If God wanted us to be perfect, why didn't he just make us that way? Your thoughts?
K
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If God wanted us perfect...
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GoldenBoy89
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This is probably something I should have posted in the "exploring christianity" section. I think I will post it there.
K
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The bible teaches that God made creation and Man completely perfect and without sin. It was not until the fall that sin entered the world.
As to why God did or did not do a certain thing - well, that is completely up to God. God could have instantly changed Adam and Eve back to the way they were and kept them in the garden, but he did not.
All things happen for the ultimate glory of God.
And all this was done for His glory:
"For my names sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."
Isaiah 48:911 (ESV)
John Piper - Did God's Plan Include Sin from the Beginning? - YouTube
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The only reason we grow is because are not perfect. If he made us perfect we would not need to grow.
Ken
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If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would not have fallen for the trick and disobeyed God.
Ken
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BluhdoftheLamb
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So then we see that growth is part of God's plan. The basic problem here is looking around and thinking that we see things as God intended. We don't. We are in the midst of a process, and don't yet know the finished product. The best we are told along those lines is "we will be like Him," but we honestly don't know exactly what that means either.
This is precisely why Abraham is considered the Father of the faith, and of the faithful. This is also why we are told we're subjected to Hope. Kinda uncomfortable, isn't it?
And to correct a statement above, God did not say of His original creation that is was "perfect;" He said it was good. What this means is we are so complex as to not be able to be 'poofed' into existence, and perhaps we are the only aspect of creation that this pertains to. So we have to grow, and experience the pain and suffering that goes along with it. No way around it. We share the human condition, you and I.
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They weren't tricked. They made the decision of their own accord.
A potter can make a perfect vessel on his wheel. Just because it falls off the shelf and cracks, making it worthless to sell, doesn't mean that it wasn't created perfectly.
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BluhdoftheLamb
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1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
Eve was deceived, which means to cheat and beguile. Tricked seems as good a word as any, but KJV uses deceived wrt satan being a deceiver many more times, too.
Eve was deceived, which means to cheat and beguile. Tricked seems as good a word as any, but KJV uses deceived wrt satan being a deceiver many more times, too.
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So are you saying that growth is a part of the plan? or not! If it is a part, then he should understand that we are gonna sin a little until we grow to perfection (assuming he allows us to grow to that level) if not then why didnt he make us perfect?
So then we see that growth is part of God's plan. The basic problem here is looking around and thinking that we see things as God intended. We don't.
If he wants us to be like him, he should have made us perfec; dont cha think?
K
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BluhdoftheLamb
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I thought I was clear in saying growth is part of the plan. I also think the Gospel clearly spells out that He has made provision for our mistakes, and spelled out what that provision is.
You're still making the same mistake I pointed out, looking at this as though we could see a finished product when we can't. We're in the middle of a process. The only correction necessary is that you now realize God is currently making us perfect and we don't have an ETA, rather than mistakenly thinking we should be able to see perfection now, or by Tuesday.
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Okay; if they were perfect they would not have made the decision on their own to sin. Care to respond to that?
Vessel's don't decide to fall on their own; if they fall it is because they were either mishandled or misplaced by the potter. With that in mind; your point is?
Ken
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bricklayer
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God cannot change, nor Can God create something that does not change.
God made man "good", but man had to change.
The best creation possible is the one we now have, a creation that now and forever changes toward God, a creation being saved, redeemed.
God made man "good", but man had to change.
The best creation possible is the one we now have, a creation that now and forever changes toward God, a creation being saved, redeemed.
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God made mankind, male and female and called mankind "good," not "perfect." There is a difference. "Good" (ontologically) means "judged fully satisfactory for its intended purpose." "Perfect" means "absolutely complete."
I can build a house, and at any stage I can pronounce it "good," yet it's not "perfect" until the house is complete. In the same way, at each stage of Creation, God could say "good" even though Creation was yet incomplete--not "perfect."
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Was it a perfect decision? Do perfect entities make non-perfect decisions?
Personally, I wouldn´t call a car that explodes the first time you start the engine "created perfectly". Your mileage may vary, though.
In any case it means that the person who had created it chose the place to store it carelessly. However, if assuming that the creator was perfect, omnipotent and omniscient (not to mention: is the the creator of not only the vessel but of the shelf, of gravity and literally everything) we would have to conclude that he wanted it to fall off the shelf and crack.
Anyway, I have yet to meet a potter who blames his vessel for falling off the shelf. Maybe you should get your analogies straight?
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Do you think that God would judge mankind as it is currently "fully satisfactory for its intended purpose."?
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But the provisions are provided with the assumption that he is doing us some sort of a favor rather than him doing something that he is obligated to do because we are simply doing what he designed us to do.
You are misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about becoming perfect, I'm saying we should have always been perfect. There should have never been a point in human history when we were not perfect, if that is what he expects of us.
Ken
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