If God wanted us perfect...

quatona

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The anthropormorphisms like God "being displeased" are for our benefit only.
It was part of the explanation the person I was talking to gave me.

God condescends to mankind.
I wasn´t aware that RDKirk was God´s screen name.
 
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Slaol121

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The Bible never says creation and man were perfect.

There is a difference from being "perfectly created" and being "made perfect". The bible does say that man was without sin until the fall.

God made man deficient in that He did not create another God.
 
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Slaol121

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Okay; if they were perfect they would not have made the decision on their own to sin. Care to respond to that?

They can be "perfectly made" without being perfect. God made man exactly how He wanted to. Sin was a perversion of that original creation.



Vessel's don't decide to fall on their own; if they fall it is because they were either mishandled or misplaced by the potter. With that in mind; your point is?

Ken

God created Man knowing full well they would sin. He is all powerful, all sovereign. The fact that God chose to make us less than Gods was his right.
 
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RDKirk

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What I personally can´t wrap my mind around is the idea that - as your explanation seems to suggest - god intentionally set up everything so that a drama could/would unfold, and then somehow is displeased with there being the very drama he initiated. All this smells like cognitive dissonance, to me.

As has been mentioned, we are limited to anthropomorphizing "feelings" of a being who is actually beyond our understanding. We're trying to assign those "feelings" based on the very, very limited knowledge of God's characteristics that can be revealed through the spoken or written word.

What is is what must be for an ultimate good that only God can calculate--and that's a matter of faith.

But to answer the question you originally asked, God did not make us perfect, but He did put us on a quest for perfection--knowing that it can only be found in connection to Him.
 
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quatona

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As has been mentioned, we are limited to anthropomorphizing "feelings" of a being who is actually beyond our understanding. We're trying to assign those "feelings" based on the very, very limited knowledge of God's characteristics that can be revealed through the spoken or written word.
Fair enough. So what makes sense to you by your way of anthropomorphizing your god concept doesn´t make sense to me.



But to answer the question you originally asked, God did not make us perfect,
So am I understanding you correctly here:
Your response to the OP is that the premise "God wanted us to be perfect" is false?
but He did put us on a quest for perfection--knowing that it can only be found in connection to Him.
So, in your way of anthropomorphizing the god of your concept, is there some kind of intellgible explanation as to why god didn´t want us to be perfect but instead merely "put us on a quest for perfection"?
(Did god, by any chance, find something to be unsatisfactory about the perfect state of affairs - prior to the act of creation?)
 
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bricklayer

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Says who?

You seem to have defined God as "that which doesn't change", which is far from being an accepted definition.

I have written on this extensively in other threads. I would love to expand on it again; however, I do not want to derail.

If you sincerely want to read my reasoning I will start a thread on God's holiness.
Holy means inviolate, unchangable.

The God of the bible uniquely fulfills the onmi-implcations of a necessary being.
 
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lordbt

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I have written on this extensively in other threads. I would love to expand on it again; however, I do not want to derail.

If you sincerely want to read my reasoning I will start a thread on God's holiness.
Holy means inviolate, unchangable.

The God of the bible uniquely fulfills the onmi-implcations of a necessary being.
Plus, what would be the point of changing that which is already perfect? The point of change is to improve. You cannot improve upon that which is already perfect.
 
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bricklayer

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Plus, what would be the point of changing that which is already perfect? The point of change is to improve. You cannot improve upon that which is already perfect.


You'd think more people would notice that.

Any change in God's knowledge would be to know less.
Any change at all in God's being would be to be less.

At the heart of most theological error, among Christians, is a lack of perception of God's absolute sovereignty.
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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Plus, what would be the point of changing that which is already perfect? The point of change is to improve. You cannot improve upon that which is already perfect.

Quatona touched on this same point in his last post:

by taking it upon Himself to create, God violated your concept here.

The same is true of the Incarnation, so we can clearly see that God does not abide your stated rules.
 
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lordbt

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Quatona touched on this same point in his last post:

by taking it upon Himself to create, God violated your concept here.

The same is true of the Incarnation, so we can clearly see that God does not abide your stated rules.
That God would create something that did not before exist does not alter His nature. His perfection is not altered in any way if he creates soething or chooses not to.
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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That God would create something that did not before exist does not alter His nature. His perfection is not altered in any way if he creates soething or chooses not to.

I did not realize you were speaking of God's own existence. In this case you are correct; it surprises me to see an atheist speaking in these terms?
 
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bricklayer

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Quatona touched on this same point in his last post:

by taking it upon Himself to create, God violated your concept here.

The same is true of the Incarnation, so we can clearly see that God does not abide your stated rules.

God cannot change in His being. God cannot come to know, come to feel, come to will, come to be or not be.

Your ideas dawn on you not God. Your choices come to you not God.

You come to know what God is and what God is not.
You come to know good and evil.
You are not contributing to God's creation anything near what He leaves you to believe you are, at this time.
 
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RDKirk

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So am I understanding you correctly here:
Your response to the OP is that the premise "God wanted us to be perfect" is false?

You asked, "...why didn't he just make us that way [perfect]?" I responded to the question you asked. I'm not saying your premise is correct; I'm saying that your idea of the best method to achieve perfection in mankind apparently not the method God chose. I can speculate on some reasons, but that would be only speculation. God does tell us why, only what and to some extent how.

So, in your way of anthropomorphizing the god of your concept, is there some kind of intellgible explanation as to why god didn´t want us to be perfect but instead merely "put us on a quest for perfection"?
(Did god, by any chance, find something to be unsatisfactory about the perfect state of affairs - prior to the act of creation?)

God did not create us perfect, which is not saying that God does not want us perfect. Scripturally, He has stated that he does want us to become perfect. Remembering that "perfect" means "completed," how could anything be "perfect" before it had been created?
 
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BluhdoftheLamb

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God cannot change in His being. God cannot come to know, come to feel, come to will, come to be or not be.

Your ideas dawn on you not God. Your choices come to you not God.

You come to know what God is and what God is not.
You come to know good and evil.
You are not contributing to God's creation anything near what He leaves you to believe you are, at this time.

None of this is responsive to my quote you responded to?
 
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bricklayer

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When God said that it is not good for man to be alone, Adam was alone with God, in paradise, in a sinless relationship.

So I ask you, what was the good that was missing?
Certainly, Adam was not missing any good thing, and God wasn't missing any good thing.

I submit that the good that was missing is the same good spoken of when it is written that, "God works all things together for the GOOD of those He has love Him and He calls according to His purpose.

Perfection speaks of no more potential to change.
Human beings are defined by our changes.
Human beings are a complex of intellectual, emotional, willfull and biological processes.
(A process is a prescribed sequence of changes.)
We are and always will be changing; so, pace yourself.
 
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