Doctrines of Jesus or [RC] 'Mary', one or the other, but not both, take your pick...

sunlover1

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They're having a real discussion but not very orderly it seems.
From what I can gather it has to do with marian worship
(Spelling?)
I wouldn't get involved with any of that.
 
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III Angeli Nuntius

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So, you don't think the Holy Spirit could teach the Pope something and he could pass that along to other people? (Like you're doing with this teaching.)
As stated earlier, the Holy Spirit does not contradict what comes before. All are to be tested by the Word, not the Word by us:

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

The Word of God discerns us. We do not dictate to it.

Therefore From Genesis to Revelation, where one doctrine is expounded, it is given throughout the same - unchanging.

Matthew 23:9, speaking of religious leaders, see context.
 
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Adaephon

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They're having a real discussion but not very orderly it seems.
From what I can gather it has to do with marian worship
(Spelling?)
I wouldn't get involved with any of that.

Strange how it isn't in the subforum specifically created for the discussion of mariology. And nobody worships Mary anyways.
 
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sunlover1

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I've literally never heard of a religion or sect that actually worships the Theotokos, much less talks about it in GT.
Well I have lol.
TLF might be one of them.
Maybe someone else can remember who
does and argues for it.

You'd have to look in the Mary folder.

It's a different kind of worship so it's legal.
 
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Adaephon

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III Angeli Nuntius

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Strange how it isn't in the subforum specifically created for the discussion of mariology. And nobody worships Mary anyways.
First of all, this thread is not about Mary, but about Jesus. Did you watch the videos...?

Secondly, yes they do worship 'her' [that 'angel of light']:

"...the Most August Virgin Mary ... this Divine Mother... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God, so that the Church even addresses to her the words with which we pray to God: "Have mercy on sinners." …
… the heavenly choirs, "above whom the Holy Mother of God is exalted." ...”
[AUGUSTISSIMAE VIRGINIS MARIAE (August Virgin Mary); ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON THE CONFRATERNITY OF THE HOLY ROSARY; SEPTEMBER 12, 1897]- Leo XIII - Augustissimae Virginis Mariae and AUGUSTISSIMAE VIRGINIS MARIAE


More will be given on that later.
 
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III Angeli Nuntius

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Rich Man And Lazarus Part 1[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]:

“Hell” is used 54 times in the Bible, 31 times in the Old Testament and 23 times in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, the word used is “Sheol” (31) and it means “the general grave”.

In the New Testament, the words used are “Hades” (10) meaning “the general grave”, “Gehenna” (12) meaning “a place of burning and destruction” (after the valley of (the sons of) Hinnom; the burning town dump outside of Jerusalem) and “Tartarus” (1) meaning “a place of darkness”.

If the punishment for Sin is eternal suffering in fire for all of eternity, then Christ Jesus did not pay that penalty, and did not take our punishment, which is Death for Sin. Yet, Jesus died...
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Some will then go to Luke 16, the Parable of Lazarus...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"Rich Man and Lazarus" of Luke 16, comes [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]in a series of Parables[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] after a small discourse to great multitudes really beginning in Luke 14:25[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And there went
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]great multitudes[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] with him: and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he turned, and said unto them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Luke 14:25

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and also in Luke 15:1-2, to tax collectors, sinners who surrounded Him and to Pharisees and Scribes who were complaining...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Then
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. Luke 15:1

And
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Pharisees and scribes[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. Luke 15:2

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and as Jesus heard the Pharisees and Scribes complaining and so HE speaks unto them in parables beginning in Luke 15:3[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he spake this parable unto them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], saying, Luke 15:3

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and continues with the Parable of the "man with the 100 Sheep who had one lost" from Luke 15:4-7, and then begins another Parable in Luke 15:8-10 about the "Woman who Lost a Coin" Luke 15:11[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][though Jesus is still speaking in Parables, in both instances in the scriptures it does not specifically say that the words to come after verses 8 or 11 were Parable, but yet that is because the scripture had already made clear that this was what Jesus was doing from verse 3][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And he said, A certain man had two sons: Luke 15:11

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...which then begins the Parable from Luke 15:11-32 about the "Man who had Two Sons" [Prodigal Sons Parable].[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jesus then turns to His disciples and continues in Luke 16:1, with yet another parable, the parable of the "God and Mammon"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he said also unto his disciples[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. Luke 16:1

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and the word "also" joins the previous parables with this parable along with what further continues ["they heard all these things"]...now after that Mammon Parable, the Pharisees, being lovers of Money, broke into the series of Parables and derided Jesus in Luke 16:14[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Pharisees also[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], who were covetous, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]heard all these things[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: and they derided him. Luke 16:14

