Doctrines of Jesus or [RC] 'Mary', one or the other, but not both, take your pick...

ViaCrucis · Mar 15, 2013

Stryder06 said:
Cannibalism is a sin. The bible says that eating blood is a sin. Longevity does not truth make. If it's actually flesh and actually blood, than it is actually sin. It's "apperance" is irrelevant. I can dress my daughter up in jeans, a baseball cap, and a jersey but that won't her a boy despite her appearance.

And yet Christ still said "this is My body" and "this is My blood". We can tip toe all day long to try and find ways in which Jesus meant something other than what He said, but at the end of the day He said what He said. Further, St. Paul plainly says that by eating the bread and drinking the wine we have koinonia in the body and blood of Christ; he even goes on to talk about how those who in ancient Israel partook of the sacrificial offerings were joined to the sacrifice. When we eat the bread and drink the wine, we are partaking in Christ's very death and resurrection. It is in our very union with Christ--our koinonia with Him, in His very death and very resurrection--in the bread and the wine that we are partaking, receiving, sharing in, having communion with the Crucified and Risen Christ and proclaiming Him. It is in this that we do anamnesis, draw the past reality of what Christ has done into the present. Anamnesis, rememberance, of Christ's passion isn't simple mental recall, it is a declaration of what the Lord Jesus has done once and for all in our present moment. It is a present reality.

The bread and the wine of the Eucharist is a living, real encounter with the Crucified Victim of Mt. Calvary. It is not simply a nice churchly ritual to help make us feel spiritual or religious; it is to have a real encounter, to have fellowship, to have intimacy with the One whose body was broken for us and whose blood was shed for us. When we eat the bread and drink the wine it is the very Reality of the Incarnation made present in us and for us. Christ in us, and we in Christ: one Body and its Head. As such it is a living testament of that glorious future Feast when God makes all things new, when He joins all things together under Himself, and God is all in all.

-CryptoLutheran

Stryder06 · Mar 15, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
And yet Christ still said "this is My body" and "this is My blood". We can tip toe all day long to try and find ways in which Jesus meant something other than what He said, but at the end of the day He said what He said. Further, St. Paul plainly says that by eating the bread and drinking the wine we have koinonia in the body and blood of Christ; he even goes on to talk about how those who in ancient Israel partook of the sacrificial offerings were joined to the sacrifice. When we eat the bread and drink the wine, we are partaking in Christ's very death and resurrection. It is in our very union with Christ--our koinonia with Him, in His very death and very resurrection--in the bread and the wine that we are partaking, receiving, sharing in, having communion with the Crucified and Risen Christ and proclaiming Him. It is in this that we do anamnesis, draw the past reality of what Christ has done into the present. Anamnesis, rememberance, of Christ's passion isn't simple mental recall, it is a declaration of what the Lord Jesus has done once and for all in our present moment. It is a present reality.

The bread and the wine of the Eucharist is a living, real encounter with the Crucified Victim of Mt. Calvary. It is not simply a nice churchly ritual to help make us feel spiritual or religious; it is to have a real encounter, to have fellowship, to have intimacy with the One whose body was broken for us and whose blood was shed for us. When we eat the bread and drink the wine it is the very Reality of the Incarnation made present in us and for us. Christ in us, and we in Christ: one Body and its Head. As such it is a living testament of that glorious future Feast when God makes all things new, when He joins all things together under Himself, and God is all in all.

-CryptoLutheran

Of all the things that Jesus said that weren't meant to be taken literally, it never ceases to amaze at how this is.

We partake in the death and resurrection of Christ through baptism. Christ said that the communion supper was to be a reminder, not a participatory act.

And again, it would be cannibalism, which is a sin. God doesn't make exceptions for sin. Drinking blood and eating human flesh is a pagan practice that has no place in the church. Why would you think that God would suddenly change His mind on that issue? It's symbolic, not literal.

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 15, 2013

JOHN 6, which is directly related to the Last Supper passages on "This is my..."

I would suggest reading the whole context, and not only for Protestants but also for Catholics:

Now let us look at John 6 in what it says concerning this topic of "flesh" and "blood":

John Chapter 6,

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. John 6:63

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. John 6:27

What is this "meat which endureth"? It is the "words" that Jesus speaks to us. That is eternal life. What must we do about His "words", his teachings? We must "believe on Him" [Jesus] whom the Father has sent.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

However, many of the crowd simply did not want to believe in/on Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, being God, the I AM [especially as the only way] without some great sign, even though a little earlier they had all just been fed and been full physically from so very little bread and fish. They wanted a way in salvation apart from Jesus, they wanted a way of works, not of faith which works.

They did not want to understand that "He came down from Heaven" and said, "Is not this...the son of Joseph?" They did not want to take Jesus on faith.

Jesus pointed out that even those who had been fed from miraculous manna from heaven, all had still died [and are still dead to this day, awaiting their resurrection "at the last day"; John 6:40], but those who believed on Him, the True manna, He says would not permanantly die in the 2nd death, but would sleep in death until their resurrection and would live forever, neither thirst, nor hunger.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. John 6:35

I am that bread of life. John 6:48

This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. John 6:58

Not as their fathers who ate flakes, wafers of manna, but truly Christ Jesus is the living "Way", "Truth" and "Life". We must believe on Him unto salvation, and follow in His steps by His grace.

Jesus was speaking of Himself as the Messiah and Saviour [not an unbiblical "transubstantiation" as the Roman doctrine teaches, or anything even closely resembling it], notice the context, what has Jesus been talking about, Himself was the Messiah, the very Son of God, to believe upon and the example to follow:

This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. John 6:50

Jesus human "Flesh" and "Blood" did not come down from heaven, but He and His doctrine, His Way have. Notice how Jesus Himself lives, "by the Father" [even as he says, "...I have meat to eat that ye know not of." John 4:32; and what was this "meat"? "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." John 4:32], and so likewise we, also, by Him by heeding His words, following His example and keeping/doing His Commandments [Ten Commandments]:

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:57

That is eats of HIS WORD...

Jesus makes it abundantly clear that His words are Spirit:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. John 6:63

Peter, himself, acknowledges that Jesus has the Words of Life because that He is the Messiah:

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. John 6:68

Jesus makes known who did not have eternal life and why they did not, it was because they belived not on Him, as the Christ, even though they had seen Him and the works He performed:

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. John 6:35

And the entirety of the Chapter of John 6 is summed up in this one verse:

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69

That is the whole point of John 6, declaring Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God, from personal experience and personal acknowledgment, and to follow Him.

