How come the NIV is so different from the KJV?

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BluhdoftheLamb

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That is understandable. Without judgement, I clearly understand that a spider is free to roam in a palace undetectable for it's size and maneuverability and ability to hide itself. How does that compare to a lizard? A lizard is like a rat and is easily detectable.

Solomon observes the positives of creatures and creeping things and encourages each to use them. How is being a lizard, perhaps the size of a rat, an advantage in a palace, easily caught?

He teaches of the glory of the lion, how it is king of its environment. King of beasts. Unaffraid of any creature.

He teaches how the locust abilty to understand is truely a gift of God.

He teaches how a spider can be present and yet undetected.

How can a lizard be of any use in a palace?

A spider isn't of use in a Palace any more than a lizard is. Either would be killed by an astute Palace guard, or perhaps by a cat. And "lizard" may refer to a salamander, newt, or other quite small critter far smaller than a big NYC rat.

So the meanings are equivalent. Btw these teachings are for US to learn their characteristics, not for the animals themselves. (And lions are actually afraid of other critters, and not nearly the unchallenged top of the food chain we have been led to believe; but I digress)
 
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astein

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There is no difference. Both are small. Neither has wealth. Either can be killed readily, yet it manages to ... live in a palace.

So in this example there's no significant difference, the same point is made by both. This is one of the best uses of multiple different versions on a tough passage. It will point out to us when we're focusing on the wrong thing, and help us to get the gist.

Now, why aren't the exact English texts good enough? Because Scripture wasn't written in English, any translation has its difficulties and will lose something, and human language is generally not the message God wants to convey to us in the first place.

His words are Spirit, and they are life! Accept no substitutes :)


I understand your response friend. :)

If they are no different though, how come the change in interpretation?
If lions are specifically choosen as the "king of the jungle", then how come reject accurate interpretation of a lizard and spider?
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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Haha if you want to see a blatant difference, check out Luke 16:1-10. I still can't figure that one out.


KJV:

"And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses. So he called every one of his lord's debtors [unto him], and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore. And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much."

Now NIV:

"Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. So he called him in and asked him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.' "The manager said to himself, 'What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg— I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.'

"So he called in each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' " 'Nine hundred gallons [fn] of olive oil,' he replied. "The manager told him, 'Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.' "Then he asked the second, 'And how much do you owe?' " 'A thousand bushels [fn] of wheat,' he replied. "He told him, 'Take your bill and make it eight hundred.' "The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much."

I'm not seeing a significant difference? Sure, the numbers are wildly different, as is the % discount. I have no idea which is more accurate to the original manuscripts they were working with, and maybe both are correct due to being translated from different manuscripts? Either way we have the same point: this guy was a crook, but didn't hurt himself except by not doing a good job in the first place.

Either way, eternal dwellings or eternal habitations, I never really got the point of those words? Is He telling us to use our own wealth to store up treasures in heaven? I don't see how that can fit. Surely he's not suggesting that we can buy our way up higher in satan's kingdom, to secure a more tolerable condemnation?

I think He's telling us not to waste what He's given us, which is this gift of Salvation.
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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I understand your response friend. :)

If they are no different though, how come the change in interpretation?
If lions are specifically choosen as the "king of the jungle", then how come reject accurate interpretation of a lizard and spider?

Well, constantly working on improving can't be a bad thing. We have people on this website who make their own versions, from the original languages. Martin Luther himself said he wished he learned Hebrew
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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So we learn Hebrew, how does that help us?

Well I'm not doing it so obviously I don't think it'd help so much as to be worth it :D But the point is then we could read the original version, and not lose so much due to translation. A LOT of these things simply don't translate. Think of a newspaper headline saying falcons beat seahawks, being read by someone 1 or 2 thousand years from now. Likewise, understanding Jewish culture is huge to knowing what they're talking about. The Hebrew jokes in Matthew indicate it was written in Hebrew, to Jews.

