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Slaol121

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Doesn't the US have a Bill of Rights and Freedoms? ...

After all, it is the least of us who will be greatest in heaven. And in the context of this thread, those little unborn babies will be greatest because they do not have a voice on earth.

In the United States, a mother is elevated to the status of God while she is pregnant.

It is only during this period that she has the state-sanctioned right to will the destruction of innocent life with the words "I do not want this child".

This is an unspeakable evil.

No, Mr. President: John Piper's Response to President Obama on Abortion - YouTube


James 1:26-27 (ESV) says:

"If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world."


Pastor John Piper expands on this verse in his sermon "Visiting Orphans in a World of AIDS and Abortion":

"What does abortion have to do with orphans? The connection I see is this: God wants us to be concerned about orphans because they are helpless without mother and father, and we should feel compassion for the helpless who depend utterly on others for life. Picture a three-year-old child riding in his safety seat on the back seat of a car with his mommy and daddy riding in the front. There is a terrible crash and both mommy and daddy are killed. The child has minor injuries, but is okay. The hospital officials check and discover there are no grandparents and no other family members known. This is a heartbreaking situation. And God says to the church, step in there and take care of that child.

So orphans are children whose parents have died and left them at the mercy of others to take care of, lest they die. How does abortion relate to that? Well, abortion puts the child in a worse situation. The parents are not dead, but they have turned on the child and choose to have the child dead. This is worse than being an orphan. To have Mommy and Daddy choose to have you dead is worse than Mommy and Daddy being dead."
 
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ValleyGal

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Clare73, social justice has nothing to do with law or legal justice. That's why your earlier post suggesting there is no such thing as social justice and that justice is just justice, is an inaccurate suggestion.

I do not know your Constitution. I am Canadian, but as far as I know, Constitution is little more than the pretense of enforcing human rights and freedoms. Social justice is about giving a voice to the voiceless, challenging policies that create barriers for the underdog, being our brother's keeper - all things that the Bible teaches us about how we are to extend Christian love.

Meeting them where they are at should be determined by how well they are able to access resources that they have rights to, making sure they are able to access those resources, and walking alongside them from their starting point rather than our own, or rather than where we think they should be.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73, social justice has nothing to do with law or legal justice. That's why your earlier post suggesting there is no such thing as social justice and that justice is just justice, is an inaccurate suggestion.

I do not know your Constitution. I am Canadian, but as far as I know, Constitution is little more than the pretense of enforcing human rights and freedoms. Social justice is about giving a voice to the voiceless, challenging policies that create barriers for the underdog, being our brother's keeper - all things that the Bible teaches us about how we are to extend Christian love.

Meeting them where they are at should be determined by how well they are able to access resources that they have rights to, making sure they are able to access those resources, and walking alongside them from their starting point rather than our own, or rather than where we think they should be.
Well, since you don't live in our society, you may not be in a position to comment on our social justice.
 
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ValleyGal

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Non-responsive, but agreed.

I'm a little curious as to how you can agree that social justice is social justice no matter where you are in the world, when your original premise is that there is no such thing as social justice?

There is no such thing as social justice, either Biblically or in our legal system.
 
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Well, since you don't live in our society, you may not be in a position to comment on our social justice.

Canadians and the rest of the world can talk about America's "social justice" or "non-social justice." It is purely political (and human-forming) reasoning to say people who do not live here should have no say. Jesus came to save the ENTIRE world, not just a particular people or small group, but ALL. Jesus is God in human form to give us a PERFECT example to live by - that applies to all - no matter what geographical region they live in.

People throughout the entire world should be at the same standard as Jesus's words. Jesus wanted all to live as He did and follow Him (God). His way was without any sin (Jesus was sinless! :preach:). When Jesus was resurrected it was written that the earth shook, not a specific nation or place, but the word choice was the earth, which has a wider meaning.
 
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it also makes me mad how people treat the elderly today. i was watching the news the other day and a story came up about how an elderly person in a nursing home in america was having a heart attack and was unconscious. the nurce rang for an ambulance and the 911 operator was saying telling her to do cpr on her. but the nurse refused because it was "against protocol" for her to do cpr. the elderly person hadn't "paid for it" before hand:/ the elderly person had paid for individual living...so the home wouldn't allow the nurse to do cpr so the elderly woman died.
how stupids that?? society has no respect for life

Personally, I saw that as well and was furious! I was very angry! I know they could have saved her if they went for the defibrillator. ANYONE can perform cpr and start a heard with a defibrillator, because the ones they sell tell any person how to use the machine and do cpr (e.g., Philips HeartStart Home Defibrillator - $1000, but maybe they'll lower their prices. Plus, a human life is PRICELESS!). They'll walk you through it! IMO, I think they should be required to be in every rental home in America like they require smoke detectors and carbon dioxide detectors (latter is state regulated, however).