The Roman Catholic theology of "transubstantiation" is nowhere in the text, and neither any other thing even remotely related. Rather it is focusing on who is "the Christ, the Son of the living God" and who "believe[d]" "on Him" and who did not.

It is Belief in Christ Jesus as the "Son of the living God", the Messiah, the Christ, God manifest in the likeness of the human sinful flesh, the sent of the Father, the Saviour, etc that is the focus.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

We are to "eat" and "drink" His words, for they are spirit and are life.

The flesh profits nothing.

Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

If ye love me, Keep My Commandments... John 14:15 and Exodus 20:6 from which JESUS not only directly quoted, but originally Gave.

"...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing. Deuteronomy 14:3

God forbade the eating of Blood [which we will look at in a moment], and it would not matter if it literally was, or you merely thought [believed, faithed] you were eating it under the "elements".

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 17, 2013

Before looking further at the "fruit of the vine" at the Last Supper, and those texts, and what type of content was in the cup of blessing, being the unfermented/pure juice/"blood" of the Grape and vine and not the fermented/alcoholic "the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps", let us consider the issue of the Blood, first:

Blood, was Never to be eaten:

But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Genesis 9:4

Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning. Exodus 23:18

Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. Exodus 34:25

The Blood of the Sacrifice, never to be eaten upon any occasion, was also never to be offered with any leaven/fermentation at all upon the Passover days - no alcoho for it is a drink of corruption, of the table of Belial. In fact, the passover, all leaven [representing sin] was to be completely removed from the vicinity [Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land. Exodus 12:19]. It was a typeof the perfect sinlessness of Christ Jesus, and to be the "pure blood of the grape" [Deuteronomy 32:24], even the "fruit of the vine". Who will dare to presume to equate His righteous blood with a drink of Belial?

[It shall be] a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood. Leviticus 3:17

And he shall put [some] of the blood upon the horns of the altar which [is] before the LORD, that [is] in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which [is at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. Leviticus 4:18

"And the priest shall ... shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar." Leviticus 4:30

And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar: Leviticus 4:34

And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it [is] a sin offering. Leviticus 5:9

And no sin offering, whereof [any] of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile [withal] in the holy [place], shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire. Leviticus 6:30

In many cases, if the blood was not sprinkled upon some part of the Sanctuary furniture, horns of the altar, before the veil, etc, generally all the blood was to be poured out upon the ground, and if some was sprinkled, all the remainder was poured out upon the ground, and in some other cases burned upon the altar.

Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, [whether it be] of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings. Leviticus 7:26

Whatsoever soul [it be] that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people. Leviticus 7:27

And he slew [it]; and Moses took the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it. Leviticus 8:15

And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar: Leviticus 9:9

And whatsoever man [there be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. Leviticus 17:10

Notice that text, and take it to heart. The LORD will set His face against any one that eateth the blood, and cut him off.

For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11

Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. Leviticus 17:12

And whatsoever man [there be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. Leviticus 17:13

For [it is] the life of all flesh; the blood of it [is] for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh [is] the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. Leviticus 17:14

Notice that text and take it to heart. If any deliberately eat the blood of any manner of flesh, it is sin, literally, or by belief/faith, it is the same, for the conscience is then involved, and God's Word says that person shall be "cut off", and it means "cut off" of Eternal Life, as the type pointed to the anti-type.

Ye shall not eat [any thing] with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times. Leviticus 19:26

And [one] shall burn the heifer in his sight; her skin, and her flesh, and her blood, with her dung, shall he burn: Numbers 19:5

Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water. Deuteronomy 12:16

The blood was to be poured upon the earth, never taken into the human digestive system.

Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood [is] the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh. Deuteronomy 12:23

Even, more striking is this verse, which says that the blood, wherein is the life thereof, was never to be eaten with the flesh.

Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it upon the earth as water. Deuteronomy 12:24

Thou shalt not eat it; that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, when thou shalt do [that which is] right in the sight of the LORD. Deuteronomy 12:25

And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh. Deuteronomy 12:27

Only thou shalt not eat the blood thereof; thou shalt pour it upon the ground as water. Deuteronomy 15:23

A case of sin:

And the people flew upon the spoil, and took sheep, and oxen, and calves, and slew [them] on the ground: and the people did eat [them] with the blood. 1 Samuel 14:32

Then they told Saul, saying, Behold, the people sin against the LORD, in that they eat with the blood. And he said, Ye have transgressed: roll a great stone unto me this day. 1 Samuel 14:33

And Saul said, Disperse yourselves among the people, and say unto them, Bring me hither every man his ox, and every man his sheep, and slay [them] here, and eat; and sin not against the LORD in eating with the blood. And all the people brought every man his ox with him that night, and slew [them] there. 1 Samuel 14:34

For "dogs" lick the blood [1 Kings 21:19, 22:38], and outside of New Jerusalem are "dogs" [Revelation 22:15].

Notice, it is sin to eat with the blood.

And king Ahaz commanded Urijah the priest, saying, Upon the great altar burn the morning burnt offering, and the evening meat offering, and the king's burnt sacrifice, and his meat offering, with the burnt offering of all the people of the land, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings; and sprinkle upon it all the blood of the burnt offering, and all the blood of the sacrifice: and the brasen altar shall be for me to enquire [by]. 2 Kings 16:15

[King] David, acknowledges this in a type of language [like a metaphor] used of men which sacrificed their life, their blood, for a drink [cup] of water:

And he said, Be it far from me, O LORD, that I should do this: [is not this] the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men. 2 Samuel 23:7

And said, My God forbid it me, that I should do this thing: shall I drink the blood of these men that have put their lives in jeopardy? for with [the jeopardy of] their lives they brought it. Therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mightiest. 1 Chronicles 11:19

Will God drink the blood?

Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Psalms 50:13

Who is to be drunken with the blood [metaphor]? The wicked.

And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isaiah 49:26

What do the wicked do?

For her blood is in the midst of her; she set it upon the top of a rock; she poured it not upon the ground, to cover it with dust; Ezekiel 24:7

All the wicked of the end shall be a feast for the birds, where the eagles are gathered, there the carcase[Matthew 24:28; Luke 17:37], a judment upon the wicked:

And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ezekiel 39:17

Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. Ezekiel 39:18

And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Ezekiel 39:19

And I will take away his blood out of his mouth, and his abominations from between his teeth: but he that remaineth, even he, [shall be] for our God, and he shall be as a governor in Judah, and Ekron as a Jebusite. Zechariah 9:4

Do any think that this is merely an OT thing for Jews? No, they are written for us Christians [Romans 15:4; 1 Corinthians 10:11]. Even in the NT, see the council of Jersualem, Acts 15.

