GuardianShua

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Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1. An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a. The home of the dead, beneath the earth. b The god of the underworld. 2. Bible: The state or resting place of the dead: Name used in some modern translations of the New Testament.

She-ol (sheol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] A place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead. Note: In the KJV about half of scriptures are translated as hell, the other half as grave.

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; it then was a place of constant burning of refuge.

Topheth is believed to be a location in Jerusalem, in the Valley of Hinnom, where the Canaanites sacrificed children to the god Moloch by burning them alive.

Isaiah 30:33
Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

Jeremiah 7:31-32
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

Job 27:8
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?

God said you will die. The Serpent said, "you will not surly die." Hell is the Serpent's doctrine. Which god do you follow?

It's a life or death choice. Do you want to live, or do you want to die?
Matthew 16:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

A living "soul" consist of both spirit and body.
Matthew 16:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Judgement day people will be called back into being, having both a body and their spirit.

I have read things before that made me suspicious that the Catholic Church may have tweaked some of the scripture for various reasons, but am unable to prove that personally. No offense, but I will have to have faith that the Bible written as it is now, is true.

Hell and Hades was introduced in order to sell indulgences. Hell and Hades is not an original teaching in Judaism, it was introduced by the Catholics.
 
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GuardianShua

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Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Luke 10:15
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.

Luke 16:23
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Where do you find the word Hades in the Old Testament, you don't.
 
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Lady Bug

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Hell and Hades was introduced in order to sell indulgences. Hell and Hades is not an original teaching in Judaism, it was introduced by the Catholics.
but what about the one verse by Yeshua that said something like, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, for it is better to enter life with only one eye than to have both eyes thrown into hell, or something like that? :confused: what was "hell" referring to then? what was Yeshua referring to in this verse? just curious...did He not speak of eternal punishment? it just doesn't add up :)
 
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Alithis

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A living "soul" consist of both spirit and body.
Matthew 16:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Judgement day people will be called back into being, having both a body and their spirit.



A living "soul" consist of both spirit and body

but that does not mean the spirit ceases to exist
and is death living ..
but then it raises the question of .. what is Life?

G-d is life .

we agree on that i know .

and the first death is to be separated from the body - but once separated how is it then killed? i believe it is killed by being eternally removed from life (being G-d) it is cut off forever .

a horrid state to be in i imagine .. quite hellish even - the opposite to all that is good ,the opposite to all that is LIFE .

we already know that without the messiah we are "Dead in sins" so walking talking breathing and eating in our mortal body is not eternal life .and not existing is not eternal death .
if life is to be reconciled to G-d by the Holy Spirit through the blood of the lamb- then i would think (not know) that death is to remain cut off from G-d - who is life .

lol we are going to get stuck on this perception of life/death thing methinks -
but again ..i'm not saying .. "this is the way it is"-i'm just presently considering it to be the way it is . because thus far - a state of non existence just doesn't make sense to me :D
 
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Avodat

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A friend of mine says he has actually been to hell and knows what it is like. His description certainly sounds as if it is a frightening experience; he is scarred for life. He is a living testimony that people in hell are alive and that it is all about being in a state of permanent suffering.

His visit to hell came about when he discovered what his mother-in-law was really like after the honeymoon. Apparently she had just got a new job - chief test pilot at the local broom factory - regularly coming home with her uniform on, only removing the black hat when indoors, parking her broom in the hallway. Thereafter the experience of sheer hell was just an everyday part of his existence. Always up to his neck in nagging, moaning, complaining, biting remarks, public belittling and other similar attacks. Yes, he sure knows what hell is really about!

You guys have hardly touched on it yet :argh:
 
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GuardianShua

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but what about the one verse by Yeshua that said something like, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, for it is better to enter life with only one eye than to have both eyes thrown into hell, or something like that? :confused: what was "hell" referring to then? what was Yeshua referring to in this verse? just curious...did He not speak of eternal punishment? it just doesn't add up :)
The people who translated our scriptures were not always faithful to the truth. The word Gehenna is given the interpretation Hell twelve times in the NIV bible. In other places in scriptures the Hebrew word Sheol, which means grave, is often given the interpretation "Hell."


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Valley of Hinnom,
Gehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.
Originally, it was believed that this was a location where children were sacrificed to Moloch, hence from the perspective of the authors of the Hebrew Bible, it was deemed to be cursed.
In Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.

In Christ day it was used as a garbage dump where refuse burned day and night. It is parabolic for destruction.

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
 
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GuardianShua

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A living "soul" consist of both spirit and body

but that does not mean the spirit ceases to exist
and is death living ..
but then it raises the question of .. what is Life?

G-d is life .

we agree on that i know .

and the first death is to be separated from the body - but once separated how is it then killed? i believe it is killed by being eternally removed from life (being G-d) it is cut off forever .

a horrid state to be in i imagine .. quite hellish even - the opposite to all that is good ,the opposite to all that is LIFE .

we already know that without the messiah we are "Dead in sins" so walking talking breathing and eating in our mortal body is not eternal life .and not existing is not eternal death .
if life is to be reconciled to G-d by the Holy Spirit through the blood of the lamb- then i would think (not know) that death is to remain cut off from G-d - who is life .

lol we are going to get stuck on this perception of life/death thing methinks -
but again ..i'm not saying .. "this is the way it is"-i'm just presently considering it to be the way it is . because thus far - a state of non existence just doesn't make sense to me :D

Our bodies are mortal, and are spirits are mortal. Only Yahwah can grant immortality.
 
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dnc101

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Hell and Hades was introduced in order to sell indulgences. Hell and Hades is not an original teaching in Judaism, it was introduced by the Catholics.

The early Catholic church certainly took liberties with the gospel. But that doesn't mean Hell is not real. Yeshua and the talmidim may speak allegorically about it, but to me that means something exists about which to speak.