The response I received from someone to my anger and "We've got to do something! I'll never do that if I was a registered nurse!"... "Stop listening to the liberal media." (???)..... My response? "So I'm liberal because I don't want people to die?!?!" In America, I AM liberal actually because I'm for universal healthcare and more money put into medical care and research, especially to aid the poor (the rich can go elsewhere and pay out of pocket, e.g., Iceland which is the #1 medical tourist destination). That alonedoes it here!
 
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Slaol121

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The movie is called Silent Scream and it has been debunked by countless doctors . Christians need to get off their anti abortion high horse. There is not one scripture pertaining to abortion.

"Thou shalt not kill..."

As a physician, I will tell you that even abortion doctors will agree that abortion kills a human being. The bible is very clear that only God has the right to take innocent life. We are not gods.
 
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ValleyGal

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Actually, there is plenty in the Bible about abortion, even if it does not come right out and say "do not kill unborn babies." There are principles that speak to the issue, like not killing. There is also the passage in Psalms that tells us that it is God himself who forms us in the womb, not to mention that we are made in God's likeness. So we take this respect for human life, and add to it those principles that say we should not kill, we should honour God with our body (which is a temple), and there is a passage, iirc in Exodus which says the punishment for causing the death of a baby in the womb is the same as the punishment for killing an adult. Sooo....I'd say it has enough to say on abortion to provide a clear moral position.
 
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Slaol121

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If you are not a God then you better stop adding to Gods word. The bible says nothing about abortion. Zero. Zilch. Nada. As a conservative physician you have an agenda. Yeah....i know a few physicians too. Good try though , neocon :)

Do you believe abortion kills a human being?
 
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Slaol121

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Hogwash. There is no biblical evidence whatsoever that any of Gods laws include the unborn...

Not true.

Exodus 21:22-25 ESV

"When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe..."
 
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ValleyGal

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Not true.

Exodus 21:22-25 ESV

"When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound,



Nothing even close to abortion is talked about here. Also...the idea...obviously......is that the womans property has been harmed. So with harm it shall be repaid. Not sure where youre getting abortion from this. You do realize that abortion is a woman choosing to terminate her own pregnancy dont you? Nothing even close to that is happening in this passage

This is not about harming a woman's property. It says life for life. Iow, an unborn baby is a human life, and it was punished as such. Now, the beating a woman might have suffered back then might not have been deliberately to kill the unborn baby (abortion), meaning that the baby's death would be accidental. That is still life for life. How much worse is it when it is deliberately killing an unborn child?
 
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Slaol121

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What in the context here implies anything even close to abortion? Also it doesnt say that at all read the passage. If harm comes to the WOMAN then there is life for life. It would be near impossible for harm not to come to the fetus if it is prematurely thrust out because of someones punch. So obviously the harm that requires life for life is harm to the woman.
what this statement is saying is that an accidental abortion is clearly worth taking the Life of the attackers. How much more horrible a crime, then, when the crime against the child is on purpose?

You need to answer my question first:

Does abortion result in a dead human being?
 
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Slaol121

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.burden of proof is on you brother. But to answer your question early term aborted fetus are not fully developed humans. But i could care less if they were. They are part of the womans body and therefore her property. ;)

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word abortion. An abortion is simply the early termination of pregnancy. It does not matter if it is elective or accidental. I believe that the passage I quoted clearly places a great value on the life of the unborn child. While it clearly does not specifically say that elective abortion is wrong,e it does permit the taking of life in exchange for the life of a child. This clearly places a great value on the life of an unborn child in Scripture.

If we're to use basic logic it is not entirely unreasonable to believe that God would find elective abortions just as horrible as accident ones, if not more so.

Since you're so well versed in Scripture, please let me know where you get the idea that the unborn child is the property of the mother? The term undeveloped human life is one that can be applied to a 12 year old, so why not kill them?

The Bible says that God hates those who shed innocent blood. There is very little in the world more innocent than a child completely dependent on their mother.


Proverbs 6:16-17 ESV

"There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood..."
 
