil) of this world has blinded." So the gospel is brought forward and revealed to God's children, but remains a mystery to the lost. So compare ordained with 1 Cor.2:9, means "prepared for them that love him"

Eph.1:5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself."

Nothing at all to do with God creating, being the sponsor of evil, sin, etc.

Definations came from my dictionary, www.seekfirstwisdom.comhttp://www.seekfirstwisdom.com

Phil LaSpino

Chuck70 · Mar 25, 2013

LaSpino3 said:
Chuck you had better examine the words again. Ordained, premeditate, Greek is, promeletao, Strong's #4304. It means to premeditate, common usage, infered. Luke 21:14, "Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to mediate before what ye shall answer."

Nothing at all to do with God creating, being the sponsor of evil, sin, etc.

Definations came from my dictionary, www.seekfirstwisdom.com

Phil LaSpino

Hi Phil, I do not know why you went into "premeditate" since my post was solely on the Greek proorizo and the 6 times it is used. I do not know the online dictionary you used. I will give the meaning from The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Frederick William Danker, copyright 2009

It gives the meaning for proorizo as "determine beforehand" in all 6 places. I quote Acts 4:27, 28 here:

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Ac 4:27-28 AV)

The bold is translating the Greek proorizo and that was a huge sin that was determined before by God. Here is a sampling of versions and how they translate proorizo in this passage: ASV "foreordained"; BBE "fixed before"; RSV/NRSV "predestined"; Williams "predetermined".

To predestine, God is not the author or efficient cause of sin. He predetermined it to happen, but to happen by the will and choice of man.

Chuck

Bella Vita · Mar 25, 2013

Sin was part of the plan from the beginning. We don't like to face it because it makes us uncomfortable. But Sin brings glory to God and we wouldn't be able to appreciate the sacrifice that was made for us if we didn't have two paths to choose from.

Romans is clear that there are vessels created for destruction. Take Judas for example the guy didn't have a chance he had to give up Jesus or he wouldn't have gone to the cross. God creates people knowing they will not choose him and knowing they will be sent to hell. But it still doesn't hurt him any less to send them there. We don't want to think that God would do such a thing but just because it makes us uncomfortable doesn't make it any less true. Jesus was not a plan B he was not a back up sin and the fall was part of the plan from the beginning. And we can not believe God knows all and sees all without believing this it just doesn't work.

I am a Calvinist and 100% believe in predestination.

Chuck70 · Mar 25, 2013

Bella Vita said:
Sin was part of the plan from the beginning. We don't like to face it because it makes us uncomfortable. But Sin brings glory to God and we wouldn't be able to appreciate the sacrifice that was made for us if we didn't have two paths to choose from.

Romans is clear that there are vessels created for destruction. Take Judas for example the guy didn't have a chance he had to give up Jesus or he wouldn't have gone to the cross. God creates people knowing they will not choose him and knowing they will be sent to hell. But it still doesn't hurt him any less to send them there. We don't want to think that God would do such a thing but just because it makes us uncomfortable doesn't make it any less true. Jesus was not a plan B he was not a back up sin and the fall was part of the plan from the beginning. And we can not believe God knows all and sees all without believing this it just doesn't work.

I am a Calvinist and 100% believe in predestination.

Be careful, you are sounding almost like a fatalist instead of a predestinarian. No one forced Judas to betray our Lord, he did it of his own 'free agency', which is different from a 'free will'. I know we can't get our mind around it, but it was predetermined and certain, but it was worked through the acts of Judas.
Chuck

LaSpino3 · Mar 26, 2013

Chuck thanks for your reply. You asked, " I do not know the online dictionary you used. I will give the meaning from The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Frederick William Danker, copyright 2009"

Phil replies, "I have been working on the Greek N.T., Greek to English for 12 years now. Like you, I do all my own research, no downloading. My info. comes from a library of over 500 books I am fortunate enough to own, and most predate 1850.

I have absolute faith in this work. You can check it out against Thayer's, Copyright 1977, Greek and English Lexicon by Edward Robinson 1836, Critical studies, 1827. etc.

We may be saying the same thing, not sure??? For example, Scriptures read,

"Rev.13:8, "The Lamb (Jesus) slain from the foundation of the world."

What does a verse like this tell us about God knowing all things well before they happen? Not that He said, "I command Judas to betray my Son!" No! it means he knew beforehand the heart of this man before he was born.

It was known by God that Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews that they were going to kill His Son. Verses from Acts 4:25-26, quoted from Ps.2:1. The only difference in Acts 4 from Ps.2 is, now the names and the people are given who would rage, and imagine vain things against the Christ.

My thoughts,

Phil LaSpino

Alithis · Mar 26, 2013

phoenixdem said:
What are you talking about?

oh i was just oversimplifying the topic - folks seem to get a bit entrenched in it .

Truth on Predestination

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