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. Acts 15:20

That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. Acts 15:29

"As touching the Gentiles which believe ... that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." Acts 21:25

This, even in the context of that which was sacrificed. No Christians are to eat of those things. Ever.

There is a "woman" in prophecy which does drink "blood", and she is "drunken" from it, and causes the world also to become so:

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

The Hebrew word for “eat” in these passages is “'akal” “אכל” and it means “eat, consume, devour, destroy by eating” (Strong's).

Jesus' blood poured out upon the ground:

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:44

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. John 19:34

"... he hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28

That precious "blood of the Lamb".

Rev Randy · Mar 17, 2013

Looks like a good place to unsubscribe

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 17, 2013

Rev Randy said:
Looks like a good place to unsubscribe

Please do not turn away the shoulder, and stop the ears. This involves much:

"Is there a dual use for the word "wine" in common langauge and is there such a use in the scriptures?", that the answer is "Yes."

"Wine – noun

... [3]. the juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits or plants, used as a beverage, sauce, etc. ..." [Wine, definition] - Wine | Define Wine at Dictionary.com

"Wine - noun

... something that invigorates or intoxicates ..." [Wine, definition] - Wine - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

And for additional purposes...

See that word, "intoxicate"? What does the word "intoxicate" mean?

Word Definition:

"Intoxicate - transitive verb

1 poison

2 a : to excite or stupefy by alcohol or a drug especially to the point where physical and mental control is markedly diminished b : to excite or elate to the point of enthusiasm or frenzy" [Intoxicate, definition] - Intoxicate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

What does Roman Theologians say about its "wine"? It is "intoxicating":

"The "Transubstantiation" of the "Eucharist":

" ... when the priest consecrates bread and wine, so that they become Christ's body and Christ's blood. ...

... But in these two instances, the bread and wine of the Eucharist, the mind is not left to itself. By the revelation of Christ it knows that the substance has been changed, in the one case into the substance of his body, in the other into the substance of his blood. ...

... The accidents remain in their totality-for example, that which was wine and is now Christ's blood still has the smell of wine, the intoxicating power of wine. ...

... All we shall say here is that his body is wholly present ... " [EWTN online; Frank J. Sheed; Taken from Theology for Beginners © 1981 by Frank J. Sheed, Chapter 18.] - Transubstantiation

That Roman theology just equated Jesus' precious blood to corruption, fermentation, that which poisons and is intoxicating.

Let us also ask a very basic question pertaining to these, "Can a person who is “intoxicated” [“poisons”] by any amount of such 'kind' of “wine” which is “alcoholic” bring “glory to God” in their drinking?" No.

What does the alcohol do to a persons health?

It impairs brain activity, slows down reactionary time, attacks kidneys, liver, bloodstream, causing cancer, disease, dizziness, loose morality, causing one to forget, relaxes and/or reduces self-control [thus giving up of the will], etc and is one of the major leading causes of death, abuse and misery in the world. Even the smallest amount begins to break down the immune system of the human body [multiple medical research reports can be cited for these facts if needed, though it should be plainly obvious [but for a brief, http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/yourlif....s_N.htm ], also ask those of SADD and MADD].

However, let us also consider further history of the word "wine":

Aristotle ["...(384 BC – 322 BC)[1] was a Greek philosopher and polymath, a student of Plato and teacher of Alexander the Great." [Wikipedia - Aristotle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ]] said,"...Sweet wine does give off fumes, for it contains fat and behaves like oil. It does not solidify under the influence of cold and it is apt to burn. Really it is not wine at all in spite of its name: for it does not taste like wine and consequently does not inebriate as ordinary wine does. ...

...(Wine is a liquid which raises a difficulty: for it is both liable to evaporation and it also thickens; for instance new wine does. The reason is that the word 'wine' is ambiguous and different 'wines' behave in different ways." - Meteorlogica Book IV [English] - The Internet Classics Archive | Meteorology by Aristotle

Merriam-Websters 1828 Dictionary: "MUST, n. [L. mustum; Heb. to ferment.]; New wine; wine pressed from the grape but not fermented." - http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resour....1828=on

And for many more, consider reading [or checking the references page of] [The Bible Wine Question. The Answer To The 'Unanswerable': Or An Exposure Of The Fallacies Of Three Irish Advocates (Professors Watts, Wallace And Murphy) And Eleven Syrian Witnesses; By Frederick Richard Lees] - http://books.google.com/books?i....f=false

We should seriously ask ourselves, "Does the alcohol bring life or death?"

Alcohol is merely a legalized [group morality] "intoxicant", another name for 'drug'. For those who advocate that a little or even 'moderate' [who defines that? and for whom?] use is ok, should also perhaps consider the "health benefits" and results of other such "intoxicants"/"drugs": caffeine [ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012....55.html ], nicotine/tobacco [ Nicotine poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ], cannabis [ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health....ar.html ], etc - all destructive.

This should be sufficient in demonstrating the first half of the "Yes.", but now let us consider in greater detail the second half of the "Yes." answer.

What was the "fruit of the vine" than that Jesus spoke of at the Passover? It was the pure juice of the grape, unfermented.

Now, let us turn briefly for a moment to consider the other "nature" of the "wine" that is verily the "fruit of the vine", the unfermented pure juice of the grape, symbolic of the very Pure and Undefiled Blood and Doctrine of Christ Jesus.

Jesus makes a parallel of His New Doctrines [the New “wine”] to those clinging to the Older and corrupted [leavened] Doctrines of the Pharisees [Luke 5:39], which were not based upon scripture, but rather on the traditions and teachings of men which were breaking the commandments of God.

Anything [like the grape], once taken from the "vine" [which is where the word "wine" comes from - simply meaning "of the vine"].

The "New Wine" [that which was just taken from harvest or vine] would last several days, possibly weeks, months [depending upon preservation method available, which they did have historically] and eventually begin to ferment on its own, so beginning to cause expansion.

This is why it could not be placed into "old bottles", for this process would then burst asunder those older bottles [see Job 32:19; Joshua 9:13], so it had to be placed into "new bottles" [wherein there was strength and room for stretching.] Jesus mentions this very thing [Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37-38].