All of this points to the validity of versions which are translated on a thought-for-thought basis, rather than word-for-word. Each method has its strengths and weaknesses. It's good to pick a favorite from each column and compare. Biblegateway.com has a large selection of modern translations including ESV and NASB (word for word) and GW, NLT and MSG (thought-for-thought)

All of these are held to be better than both KJV and NIV. I still like the poetry of the KJV, and MSG is terrible for the Gospels, but great with Paul
 
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astein

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Well I'm not doing it so obviously I don't think it'd help so much as to be worth it :D But the point is then we could read the original version, and not lose so much due to translation. A LOT of these things simply don't translate. Think of a newspaper headline saying falcons beat seahawks, being read by someone 1 or 2 thousand years from now. Likewise, understanding Jewish culture is huge to knowing what they're talking about. The Hebrew jokes in Matthew indicate it was written in Hebrew, to Jews.

All of this points to the validity of versions which are translated on a thought-for-thought basis, rather than word-for-word. Each method has its strengths and weaknesses. It's good to pick a favorite from each column and compare. Biblegateway.com has a large selection of modern translations including ESV and NASB (word for word) and GW, NLT and MSG (thought-for-thought)

All of these are held to be better than both KJV and NIV. I still like the poetry of the KJV, and MSG is terrible for the Gospels, but great with Paul

I hear your response friend and can understand much of it based on your faith. I'm thankful for that. I just don't understand the degrees of seperation. How come a translation is needed from the original? Is there an original transcript presented from the writters themselves, presented?
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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I hear your response friend and can understand much of it based on your faith. I'm thankful for that. I just don't understand the degrees of seperation. How come a translation is needed from the original? Is there an original transcript presented from the writters themselves, presented?

Well this really gets to the heart of the issue. As I understand it, if we were to see what translators actually work with, it's fragments of this and that, none of which are entirely legible, and all of which are compared to later copies. This is what makes the Dead Sea Scrolls so exciting, but none of the NT is contained there.

This is also what makes the ECF's so valuable, because while they don't usually go into anything deep, they do recite specific passages of Scripture, and when it agrees with our own Bible it gives us confidence that we do indeed have the basic message intact.

I honestly do believe God has preserved His word to us, and that those things in dispute really are besides the point. Even so, to "see the point," is a matter of Spiritual quickening.
 
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astein

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Well this really gets to the heart of the issue. As I understand it, if we were to see what translators actually work with, it's fragments of this and that, none of which are entirely legible, and all of which are compared to later copies. This is what makes the Dead Sea Scrolls so exciting, but none of the NT is contained there.

This is also what makes the ECF's so valuable, because while they don't usually go into anything deep, they do recite specific passages of Scripture, and when it agrees with our own Bible it gives us confidence that we do indeed have the basic message intact.

I honestly do believe God has preserved His word to us, and that those things in dispute really are besides the point. Even so, to "see the point," is a matter of Spiritual quickening.

I hear you again brother. The Holy Spirit speaks to it's own. The children of light.
 
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Eseven

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That is understandable. Without judgement, I clearly understand that a spider is free to roam in a palace undetectable for it's size and maneuverability and ability to hide itself. How does that compare to a lizard? A lizard is like a rat and is easily detectable.

Solomon observes the positives of creatures and creeping things and encourages each to use them. How is being a lizard, perhaps the size of a rat, an advantage in a palace, easily caught?

He teaches of the glory of the lion, how it is king of its environment. King of beasts. Unaffraid of any creature.

He teaches how the locust abilty to understand is truely a gift of God.

He teaches how a spider can be present and yet undetected.

How can a lizard be of any use in a palace?

I don't know how big or small the reptile in question is. Are you saying the correct translation is "spider" and not lizard?
 
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astein

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This debating over translations doesn't help anyone, doesn't love anyone, doesn't comfort anyone. Im not judging anyone because im guilty, but GT needs to get off its useless but and start edifying people with love, not debate.

Instruction is for the wise. Wisdom is of love. So, how come NIV and KJV differ directions with regards to translation?
One is one, void of division.
 
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Eseven

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Instruction is for the wise. Wisdom is of love. So, how come NIV and KJV differ directions with regards to translation?
One is one, not divided.

Give it a rest friend, it wont edify people who are hurting over hardship.