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...but Jesus immediately counters their derision with what the Law says on the matter about Money and Divorce in Luke 16:15-18 and then drives home the point of their hypocrisy and double standard as well as their neglect of duty to being the Light to the Gentiles with the Parable of Luke 16:19-31 in the Parable of the "Rich Man And Lazarus"...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he said unto them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now that it is established that the "Rich Man and Lazarus" is indeed a Parable, let us look a little further at some scriptures to be even more and absolutely sure:

When Jesus spoke of these things to the Pharisees He said that He would speak to them in parable:
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

I will
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]open my mouth in a parable[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: I will [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]utter dark sayings of old[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: Psalm 78:2

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: Mark 4:11

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God:
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. Luke 8:10

And
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Pharisees also[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], who were covetous, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]heard all these things[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: and they derided him. Luke 16:14

And
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he said unto them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...This Parable does not start with the words “the Kingdom of Heaven is like...” as it is about the failure of the Nation of Israel to be the Light of the world.

The parable is not giving us a specific picture of an etheral place a person goes immediately after death [for first of all the Judgment must come first, God said that the Wheat and Tares grow together unto the end, then is the Harvest, and then are the Wheat gathered into the Barn and then only are the Tares thrown into the fire, which consumes them into smoke and ashes to be no more, which fire burns upon the whole surface of the earth, their body [made of dust] and whole being [breath plus dust] being cast into the fire all together, at the same time, to be destroyed, perished, not be any more]:

...The Parable Lesson:
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The certain “rich man” [Pharisaical Israel], a “child of Abraham”, who has the TRUTH that are not sharing their “food” [the Word of God; Bread, see Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4] with the “poor”...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...of which even the "dogs" [samaritans, gentiles] must lick the wounds of...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Matthew 15:27

And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. Mark 7:28

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...they may find that in the Judgment the “poor” are saved and the “rich” are lost.

The responsibility is to share the Gospel,
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Matthew 10:8

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let us now look at the Parable itself... where Jesus swaps the roles and and beliefs of Gentile and Jew...to teach an important lesson about salvation, in that it does not come through bloodline, etc.[/FONT]
 
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III Angeli Nuntius

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Rich Man And Lazarus Part 2[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jesus was telling them [Pharisees and those listening] that if they did not share the Gospel with the "Poor", that they might find that many come from the East and the West and sit down in the Kingdom with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [at the Resurrection at the end of the world], and that they themselves would be cast out while [To whom much is given, much is required] the Gentiles be let in.

This was a huge reversal to the reality that the Pharisaical Jews had in mind about who was to be in the Kingdom and how it was to come.

They had come to believe that there was a salvation by physical descendancy, nationality, by bloodline.

Christ Jesus told them it was not so by the use of the parable. They would have been taken aback and aghast that such a statement should be made.

Key factors that identify it as a Symbolical [and not literal] Parable:
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees while amongst many, ie. a parable and uses their own incorrect understandings in a role-reversal.

[Another close relation can be viewed elsewhere when God is speaking of a similar time of failure of the Jewish nation to be what they were supposed to be]:
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. Eze. 16:49

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The dead know nothing. Also how could any communicate or consciously form coherent thought and speech while in writhing burning agony [literal physical or extreme mental anguish makes no difference]. God is no sadist, and neither are the redeemed, they would not enjoy seeing people burn for all eternity, for that is a picture of the character of God that Satan himself has foisted upon Christ - it makes God out to be the devil, the one who wants/allows pain and suffering and misery to continue.

[Yet we know that it was satan in the Garden who wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Life after partaking of the other Tree and remain immortal sinners...in Loving Mercy, Christ allowed no such thing, and barred the way to the Tree of Life. God has said that sin, pain and suffering will end for all time and never rise again, God will not allow it to be prolonged into eternity.]:
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psa. 115:17

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc. 9:5

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecc. 9:10

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][See previous evidence on this.][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]3. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The certain “rich man” [Pharisaical Israel, the “children of Abraham”] prays not to God, but to “Abraham” [“salvation by special relation”, ie. Salvation simply by being a Jew; which Christ Jesus over and over again refuted ...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Mat. 3:9

"... begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Luk 3:8;p

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father..." Jhn 8:39;p]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...of which “Lazarus” [meaning: “He whom God helps”, a form of Eleazer, ie. "the poor"] is directly in the “bosom” of.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]4.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The “Bosom of Abraham”, which is a colloquial or euphemistic saying [symbolical], for Abraham himself, who not yet being in Heaven but in the grave, is still sleeping and awaiting for New Jerusalem from above and for the promises:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. Heb. 11:10