The "New Wine" was indeed pure juice of the grape [unfermented, unleavened], and as scripture has said of it:

Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and [one] saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing [is] in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. Isaiah 65:8

This is how the Bible uses the term "New Wine" [see also Isaiah 16:10, Proverbs 3:10], and further by saying that which is "found in the cluster", pure grape juice, meant for "joy" and "gladness"[Psalms 104:15; Ecclesiastes 9:7, etc].

So, that which is "found in the cluster" [Isaiah 65:8], pure grape juice, is meant for joy and gladness [Zechariah 10:7], such as a wedding [John 2:1-11, 4:46] [see wedding Cana] or feast [Psalms 104:15; Ecclesiastes 9:7, etc].

Thus it is, that this "wine" was the New "wine", the Juice of Harvest, joy and blessing, that Jesus drank of and made and taught, the very "fruit of the vine":

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. Matthew 26:29Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. Mark 14:25For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. Luke 22:18

It is obvious from scripture that there are two 'kinds' of "wine", but we are going to look even further and make sure. There is one of Blessing and another of cursing, one of life and joy, and one of death and sorrow.

We know that the "fruit of the vine", which is poured into the "cup of blessing" [Deuteronomy 7:13; Isaiah 65:8] which was at the passover meal, was to be unleavened, unfermented:

Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. Exodus 12:15

Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land. Exodus 12:19

Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters. Exodus 13:7

Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. Exodus 34:25

Paul says, “Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.”[1 Corinthians 10:21], and so it is made clear that those who are in Christ Jesus will not be joined to any but He, and His table is pure, “...the pure table before the LORD.” [Leviticus 24:6;p], “...the pure table...”[2 Chronicles 13:11;p], and in the cup, purity, being, “...the cup of salvation...”[Psalms 116:13;p].

In fact, Christ Jesus Himself, has taken the longest Nazarite Vow, for He stated that He would no longer drink of the "fruit of the vine" until He is able to drink with us New in the Kingdom to Come.

Eseven · Mar 17, 2013

lol, y'all crack me up.

Chrystal-J · Mar 17, 2013

Stryder06 said:
Of all the things that Jesus said that weren't meant to be taken literally, it never ceases to amaze at how this is.

We partake in the death and resurrection of Christ through baptism. Christ said that the communion supper was to be a reminder, not a participatory act.

And again, it would be cannibalism, which is a sin. God doesn't make exceptions for sin. Drinking blood and eating human flesh is a pagan practice that has no place in the church. Why would you think that God would suddenly change His mind on that issue? It's symbolic, not literal.

Sacrificing stuff is also a pagan practice, if you're gonna go there. How do you know what to take literally and what to leave up to your own interpretation?

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 18, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
...John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

Let us look at that text referred to first:

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

And right away, right from the very first, we see the Roman Doctrine of "immortal soul theology" vanish, as it does not say man was 'given a soul', or 'bequeathed a soul' or even 'has a soul', but rather that through the 2 things, "dust of the ground" and God "breath[ing] into his nostrils the breath of life", man "became" a "living soul". Remove either the two components or both and man temporarily ceases to be a "living soul", and "returns unto the dust" from which we were made [Roman Catholics say it every Ash Wednesday; “Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return.” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Ash Wednesday] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ash Wednesday ] and taken. Then the breath which God breathed, returns unto Him, for it was never ours, but His. Many, many texts on this.

John 20:22, is declaring that Jesus is God, and also references:

The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: Isaiah 42:5

Compare also to:

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; Acts 17:25

See more on John 20:22-23 to come.

Root of Jesse said:
John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear. Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men."

Nonsense. The text says no such thing as confessing ones "sins" to any man, for Roman theology likes to add and subtract to and from the word of God. Additionally Matthew 9:8 does not say that men were given power to forgive sins, the very context reveals the power to Heal, which Christ Jesus did give [Matthew 10:8; Luke 9:2,10; etc] to some [1 Corinthians 12:9,30], for only Jesus [God] has the power to forgive sins. What Jesus did give to all was the commission to preach the Gospel, and to preach the remission of sins [which btw is not the blotting out of sins, which GOD alone may do] in th name of CHrist Jesus and gave to some the power to heal, as is found in Luke 9:6,11, etc

And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where. Luke 9:6

And the people, when they knew [it], followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing. Luke 9:11

Where did Peter forgive this man His sins?

For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed. Acts 4:22

He did not, but rather preached of the forgiveness of sins through Christ Jesus already sent. For we have no power inherent in any of us to do anything:

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. Acts 4:10

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Acts 4:11

Which "stone", which "Rock" was rejected? Christ Jesus or peter? It is Christ Jesus, even again by Simon Peter's admission, even as it is in his epistle.Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

How were "sins" to be forgiven? Through "preaching" of the "forgiveness" of "sins" by Christ Jesus in the Everlasting Gospel through His blood. For it is He [Jesus] which forgives sins, not men, not Peter, not Paul, not Mary, and no person calling themselves 'pope'.

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 18, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?

The verse demonstrated no such thing. They do not have power to forgive sins. See above and more to come. And there is no such thing as Apostolic Succession in scripture - more to come on this, as it will need a separate response.

Root of Jesse said:
2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

Again, this is "begging the question", in the assumption of a Roman theological practice to start with and then with the text seek to prove the point. Such ignores everything Paul wrote on the subject. Paul is saying that He agrees with their [the local church's] decisions about accepting the person which was in the past in sin, but now no longer, back into the fold, once that person had turned away from the practice of adultery. The local congregation, at first had issues in doing this, and had not done anything in rebuking the man in his open sin, and some did not even mourn over it. Paul had written to them previously about this situation [1 Corinthians 5; 2 Corinthians 2:4,9]. The local church censured the man, and he saw the folly of His ways, being led of the Holy Spirit to repent, and so the church accepted him back, and so Paul also likewise also accepts it, even before the face of Christ Jesus, the true Judge of All, knowing that there should be oneness and unity of purpose among the body of Christ Jesus, who is the Head, and so Paul agrees to and submits to their decision and judgment of the matter, and still though cautions them about making sure to show love and why they had to remove the person at the first, so that there is no misunderstanding, and that they did not do it out of spite, but for the persons own good. This text reveals that the whole church may make such decisions, as in the Lord Jesus Christ, even as Paul in the 1 Corinthians letter said that they should have known. BTW, if Rome uses this text to say that Paul forgives this person his sins, then they must also admit that the whole Church body at Corinth, and yeah the whole Church body of Christ Jesus also has the same power:

["Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours..." 1 Corinthians 1:1 and "...unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all thesaints which are in all Achaia" 2 Corinthians 2:1

"To whom ye [Church body at Corinth, and all else in Christ Jesus] forgive any thing..." and "I [Paul] also" 2 Corinthians 2:10], will Rome admit to this?