1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11 ¶ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 
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bornofGod888

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How does a lizard compare to a spider, despite the obvious, they are creations?

How come the exact texts aren't good enough?

If you read the text in context, then the meaning remains the same:

Proverbs 30:24-28 said:
There be four things which are little upon the earth, but they are exceeding wise: The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer; The conies are but a feeble folk, yet make they their houses in the rocks; The locusts have no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands; The spider taketh hold with her hands, and is in kings' palaces.

Contextually, Solomon is speaking of little creatures that can teach us how to be wise if we observe them.

Ants prepare aforetime for the future.

Conies dwell in the rocks or in a place of stability.

Locusts go forth in bands or are united in battle.

Spiders work their way into places of authority.

As far as the discrepancy between "spiders" and "lizards" is concerned, perhaps the following will explain it to you:

Proverbs 30:28 a lizard can be caught with the hand, yet it is found in kings' palaces.

In this verse the expression wavers in a way that is with difficulty determinable between שׂממית and שׁממית. The Edd. of Opitz Jablonski and Van der Hooght have 'שׂם, but the most, from the Venetian 1521 to Nissel, have 'שׁם (vid., Mhlau, p. 69). The Codd. also differ as to the reading of the word; thus the Codd. Erfurt 2 and 3 have 'שׂם, but Cod. 1294 has 'שׁם. Isaak Tschelebi and Moses Algazi, in their writings regarding words with שׁ and שׂ (Constant. 1723 and 1799), prefer 'שׂם, and so also do Mordecai Nathan in his Concordance (1563-4), David de Pomis (1587), and Norzi. An important evidence is the writing סממית, Schabbath 77b, but it is as little decisive as סריון [coat of mail], used by Jeremiah 44:4, is decisive against the older expression שׁריון. But what kind of a beast is meant here is a question. The swallow is at once to be set aside, as the Venet. translates (χελιδών) after Kimchi, who explains after Abulwald, but not without including himself, that the Heb. word for (Arab.) khuttaf (which is still the name given to the swallow from its quickness of motion), according to Haja's testimony, is much rather סנוּנית, a name for the swallow; which also the Arab. (Freytag, ii. p. 368) and the modern Syriac confirm; besides, in old Heb. it has the name of סוּס or סיס (from Arab. shash, to fly confusedly hither and thither). In like manner the ape (Aben Ezra, Meri, Immanuel) is to be set aside, for this is called קוף (Indian kapi, kap, kamp, to move inconstantly and quickly up and down),
(Note: Vid., A Weber's Indische Studien, i. pp. 217, 343.)
and appears here admissible only on the ground that from בידים תתפשׂ they read that the beast had a resemblance to man. There remains now only the lizard (lxx, Jerome) and the spider (Luther) to be considered. The Talmud, Schabbath 77b, reckons five instances in which fear of the weaker pursues the stronger: one of these instances is אימת סנוניתעל הנשׁר, another אימת סממית על העקרב. The swallow, thus Rashi explains, creeps under the wings of the eagle and hinders it from spreading them out in its flight; and the spider (araigne) creeps into the ear of the scorpion; or also: a bruised spider applied heals the scorpion's sting. A second time the word occurs, Sanhedrin 103b, where it is said of King Amon that he burnt the Tôra, and that over the altar came a שממית (here with ש), which Rashi explains of the spider (a spider's web). But Aruch testifies that in these two places of the Talmud the explanation is divided between ragnatelo (spider) and (Ital.) lucrta (lizard). For the latter, he refers to Leviticus 11:30, where לטאה (also explained by Rashi by lzard) in the Jerus. Targ. is rendered
(Note: The Samaritan has, Leviticus 11:30, שממית for אנקה, and the Syr. translates the latter word by אמקתא, which is used in the passage before us (cf. Geiger's Urschrift, p. 68f.) for שממית; omakto (Targ. akmetha) appears there to mean, not a spider, but a lizard.)
by שממיתא (the writing here also varies between שׁ and שׂ or ס). Accordingly, and after the lxx and Jerome, it may be regarded as a confirmed tradition that שממית means not the spider, for which the name עכּבישׁ is coined, but the lizard, and particularly the stellion (spotted lizard). Thus the later language used it as a word still living (plur. סממיּות, Sifre, under Deuteronomy 33:19). The Arab. also confirms this name as applicable to the lizard.
(Note: Perhaps also the modern Greek, σαμιάμινθος (σαμιάμιδος, σαμιαμίδιον), which Grotius compares.) "To this day in Syria and in the Desert it is called samawiyyat, probably not from poison, but from samawah equals שׁממה, the wilderness, because the beast is found only in the stony heaps of the Kharab" (Mhlau after Wetzstein). If this derivation is correct, then שׁממית is to be regarded as an original Heb. expression; but the lizard's name, samm, which, without doubt, designates the animal as poisonous (cf. סם, samam, samm, vapour, poisonous breath, poison), favours Schultens' view: שממית equals (Arab.) samamyyat, afflatu interficiens, or generally venenosa. In the expression בּידים תּתפּשׂ, Schultens, Gesenius, Ewald, Hitzig, Geier, and others, understand ידים of the two fore-feet of the lizard: "the lizard feels (or: seizes) with its two hands;" but granting that ידים is used of the fifteen feet of the stellio, or of the climbing feet of any other animal (lxx καλαβώτης equals ἀσκαλαβώτης), yet it is opposed by this explanation, that in line first of this fourth distich an expression regarding the smallness of the weakness of the beast is to be expected, as at 25a, 26a, and 27a. And since, besides, תפשׂ with ביד or בכף always means "to catch" or "seize" (Ezekiel 21:16; Ezekiel 29:7; Jeremiah 38:23), so the sense according to that explanation is: the lizard thou canst catch with the hand, and yet it is in kings' palaces, i.e., it is a little beast, which one can grasp with his hand, and yet it knows how to gain an entrance into palaces, by which in its nimbleness and cunning this is to be thought of, that it can scale the walls even to the summit (Aristoph. Nubes 170). To read תּתּפשׂ with Mhlau, after Bttcher, recommends itself by this, that in תּהפּשׂ one misses the suff. pointing back (תּתפּשׂנּה); also why the intensive of תפשׂ is used, is not rightly comprehended. Besides, the address makes the expression more animated; cf. Isaiah 7:25, תבוא. In the lxx as it lies before us, the two explanations spoken of are mingled together: καὶ καλαβώτης ( equals ἀσκαλαβώτης) χερσὶν ἐπειδόμενος καὶ εὐάλωτος ὢν... This εὐάλωτος ὢν (Symmachus, χερσὶν ἐλλαμβανόμενος) hits the sense of 28a. In היכלי מלך, מלך is not the genit. of possession, as at Psalm 45:9, but of description (Hitzig), as at Amos 7:13.