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off ...and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. Heb. 11:13;p

But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. Heb. 11:16

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Jhn 14:2

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven..." Rev. 21:2;p

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]5.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] One drop of literal water being able to cool and relieve someone in “hellfire” is unsound, but since Water in the Bible symbolically represents the "Water of Life"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Jhn 4:14

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][See also Exo. 17:6; Psa. 114:8; 1 Cor. 10:4; Rev. 21:6, 22:1,17, etc]

...and the "Living Water"...
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

"... he would have given thee living water." Jhn 4:10;p

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][See also Exo. 17:6; Psa. 114:8; 1 Cor. 10:4; Jer. 2:13, Jhn 4:11, 7:38, etc] it is to this that it represents.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

"... he would have given thee living water." Jhn 4:10;p

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Jhn 7:38

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor. 10:4

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]6. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word used here in the Greek for “Hell” is “hades” “[/FONT][FONT=Cambria Math, serif]ᾅ[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]δης” and means the general idea of the grave and death, the destination of men:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. Gen. 3:19, like the Hebrew term “Sheol” and not a place of “eternal torment”.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][See previous evidence...][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]7.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] “Abraham” is asked to send "Lazarus" to dip his "Finger" in water and the Rich man has a "Tongue". If they both are supposed to be "bodyless" [immortal incorporal men-shades] then how is this so?[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]8.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] “Abraham” in the story tells the “rich man” if his relatives do not hear the Law [Moses] and the Prophets [ie. The Word of God; See Mat. 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40; Luk 16:16, 24:27,44; Jhn 1:45; Acts 13:15, 24:24, 28:23; Rom. 3:21], then they will not repent though one rose from the Dead; the Law and the Prophets speak of Jesus:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jhn 5:39

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...the one who would rise from the dead [some have said is speaking of the actual Lazarus whom Jesus was to later Raise, but even more so it is speaking of Jesus whom the scriptures reveal]:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Jhn 2:19

But he spake of the temple of his body. Jhn 2:21

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and the one whom they rejected because they had already rejected the Law:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mrk 7:9

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. Jhn 8:37

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Jhn 8:40

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and rejected the Prophets:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? Mat. 21:25

For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Mat. 21:32

The baptism of John, was [it] from heaven, or of men? answer me. Mrk 11:30

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. Luk 7:30

The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? Luk 20:4

And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? Luk 20:5

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]More to Come... ...This same example was given of Herod the Tetrarch with John the Baptist. ...[/FONT]
 
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III Angeli Nuntius

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Rich Man And Lazarus Part 3:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Herod had heard John [the Prophet] the Baptist preach:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly. Jhn 6:20

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...but had him beheaded [murdered, transgression of the law] anyway:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

But when Herod heard [thereof], he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead. Mrk 6:16

"And Herod said, John have I beheaded: ..." Luk 9:9;p

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and when Jesus came before him at trial:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

"... Herod saw Jesus, ... he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him." Luk 23:8;p

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...He answered Herod not a word:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing. Luk 23:9

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...for Herod had already rejected the message of John the Baptist, the Prophet, and the Law by murdering him, beheading him. If he would not listen to the Prophet, nor the Law, he would not have listened to Jesus:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod. Mrk 8:15

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]9.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Immediate judgment upon one's death before resurrection, being unbiblical, for Jesus 2nd Advent must come first:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

"...
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]at the last trump[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: for the trumpet shall sound, and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the dead shall be raised[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] incorruptible..." 1 Cor. 15:52;p

Henceforth there is laid up for me
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a crown of righteousness[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], which [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: and not to me only, but [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]unto all them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] also [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]that love his appearing[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. 2 Tim. 4:8

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 16:26[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] the "Great Gulf Fixed" is death itself. After a person dies there is no more chance to repent, no more chance to change directions, no chance to "purgate", the decisions beforehand in life are eternal, as Christ has stated in numerous occasions and therefore there is no purgatory and no limbo.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Either a person is written in the Lamb's book of Life, or they are blotted out from it, either a person is in Christ Jesus who is Life, or they are not and will eventually cease to have life - [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Additionally, it is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Righteous who will dwell with everlasting burnings (Isaiah 33:14)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], for God is a consuming fire [to sin and of Love] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and His ministers a flame of fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and His Throne of Fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:5)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and His speech fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] for He is a purifying fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Malachi 3:3)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Revelation 15:2)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Exodus 3:3)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], not the wicked [they are burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished; [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]].[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As is clear from scripture, rewards [for Good or Evil] are not given until Jesus comes for He Himself has said:

And, behold,
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I come quickly[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]; and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]my reward [is] with me[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12[/FONT]
 
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Adaephon

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First of all, this thread is not about Mary, but about Jesus. Did you watch the videos...?