Of course not, for their theology has to have a two class system, as it is the same system as the pagan Roman Mithraism [whose highest level was "Pater" or "Father"], etc had, one for the insider initiate [priestly class] and one for the outer goyim, catechumen, lay persons [everyone else].

Others also: - Blue Letter Bible - Commentaries - Matthew Henry - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible

Root of Jesse said:
Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

See the coming response, for Christ Jesus gives to the whole church the "authority" to make decisions, as in the Lord.

The Central Authority is Jesus Christ, and His Word -

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalms 138:2

Protestantism is fracture because they rely upon creeds and traditions of men, which stem from Rome, for she is peophesied as the very Mother of the Harlots. it is through drinking of Rome's doctrines of immortal soul theology, sunday sacredness, etc that the world is in such a mess.

Even the "church fathers" which Rome and the Eastern Orthodox laud and praise and raise to levels of beatified and saint and other such things, even building their tombs in their cathedrals [mousoleums of dead mens bones, and all uncleanness], fight and argue amongst one another, and refute one another and dig at one another, and as for 'popes', many have done horrendous things, and some were called Anti-popes, and others were called heretics [Honorious], and others murdered for their vices. We shall come to this history a bit later, and see what the See's of Rome are really like, in that they even bought and sold "the Chair". Their money perish with them, to think that they could buy any gift of God.

Return to the Word of God.

Root of Jesse said:
Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself. ...

He also gave the same power to the "70" [Luke 10:19]. Also see the gifts God gave of the same - Mark 16:17 [see also Acts 11:17; Romans 11:29, 12:6; 1 Corinthians 7:7 and 12; Ephesians 4:8; 1 Peter 4:10; etc], and even other Jews had the power to cast out devils, a gift given of God [Matthew 12:27; Luke 111:19].

The word "Bishop" is not used here in this text, nor context. It is in reference to the "70" that were also chosen by Jesus and sent out for that work to be done. All may and should preach Christ Jesus - see 1 Thessalonians 4:8, for anyone which rejects the preaching of the Gospel, rejects not man, but God, for it was sent of Him.

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 18, 2013

Please let us [together and purposefully] look closer at the texts you mentioned [John 20:22-23; Matthew 16:19, 18:18] and also consider their immediate context and other passages with shed more light upon the ever-important words in them.

In Matthew 16, let us ask, Who is JESUS speaking to?

The scripture reveals that after speaking to the Pharisees also with the Sadducees [vs. 1-4], JESUS then left them and departed [vs. 4] and went to the other side with HIS disciples [them; vs. 5] and then begins to speak to them all [the disciples; vs. 6].

JESUS immediately warns the disciples against the corrupt doctrines, practices, teachings and lifestyles which is/was the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees [vs. 6]. The disciples misinterpret what JESUS then said about the leaven, and they think HE is speaking about bread [vs. 7], and so JESUS corrects their understanding by relating to them of the miracles that they had witnessed in the feeding of the multitudes [vs. 8-11], and that HE was not speaking to them of physical bread [vs. 11]. The disciples finally see that the leaven that HE spoke about was referencing, in Truth, the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees [vs. 12].

These texts are extremely important to understand [for they specifically warn us to beware of leaven of Pharisees and Sadducees [who are the religious teachers, instructors and 'doctors' of the law] and false doctrines] as they set the stage and context for what JESUS is next to say to the disciples [vs. 13-20]. We must be extra careful here.

JESUS now then comes into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi with the disciples in tow [vs. 13] where HE [JESUS] asked his disciples a question [Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?]. The question was not merely addressed to Simon Barjona, for they all answer [they said; vs. 14], giving various responses [John the Baptist Elias Jeremias one of the prophets], and so, again, a further question was asked to them [vs. 15] [But whom say ye that I am?]. Notice the contrasted questions to them all [basically], Who do they/others say I am? and Who do you [disciples] say I am?

It is at this point that the narrative says that Peter answers with, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [vs. 16] This is the sought after answer to the directed question to all of the Disciples that JESUS was looking for to be voiced and acknowledged. The entire conversation and questioning at this point is about Who is the Son of Man?, which answer is CHRIST JESUS [the ROCK, CHIEF and PRECIOUS CORNERSTONE, A STONE, A LIVING STONE, A TRIED STONE, A STONE OF STUMBLING, HEAD OF THE CORNER, SURE FOUNDATION; 'petra'; the very word used in Romans 9:33; 1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 2:8, etc; and is never used of Peter anywhere in scripture] and not about Simon [Peter; 'petros'] Barjona at all, but rather that He was Jesus the Christ; vs. 20.

CHRIST JESUS acknowledges the statement that, HE [JESUS] is the CHRIST, and that it was not from Simon Peter Barjona [flesh and blood; [humanity] vs. 17], though blessed to received such, but rather it was revealed from GOD the FATHER [MY FATHER; vs. 17] and therefore Peter cannot claim credit for the answer.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 16:17

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18

JESUS [addressing Peter, unto thee] continuing HIS statement from vs 17 [and I say also] then contrasts the two things, HE [JESUS the CHRIST] compared with Simon [Peter] Barjona [the Apostle/Disciple], in essence saying to Peter, You are 'peter', a small stone. but it is upon the statement, that I AM, the CHRIST, the ROCK, which I will build MY Church. The Church was never to be Simon Peters, nor was he to ever be its HEAD, nor to stand in the place of the HEAD, for CHRIST JESUS is the HEAD [1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 1:22, 4:15; Colossians 1:18, 2:10,19], and it is HIS Church...

...if, as Roman theology dictates, that CHRIST JESUS here sets Peter above all other Apostles and Disciples, why then would they further argue which of them should be accounted the greatest [Luke 22:24] at the Table of the LORD's Passover? [see also other places that this was done [Mark 9:34; Luke 9:46]] But so that we know for sure, JESUS clarified it again [Matthew 23:10-11] for us.

JESUS, Peter, Paul, Moses, psalmists and prophets acknowledge who the ROCK is, and upon whom the Church is built; which is CHRIST JESUS alone and not any other person, not Peter, not any Apostle, nor disciple nor any other:

Christ Jesus is the "petra", the massive foundation stone.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-15/#post62619438

Each clearly state that CHRIST JESUS is the ROCK. Since it is HE whom we love and want to follow after, should we not do so, acknowledging these words, and follow HIM? Should we not accept and proclaim these words as Truth?, for even Peter does so in his letters, for HE was a follower of CHRIST. Since our doctrine is to come from scripture, what then does it say to us?

