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That doesn't seem fair, though. It says God only called those he foreknew. Why not call everyone? (Stick to the text)
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Gods "chosen"
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That doesn't seem fair, though. It says God only called those he foreknew. Why not call everyone? (Stick to the text)
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What if it can be demonstrated that God does indeed choose who He wants? What would be more important: proclaiming the truth, or attempting to protect people's feelings?
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Jesus talks about people will knock but he will say go away, I did not know you. That is where I get the idea he chose who he knows will follow him. He knew you and I would be having this conversation long before you or I were born. He knows who will follow him, those who follow him he knows, those who do not follow him he does not know. It does not say he singled people out, it means he chose who would follow him
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I agree that it would be the truth, but to say he chooses without us having a choice if we can love and follow him is calling him a lier because he said he wants no one to perish. If he wants no one to perish but chose to force people to love him and force others to hate him then he is controdicting himself
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So much for sticking with the text
In Romans 8, it says He calls those who He predestines to be conformed to His image, and those He foreknew.
Two things to note: one, it doesn't say that He foreknew their actions. That has to be read into the text.
Two, if He doesn't call everyone, how can that be fair, even if He knows they will reject Him?
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God doesn't force anyone to love Him.
Okay, now that's out of the way. And my guess is that you are taking the "God doesn't desire any to perish" out of context.
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So much for sticking with the text
In Romans 8, it says He calls those who He predestines to be conformed to His image, and those He foreknew.
Two things to note: one, it doesn't say that He foreknew their actions. That has to be read into the text.
Two, if He doesn't call everyone, how can that be fair, even if He knows they will reject Him?
So God doesn't know all? He doesn't know who would follow him and who would not? Besides, it does not say he doesn't pick them by there actions. It doesn't say why he picks them so by you assuming it is because he randomly hand picked people for no reason other than eni meni miny mo is also taking it out of text
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Where did I say that God doesn't know all? And I am not assuming anything. I know God does what He wants according to His own will.
But let me ask this: how does God know who will follow Him, in your theology?
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No, it is because God is all knowing. for example if you are driving down the road and come to a three way, no matter what way you choose to turn God knows the outcome of all three ways. If you turn left there might be a speeding drunk that you would hit. If you turn right you might end up stopping for coffee and meeting someone new. If you go straight ahead you might see an old friend. Whatever way you choose to go God knows what the outcome would be no matter what you choose. I'm not good at examples as you can see, but I'm just making a point that that is why at times we feel the Holy Spirit direct us one way or another, it is up to us if we choose to listen or not.
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So then He doesn't need to call everyone, but only the ones He knows will believe?
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That is what I believe at this time, but many times in the past I have believed things and God showed me I was wrong, I won't really know until I study it. But I do know how loving and wonderful God is, I know all the scriptures in the bible point against the theory that he randomly picked people to love him and basically blackens the hearts of everyone else so they are not able to truly love him or follow him even if they want to and try to.
Sorry, I took your post wrong again, I'm multi-tasking and it is throwing me off. He does call everyone. We choose to follow or not.
Sorry, I took your post wrong again, I'm multi-tasking and it is throwing me off. He does call everyone. We choose to follow or not.
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Hi BeeWrangler... If I may inject a thought here.. I am not fond of the TULIP term "unconditional election" because I believe God has a purpose for everything He does so it is conditioned upon something in the realm of His plan and decree. I prefer "unmerited election" where we do not merit His choice of us, or earn it by foreseen faith. I find the idea of God election on knowing in advance who will believe to fail in light of Jesus' own words:
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23, KJV)
Certainly Jesus foresaw, but he did not foreknow with love those persons.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29, KJV)
It is whom, not what, he did foreknow or foresee. Of course, faith is a gift of God that not all men possess, so to speak of election based on foreseen faith fails in that regard also.
Chuck
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Really something I need to study, but sounds much better than for God to draw bingo numbers on people theory
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I don't see where it says anything about God picking a few people and forcing them to love him and forcing the rest to hate him... what part of Romans 8 am I reading wrong?
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And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 NASB)
Who is called?
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(foreknow) anticipate: realize beforehand
I still see nothing where it says he randomly picked names out of a gum ball machine to be elect. It gives no reason as to why he picked who. I'm not saying I believe 100% he did not choose his elect, but there is a reason he picked who he picked and at this moment I see the word "foreknown" as being that he knew who would truly love him. I don't know for sure, don't know if I ever will know until I meet him in heaven... but I do not believe there was no reason based on his love and infinite wisdom.
Really it does not even say he chose his elect without giving everyone a chance to love him, unless I am missing something.
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John 6:43-51
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
John 6:61-65
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Does that not say those who do not believe, and it has always been known who would not believe? And therefore they will not be drawn to come to Jesus?I'm not trying to twist scripture, I see it as saying God knew who would not believe so he did not draw them to Jesus
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
John 6:61-65
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Does that not say those who do not believe, and it has always been known who would not believe? And therefore they will not be drawn to come to Jesus?I'm not trying to twist scripture, I see it as saying God knew who would not believe so he did not draw them to Jesus
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BeeWrangler, add this passage to your reasoning and think about who are the sheep:
"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:25-27, KJV)
I believe you are reversing the order of belief and predestination:
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48, KJV)
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