No, your entire OP was a huge wall of text I couldn't be bothered to even try tackling.

Secondly, yes they do worship 'her' [that 'angel of light']:

"...the Most August Virgin Mary ... this Divine Mother... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God, so that the Church even addresses to her the words with which we pray to God: "Have mercy on sinners." …
… the heavenly choirs, "above whom the Holy Mother of God is exalted." ...” [AUGUSTISSIMAE VIRGINIS MARIAE (August Virgin Mary); ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON THE CONFRATERNITY OF THE HOLY ROSARY; SEPTEMBER 12, 1897]- Leo XIII - Augustissimae Virginis Mariae and AUGUSTISSIMAE VIRGINIS MARIAE

More will be given on that later.

That didn't look like worship to me.
 
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III Angeli Nuntius

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No, your entire OP was a huge wall of text I couldn't be bothered to even try tackling.

That didn't look like worship to me.
Notice, "videos".

About about placing 'Mary' between the Cherubim above the Ark at the very center of their Cathedral, bigger than a human?

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MaryMonstrance1.jpg


MaryMonstrance2.jpg
 
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sunlover1

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Never heard of it.
:confused: That one you mentioned earlier.


Or maybe I'm right and it doesn't actually exist. ;)
Why would I make that up? LOL
But anyhow, I've been called a liar by better men than you ;)


Don't know what that means, but ok.
SEE?
You'd know what it means if you knew that folks worship her.
You didn't know either but that doesnt mean i made it up.
LOL

First of all, this thread is not about Mary, but about Jesus. Did you watch the videos...?
Sorry, that was my mistake and I didn't watch the vids
and I don't care to at this time :)
Secondly, yes they do worship 'her' [that 'angel of light']:
Yep, some folks do.
Hyperdulia or some such thing they call it.
 
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Adaephon

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:confused: That one you mentioned earlier.

Why would I make that up? LOL
But anyhow, I've been called a liar by better men than you ;)

SEE?
You'd know what it means if you knew that folks worship her.
You didn't know either but that doesnt mean i made it up.
LOL

Sorry, that was my mistake and I didn't watch the vids
and I don't care to at this time :)

Yep, some folks do.
Hyperdulia or some such thing they call it.

If you don't even know what the word they are using means, it seems awfully silly to assume you know what they are talking about.
 
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sunlover1

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If you don't even know what the word they are using means, it seems awfully silly to assume you know what they are talking about.
I said what it means, it means to worship mary in a legal way.
I'm not assuming anything at all. Look it up.
It doesn't bother them so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I were you.
I sure don't.
 
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III Angeli Nuntius

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III Angeli Nuntius said:
...see also Revelation 12. Who is the "woman" there?
The mother of Jesus, Mary. ...
Really? Then I have some very specific questions for you.

"The Woman" is "clothed with the sun"
"The Woman" is standing with "the moon under her feet"
"The Woman" is wearing "upon her head a crown of twelve stars"

What are the symbols, "sun", "moon", "feet", "head" "crown", "twelve" and "stars" symbolic of in scripture? Please provide those texts.

Additionally, "she" appears "in heaven", even as does "the dragon". Are you saying that the Dragon is also in Heaven [vs 12:3]?

Notice, that "she" is "in Heaven" even before she gives birth to "the man child". " She" is wearing "twelve stars" as a "crown" before "she" gives birth to "the man child".

Later in vs 12:6, it states that after "the man child" was caught up unto the Throne of God, that is ascending, then "the Woman" "flees" "into the wilderness".

When did 'mary' ever flee into the wilderness. She did go down into Egypt, but Egypt is not the Wilderness, as is clearly shown in the OT [Exodus 14:11, etc].

Also, this "wilderness" period is given numerous [7 specifically, and an 8th not so obvious one] times in scripture, all of which refer to the exact same time period, of "a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.", being prophetically calculated to literal years, 1,260 years [Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34; Luke 13:32-33, etc]. This time period is also seen in chiastic structure in Revelation 12:14 "a time, and times, and half a time". See Passages:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][and consider also [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 21:24;p[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"...trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 11:2;p[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"...given unto the Gentiles..."[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]][/FONT]

When did 'mary' do this?

When did the "Dragon" "persecute" "the Woman" after bringing forth and being delivered of "the man child", vs 12:13?

When did 'mary' receive two "wings" of a "great eagle"?

Notice the last passages on "water" being spewed out after "her", and the "earth" helping, and finally even the "remnant" of "her" are persecuted. What is a Remnant, the first or last thing?
 
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