JESUS then continues with:

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:19

...but was it merely to Peter that this was said? Scripture reveals that it was said to all of the Disciples:

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:18

...with the original contention being again who was the greatest among them:

At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Matthew 18:1

...and JESUS does not pick any of the Apostles/Disciples, but yet HE sets a little child among them [vs. 2] and continues to say whosoever...:

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:4

...yet then what did HE mean by the keys and also the 'binding and loosing' and how was it to be done?

The keys are the words that CHRIST JESUS had given and spoken to them concerning the Kingdom of Heaven [Matthew 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10], and that HE is the CHRIST:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7730193-33/#post62637979

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 18, 2013

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. John 6:63

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. John 6:68

And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. John 17:8

...for the key of knowledge that had been given to the Jews as a Nation were not being used properly, for the Pharisees, Scribes, Sadducees and lawyers were shutting up the Kingdom of Heaven by their leaven, their prejudices, their traditions of man/elders [Matthew 15:2-3,6; Mark 3:5,8-9,13; Colossians 2:8; Galatians 1:14; 1 Peter 1:18] and hoarding the Light and WORD to themselves without being the light to the gentiles and other nations:

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Matthew 23:13

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. Luke 11:52

...as for the 'binding and loosing' it too was given to every member of the Church, by the preaching of the WORD:

Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Acts 2:37

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

...let us seriously consider that Peter does not say that he himself remitted anyone's sins [for only GOD can forgive sins; Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:7,10; Luke 5:21,24; Acts 7:60; 1 John 1:9], but that it was CHRIST JESUS [the Son of Man] who does so [Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:10; Luke 5:24], and that he [Peter] was just speaking those words which CHRIST had given to them to speak by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT.

...and we must also consider the immediate context of Matthew 18:18 wherein the statement about 'binding and loosing' was made:

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Matthew 18:15

But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Matthew 18:16

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Matthew 18:18

Paul understands these words:

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1 Corinthians 5:11

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1 Corinthians 5:12

But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. 1 Corinthians 5:13

...as did James:

Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16

The word used is 'faults' and not 'sins'. James uses a very specific word for 'sin' = hamartia ἁμαρτία and for 'faults' he uses = paraptōma παράπτωμα.

For only GOD can forgive sins; Matthew 9:6; Mark 2:7,10; Luke 5:21,24; Acts 7:60; 1 John 1:9 but JESUS shows that while we sin against him, we have fault against others: Matthew 6:12,14; 18:35; Mark 11:26; Luke 6:37; 11:4; 17:3-4 and shows the difference in 2 Corinthians 2:7,10; Ephesians 4:32 and Psalms 51:4 is very important, along with Genesis 39:9; Deuteronomy 20:18; 1 Samuel 12:23.

...and so finally in considering John 20:22-23 we must again look at Acts 2:37-38, but also:

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Acts 10:43

Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:25

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: Acts 13:38

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:39

And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2 Corinthians 5:18

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 2:19

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. James 5:15

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47

Neither Peter, nor the Apostles, nor Disciples, nor anyone else but GOD has power to forgive sins, but CHRIST JESUS gave unto the whole Church body the power to Preach of the remission of sins found only in CHRIST JESUS [by the Grace and Love of GOD] through HIS atoning sacrifice and mediatorial HIGH PRIESTHOOD through Confessing of sins unto GOD [which the HOLY SPIRIT will convict us of; John 16:8], Repentance unto GOD, Baptism, a Keeping of HIS Commandments, etc.

This is the Gospel, that by Faith in the Good News being preached, that the whole world may find forgiveness of their sins in the sacrificial blood and death of JESUS, and that HE even now in the Heavenly Sanctuary is ministering in the Most Holy Place for us.

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest. Psalms 51:4

Do you hear the HOLY SPIRIT speaking to you from the WORD as it is written? for HE would not speak of HIMSELF, but whatsoever HE should hear... Should we go to a confessional booth, and speaking behind a curtain, veil or wall [or even worse, face to face] to speak of our utter failures to GOD and secret sins against the ALMIGHTY to the whims of mere mortal men, who would set standards of penance [a working of works to be justified], who themselves also come to be defiled and have need of CHRIST JESUS, who is HOLY and without sin, without fault and infinitely compassionate and tender and loving, already knowing your sins and thoughts, who through... HIS flesh [Hebrews 10:20] rid us of the veil between us and GOD [Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38], HE being the only mediator between us and GOD [1 Timothy 2:5; Galatians 3:20] and who only asks for you to confess to HIM and repent and to have faith and believe in HIS perfect cleansing? JESUS calls for us to be like little children...

But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Luke 16:18 [see also Matthew 11:18, 19:14; Mark 10:14]

In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. John 7:37

Aren't you tired of sinning, of falling, of failing the one person whom you love the most and then having to seek out and go to a confessional, to another mere man who himself also falls, can he truly do anything for us unless he lead us to the Truth as it is written, can he know of the hurt in our heart, the agony of our soul and mind, does he have the eyes to see the filthy rags with which we are sometimes clothed, can he see our nakedness or shame, can he then clothe us in righteousness, can he set us free? Instead, CHRIST JESUS does not fall, does not tire, does not weary, and it is HE that can save you FROM your sins and can make you clean and whole [Matthew 1:21], only HE can lift you up and wash away our sins, and clothe us with HIS righteousness. GO NOW to HIM on your knees, and open your heart to GOD in sincere confession and prayer and supplication, HE will HEAR YOU! HE has promised to forgive you all your sins, if you would but ask HIM, if you would but accept HIM! Today if ye will hear HIS voice...NOW is the hour of salvation...do not wait, do not halt, seek HIM while HE may be found....lest it be too late! Listen to the HOLY SPIRIT...[Hebrews 12:17,25-29]

CHRIST JESUS says:

Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 18, 2013

[1.] How did the first Apostles come to be Apostles?

[2.] How did the replacement of Judas come about?

[3.] Did the Apostles directly choose and vote for the succession of Apostles to themselves or was there some other means and criteria, and if so what?

1. Christ Jesus chose.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve ..."John 6:70;p

"... I know whom I have chosen..." John 13:18;p

2. The Apostle to replace Judas, was to be chosen from them that had been with them the whole time from John's Baptism until the resurrection and been witness to those things, a follower of Christ Jesus, a believer and witness to the truth.