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ValleyGal

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Hogwash. The harm that requires life for life is harm to the woman. I know that common sense doesnt mix well with you conservatives but plesse try to use some kind of sense. If a fetus or baby for that matter is born prematurely due to someones punch, it would be NEAR IMPOSSIBLE for said baby or fetus to come out unharmed. It would however be possible for the woman to escape without serious harm. And the passage says that if the baby is born prrmaturely but no harm is done then the man shall pay a fine. We already know that it would be near impossible for the baby not to be harmed in that situation. So the life for life harm applies to the WOMAN. but you cant get that through your abortion obsessed heads cuz it dont fit your agenda.


But i digress......cuz EVEN IF IM WRONG there is still nothing even close to abortion taking place here.

Actually, in v. 23 it says "if any further harm..." This means any further harm to either the woman or the baby. And yes, if a woman is punched and her baby is born prematurely, the baby may very well not be harmed. Punches to the stomach can trigger labour, and this can happen at any time during the pregnancy. Not all babies have harm as a result. But the passage says "eye for eye, tooth for tooth...bruise for bruise...." If baby is born with a bruise, then the punishment would have been a court-appointed bruise on the abuser as requested by the woman's husband.

Now, let's assume this is about accidental death of baby as result of beating a woman. The beating is intended for the woman. Death of unborn baby is unintentional - manslaughter. Still punishable life for life, just as though it were intentional and just as though baby were an adult.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that if God forms us in the womb in his own image, who are we to tell God he was wrong to start forming baby? And who are we to destroy someone created in his image? Do you not fear God? Being made in his image is an honour, and if we destroy that which is created in his image, we are disrespecting his image.

A heart can be detected at 4 weeks gestation. That is life.

I seriously have a very hard time with the idea that Christians are okay with abortion. Then again, it is not me they have to answer to....it's God, in whose image we are formed. We are not our own (including pregnant women)...we were bought with a price.
 
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Slaol121

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Again i ask you.....choose any of gods laws or commands and then explain to me from the context why the hearers of the law would have even given thought to the unborn when figuring out hoe to apply the law.

Im still waiting for you to do that. But you cant. And you never will..

Let me get this straight...

You somehow believe that just because Moses specifically left out the phrase "thou shalt not kill unborn children", then it is fine to ignore all the countless other references to both the sovereignty of God and the value of ALL life in the Bible? (Let's not forget that you did, after all, agree with me that unborn children are living...)

I don't see how this is a hard concept. God creates all life. All life is sacred. The Bible is very clear that God knits us together in our mother's womb with a specific sacred plan in mind. It is very dangerous to say that we, as created beings, have the right to destroy what God has destined for his own purpose.
 
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Cactus Jack

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I shall now produce a 3 part questionaire multiple choice. If you answer correctly you have some smarts. Here goes.........
I think this is really stupid, but I'll play your game anyhow.
My answers are in bold.

Who never ever mentions protecting the unborn in scripture?
A) God
B) Conservative Moonbats

How many times does God give instruction to his followers regarding the unborn in scripture?
A) zero
B) how ever many times some preacher with an agenda says he does.

And finally...............
Who never ever in a million years ever set up laws to protect the unborn?
A) God
B) Republican nitwits

I think what they are talking about is the love Jesus shows throughout the Bible for children along with the multitude of verses that cover murder.

So tell me, tell us...how many crimes did the unborn commit? 14th Amendment, buddy! You have your freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and the unborn have the right to equal protection. And they are certainly in no position to voluntarily surrender that right.
 
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ValleyGal

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At least not in Gods eyes. If they did these guys would be able to produce even one verse showing that either God or the jews were even thinking about the unborn when hearing the law and or reading the law.

Scripture and scriptural principles have both been provided. We can't help that you won't accept them. I am glad you are not a spokesperson for God. You do not know what is true "in God's eyes."

Abortion is a big part of the reason the rest of the world laughs at christians. Abortion is not mentioned in scripture, but Christians act like its NT law number 1.

The world laughs at Christians because we live holy and righteous lives. They also laughed at Noah....at least till they realized how right he was.

Abortion is no better or worse of a sin than any other sin....we all fall short and need God's saving mercy and grace.

Protecting lives of unborn babies does not make God look bad. HOW we go about protecting those babies might make US look bad. While I agree that how pro-lifers go about it in the US (from what I hear, they preach and picket in front of abortion clinics, tell people they are bad for choosing abortion, bomb clinics, etc), the cause is a godly cause. There are better ways to go about educating people on the implications of abortion and believing that people can make up an educated decision. There are non-believers who do not value the Word, who do not value life, and who do not value being made in God's image. For them, abortion is something they will answer to God for. However, for the believer, when they are educated about biblical principles, options for saving baby's life, and supported throughout the process with education, life skills, employment skills, emotional implications, etc, these babies can be saved with little long term cost to John Q Public (social assistance).
 
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