Whether a "spider" or "lizard" was intended, the point is that, although it is small, it works itself into kings' palaces or places of authority.
 
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astein

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If you read the text in context, then the meaning remains the same:

It doesn't though. A spider is small and a creeping thing. A lizard is larger and unable to produce webs and climbing abilities. It is different.




Whether a "spider" or "lizard" was intended, the point is that, although it is small, it works itself into kings' palaces or places of authority.

The point is, it isn't the same. Even man is able to discern between the two.
 
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astein

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Give it a rest friend, it wont edify people who are hurting over hardship.


1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11 ¶ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Give it a rest? Your insisting that different translations are the same. View the word and the divisions. Wake from the dreary and view the differences. God is perfect. It is already true, man cannot change that by flattery. Consider the hardships obtained from divsions. Set the path straight or reject God.
 
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bornofGod888

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It doesn't though. A spider is small and a creeping thing. A lizard is larger and unable to produce webs and climbing abilities. It is different.

Yes, it does. Again, you're looking at differences between the two creatures, but missing the intended point which is that something small, whether or spider or a lizard, works its way into a place of authority. When I was down in Florida once, a lizard worked its way into my car. Similarly, I've found spiders in my car on many occasions. In this regard, there's no difference whatsoever. Regardless of their form or appearance, they're both small enough to work their way into places. That's the point.

The point is, it isn't the same. Even man is able to discern between the two.

See above.
 
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