Then in accordance with the scriptures by David in the Psalms, signified already by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16), then by prayer (prayer and Bible study!), asking for God's decision (not their will or choice but His to be done!), then after two are singled out of the 120 as best as humanly possible, the Lord then makes the choice through the "lot" and the gift of Apostleship is given to Matthias by the Holy Spirit [not by the Apostles], then also again signified by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit due to the event that took place in Heaven.

"These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication..."Acts 1:14;p

Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. Acts 1:16

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Acts 1:20

Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Acts 1:21

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:22

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. Acts 1:23

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Acts 1:24

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:26

And why was this done? It has to do with Christ Jesus Highpriestly Ministry in Heaven, and before it could be begun.

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 18, 2013

3.Paul [not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles; 2 Corinthians 2:11, 12:11] was also chosen directly as well on the Road to Damascus, by Jesus Christ, and shown many things in Vision by Jesus, but also was sent to be instructed further by the very Church.

Apsotleship in the Church is set by God as a gift from God, not of men, and gifts given by the Holy Spirit, dividing as He will, not as men will or vote or choose.

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Romans 1:1

Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,1 Corinthians 1:1

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, ..."2 Corinthians 1:1

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles,..."1 Corinthians 12:28;p

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead Galatians 1:1

(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles; ) Galatians 2:8

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, ..." Ephesians 1:1

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, ..."Colossians 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, [which is] our hope; 1 Timothy 1:1

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God...", 2 Timothy 1:1

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Corinthians 12:11

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1 Corinthans 12:4

By scripture we see that truly it is GOD who gives some Apostles (not men)

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Ephesians 3:7

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Ephesians 4:11

Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute: Luke 11:49

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.1 Corinthians 12:28

Consider Jesus [the Apostle, "one who is sent", sent of the Father to do His will]:

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostleand High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Hebrews 3:1

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. Hebrews 5:5

Yet Rome does what they will, choosing whom they will, and all manner of jostling for position, making themselves highly exalted.

CHRIST JESUS said it will not be like those who "excercise lordship":

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. Luke 22:25

But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. Luke 22:26

Whom did Christ Jesus set before them, as they bickered over who was the greatest? A little child was set among them:

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, Matthew 18:2

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:4

But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.[His Holiness Pope Leo XIII, Sapientiae Christianae, On Christians as Citizens, Encyclical letter, January 10th, 1890; Section 22] - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Sapientiae Christianae (1890) and also see - SAPIENTIAE CHRISTIANAE

Where is the humilty of Christ in him for one who says that he is an Apostle of His?

One cannot buy the gift of the Holy Spirit with any amount:

"Pope Alexander VI ... That he obtained the papacy through simony was the general belief (Pastor, loc. cit.) and is not improbable (Raynaldus, Ann. eccl. ad an. 1492, n. 26), though it would be difficult to prove it juridically, at any rate, as the law then stood the election was valid. ..."[Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "A"; "Pope Alexander VI"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pope Alexander VI also see - http://www.csus.edu/indiv/c/craftg/Hist127/ALEXANDER VI.pdf also see - Pope Alexander VI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Acts 8:20

No such thing, Biblically, as Apostolic Succession, except as it is found in "the man of sin".

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 18, 2013

More Marian Worship:

Do you ask me, is Mary willing to assist you? Does she really take an interest in your welfare? Or is she so much absorbed by the fruition of God as to be indifferent to our miseries? Can a woman forget her infant so as not to have pity on the fruit of her womb? (Isaiah 49:15), Even so Mary will not forget us [Faith of our Fathers, By Cardinal James Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, page 225, 1893 ed.;] - The Faith of Our Fathers: Being a Plain Exposition and Vindication of the ... - James Gibbons - Google Books

Did you just catch that? James "Cardinal" Gibbons just quoted Isaiah 49:15, a Messianic prophecy about Jesus!!!, and yet he cites it in reference to "Mary"!!!!!! And even comments on it as such "Even so Mary will not forget us". He even does not quote the entire passage, even as the devil did to Jesus [Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:11]. This is blasphemy, and everywhere in such writings is Jesus robbed of His glory.

Isaiah actually says.: Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. (Isaiah 49:15)]

Jesus will never forget us. The true and Biblical Mary is deceased, awaiting her resurrection.

See that this "Mary", this "angel of light" that appears as an "apparition", seeks to replace Jesus in all things - even upon the Cross:

mary-0026-jesus-on-the-cross002c-church-of-the-mother-of-god-of-polish-martyrs002c-warsaw.jpeg

Maryolatry

Maryolatry

"...Mary...continues in heaven her maternal role with regard to Christ's members, cooperating with the birth and growth of divine life in the souls of the redeemed. [The Credo of the People of God, Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on June 30, 1968, Catholic Encyclopedia] - CATHOLIC LIBRARY: The Credo of the People of God (1968)

Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard. [Ineffabilis Deus, Immaculate Conception; Reposted in the Catholic Encyclopedia; http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm]

Here is a twisting of Genesis 3:15, from the Jesuit Douay Rheims:

Hence, just as Christ, the Mediator between God and man, assumed human nature, blotted the handwriting of the decree that stood against us, and fastened it triumphantly to the cross, so the most holy Virgin, united with him by a most intimate and indissoluble bond, was, with him and through him, eternally at enmity with the evil serpent, and most completely triumphed over him, and thus crushed his head with her immaculate foot. [Quo circa sicut Christus Dei hominumque mediator, humana assumpta natura, delens quod adversus nos erat chirographum decretia, illud cruci triumphator affixit; sic Sanctissima Virgo, Arctissimo et indissolubili vinculo cum eo conjuncta, una cum illo et per illum, sempiternas contra venenosum serpentem inimicitias exercens, ac de ipso plenissime triumphans, illus caput immaculato pede contrivit. Reposted in the Catholic Encyclopedia; Ineffabilis Deus; http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm]

Adaephon · Mar 18, 2013

Perhaps you'd care to explain the problem CONCISELY? As in, in a single paragraph and not some endless, windy, multipost rambling dissertation?

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 18, 2013

Adaephon said:
Perhaps you'd care to explain the problem CONCISELY? As in, in a single paragraph and not some endless, windy, multipost rambling dissertation?

Read Revelation 14:6-12, and then come to understand it.

Adaephon · Mar 18, 2013

III Angeli Nuntius said:
Read Revelation 14:6-12, and then come to understand it.

Ok, cool story bro.

Stryder06 · Mar 18, 2013

Chrystal-J said:
Sacrificing stuff is also a pagan practice, if you're gonna go there. How do you know what to take literally and what to leave up to your own interpretation?

Actually sacrificing things isn't a pagan practice. The first sacrifice was made in eden when God killed a few animals to provide coverings for Adam and Eve. The next recorded sacrifice was from Abel. This practice was taken and polluted by the pagans.

III Angeli Nuntius · Mar 19, 2013

Stryder said:
Prayer to the saints...

Root of Jesse said:
...Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.

We are to indeed pray for others, while we live, not in any manner in death, see response and texts below for reasons why this is so from the Bible; and while living now, we pray "for" others, we do not pray "to" anyone other than God. See examples:

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. Romans 10:1

And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. Luke 6:12

And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the LORD thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the LORD, and the king's hand was restored him again, and became as [it was] before. 1 Kings 13:6

For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee. 2 Samuel 1:27

Hear my prayer, O God; give ear to the words of my mouth. Psalms 54:2

All of those, and many more examples, are all prayer unto God, and some prayer "for" another unto God. All of the examples are of the living, and none of the dead.

None may ask the dead anything, for they are dead. God warns very strongly in scripture that no "living" should seek "unto the dead" [Isaiah 8:19], for it is "necromancy", and "sorcery" [Deuteronomy 18:11]. For they which answer in return are devils masquerading as the dead [1 Samuel 28]. If they [devils] are believed upon, rather than God, then that which is sown, is reaped.

&c.

Root of Jesse said:
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

Where in John 2, does Jesus "invite" Mary to do anything? This is again addition to the text. Roman theology does a lot of this.

Additionally, Jesus stance toward His mother, is quite clear:

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. John 2:4

Jesus, even from the age of 12, made this abundantly clear:

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? Luke 2:49

Jesus mission was more important that Mary.

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? Matthew 12:48

Where were his family? Not in the room with Him, see therefore the context on why they were outside seeking Him, it did not have to do with faith, but unbelief.

Besides missing the whole context of the wine and wedding, representing His blood and covenant, for His own wedding to tHis own Bride, along with the Water pots, etc, Roman Catholic theology again distorts the events to exalt Mary into the position of a co-mediator with Jesus. Again, this is blasphemy.

Now, as to this, "they have no wine", will you then raise the disciples to co-mediator in the same function? For which is greater the "wine" or the "bread" in Roman Theology? It is verily "the bread"...

Send them away, that they may go into the country round about, and into the villages, and buy themselves bread: for they have nothing to eat. Mark 6:36

In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples [unto him], and saith unto them, Mark 8:1

And, yet again, Mary, as are all the apostles, were then alive that she and they may ask, but now they are all dead, unable to do anything.

Root of Jesse said:
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

We may indeed "pray for" others while we are yet alive, but not while dead, for scripture is clear, see below and more to come, but never pray "to" anyone other than the True and Living God.

Notice, no one went to Mary for anything, and none asked anything of her, nor implored her to ask Jesus, nor prayed unto her to beg of Him. Roman Catholic theology adds it to the text when it is nowhere found therein. She, of her ownself, asked, with her own human motives, and as such that Jesus knew why she had asked, hoping that she might set Him upon the path, and yet Jesus clearly says "Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come."

She was not to interfere with what the Father had already given Jesus to do, nor with the timing of the events and clock upon which Jesus was, since it had already all been given in Prophecy [see Daniel, etc]. Jesus made that clear.

Also, What hour? The hour of His betrayal into the hands of men and unto death. The very hour He spake of the whole time, for Jesus had already been Baptised [John 1:29-34].

Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come. John 7:30

These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come. John 8:20

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. John 16:32

Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Matthew 26:45

And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. Mark 14:35

And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Mark 14:41

When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. Luke 22:53

And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. John 12:23

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. John 12:27

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. John 13:1

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. John 16:32

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: John 17:1

Notice, even the Biblical Mary says to "do whatever [Jesus] tells [us] to do", and not what Roman theology tells us to do. Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6], and yet Roman theology says not the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God, but another common working day, one of their own choosing, etc.

Yet the Roman 'Mary', that 'apparition', a mockery of the true, speaks contrary even to those words which the real and Biblical Mary then spake while alive. The Roman 'apparitional' 'Mary', that 'angel of light' [2 Corinthians 11:14], says to listen to 'her voice'... to be documented later.

Root of Jesse said:
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other

Also, where is it ever said that we should not ask others to pray for us?...

The last example is perfectly fine, but none of those being asked to pray "for" another are "dead", but rather alive. Also none are asking any to pray "to" anyone other than God.

All of these texts cited to prove "prayer to" the "saints" which are supposed, by Roman Catholic immortal soul theology, to be in heaven [an impossibility], ignore, what Stryder actually stated which was in regards to "Prayer to the saints...", not prayer of the saints or prayer for the saints. Therefore, all of the above examples fail to demonstrate a single text from scripture, for "prayer to the saints". Secondly it ignores the entirety of the scriptures upon the matter of those which have died, from Genesis to Revelation, in that "the dead know not anything" [Ecclesiastes 9:5], and "the dead praise not the Lord" and "go down into silence" [Psalms 115:17] and "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished" [Ecclesiastes 9:10] and they "dwell in darkness" [Psalms 143:3] they being in "sleep" and not "awake" [Job 14:12; and many many others.] for the dead's "breath goeth forth, returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" [Psalms 146:4], for when they die, they "wasteth away" [Job 14:10], and sees "corruption" [Acts 13:36], and even as it is wrtitten, "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth [it] not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth [it] not of them." [Job 14:21], for no man hath any power to retain that breath which is God's, once He calls that which is His, and not ours, back unto Himself [Ecclesiastes 8:8].

[FONT=&quot]There the wicked cease [from] troubling; and there the weary be at rest. Job 3:17

[There] the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. Job 3:18

The small and great are there; and the servant [is] free from his master. Job 3:19

The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no [more]: thine eyes [are] upon me, and I [am] not. Job 7:8

[As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no [more]. Job 7:9

He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more. Job 7:10

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12[/FONT]

&c.

PS. Jesus is the perfect model of Faith, not Mary [see examples throughout scripture where she doubted]. Roman theology is ever attempting to replace Jesus perfect example with their own "mary's", in faith, in obedience, in sinlessness, etc and in all things. In some things they even seek to supercede Christ Jesus, for upon the Roman 'Rosary' is 10 prayers to Mary for every 1 unto God, upon the most part. The reason is, that satan, that 'angel of light', seeks to usurp God in all things and it is he which appears, masquerading as an apparitional...

Doctrines of Jesus or [RC] 'Mary', one or the other, but not both, take your pick...

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