Someone also made the claim it isn't in the TNK. A simple search turned up three pages of references. I'm sure they spoke allegorically as well, and many passages seem to describe Avodat's humorous but poignant example of a "hell on earth." However it might be a good thing to look up all those allegories, TNK and RC also, prayerfully study them and see what they might be describing before making up your mind on the subject.

Dan C
 
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mishkan

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The early Catholic church certainly took liberties with the gospel. But that doesn't mean Hell is not real. Yeshua and the talmidim may speak allegorically about it, but to me that means something exists about which to speak.

Someone also made the claim it isn't in the TNK. A simple search turned up three pages of references. I'm sure they spoke allegorically as well, and many passages seem to describe Avodat's humorous but poignant example of a "hell on earth." However it might be a good thing to look up all those allegories, TNK and RC also, prayerfully study them and see what they might be describing before making up your mind on the subject.

Dan C

I suspect that what your friend meant was "hades" is not in the TNK. There is room to question whether the Hebrew concept of "the grave" (Heb. "Sh'ol") is really equivalent to the Greek notions of the afterlife that we all grew up with as children.

The Greeks created an entire milieu of characters, geography, and events that would be invoked by the term "Hades". The TNK, on the other hand, uses descriptive language like, "the dead know nothing".

Don't be fooled by the fact that translators retrofit the rendering "Hell" into the TNK.
 
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visionary

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but what about the one verse by Yeshua that said something like, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, for it is better to enter life with only one eye than to have both eyes thrown into hell, or something like that? :confused: what was "hell" referring to then? what was Yeshua referring to in this verse? just curious...did He not speak of eternal punishment? it just doesn't add up :)
Ask yourself... would a loving God want you to see or for that matter, for Him to see people suffer for eternity? Can the punishment be eternal in the sense that "they be no more"...
Nahum 1:12 This is what the Lord says:“Although they have allies and are numerous, they will be destroyed and pass away....15 .......No more will the wicked invade you; they will be completely destroyed.

Ezekiel 26:21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
..... You do know about how the wicked will be ashes under our feet...

Malachi 4:3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.
and that is how their punishment is eternal....
 
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dnc101

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I suspect that what your friend meant was "hades" is not in the TNK. There is room to question whether the Hebrew concept of "the grave" (Heb. "Sh'ol") is really equivalent to the Greek notions of the afterlife that we all grew up with as children.

The Greeks created an entire milieu of characters, geography, and events that would be invoked by the term "Hades". The TNK, on the other hand, uses descriptive language like, "the dead know nothing".

Don't be fooled by the fact that translators retrofit the rendering "Hell" into the TNK.

Them Greeks ... they were certainly good at that, what with being schooled in mythology and all where a good imagination is more important than veracity. But the Hebrews still wrote of it, and translators notwithstanding the gist is still there. The key is to remember to read what they say in context.

For example, the phrase you used comes from Ecclesiastes 9:5, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; there is no longer any reward for them, because all memory of them is lost."

Now, taken by itself this could mean a lot of things. The dead are absolutely gone- body, soul and spirit. The dead sleep until the resurrection. The dead are stupid. ...

However, read in context, "1 I applied myself to all of this, sifted through it and concluded that the righteous and the wise, along with their deeds, are in God's hands - a person cannot know whether these people and deeds will be rewarded with love or with hatred; all options are open. 2 Anything can happen to anyone; the same thing can happen to the righteous as to the wicked, to the good and clean and to the unclean, to someone who offers a sacrifice and to someone who doesn't offer a sacrifice; it is the same for a good person as for a sinner, for someone who takes an oath rashly as for someone who fears to take an oath. 3 This is another evil among all those done under the sun, that the same events can occur to anyone. Truly, the human mind is full of evil; and as long as people live, folly is in their hearts; after which they go to be with the dead. 4 For as long as a person is linked with the living, there is hope - better to be a living dog than a dead lion! 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; there is no longer any reward for them, because all memory of them is lost. 6 What they loved, what they hated and what they envied all disappeared long ago, and they no longer have a share in anything done under the sun."

It is clearly comparing life and death in this present physical incarnation only.

One of the study tools I use can look up scriptures in several different translations and compare them, which is helpful. But my favorite button there is the "read in context" button. It's harder for the translators and Greeks to get one past me with that!

Dan C
 
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dnc101

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Ask yourself... would a loving God want you to see or for that matter, for Him to see people suffer for eternity? Can the punishment be eternal in the sense that "they be no more"........ You do know about how the wicked will be ashes under our feet...

and that is how their punishment is eternal....

vis, vis, vis, vis, vis, His love doesn't want it, but His justice demands it. Prov. 3:5, "Trust in ADONAI with all your heart; do not rely on your own understanding." So don't just say He should do what we think, because we'd consider the alternative cruel. Look at what G-d says and trust Him.

LOL, Greeks and interpreters aren't the only ones who bring their understanding and prejudices to the study table. We all do. So don't take my word either (not that you would :p ). I'm not even giving an absolute opinion on the topic (Hell) other than saying there is something there because, allegorically or otherwise it is discussed in scripture! I am saying we should be careful how WE interpret it, and be doubly careful how we tell others to reach conclusions.

So, lets look at your reference:

Malachi 4:3, "You will trample the wicked, they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I take action," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot."

Aaaand we hit the "read in context" button ...,

"1 For the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the proud and evildoers will be stubble; the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot, "and leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But to you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will break out leaping, like calves released from the stall. 3 You will trample the wicked, they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I take action," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot. 4 "Remember the Torah of Moshe my servant, which I enjoined on him at Horev, laws and rulings for all Isra'el. 5 Look, I will send to you Eliyahu the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible Day of ADONAI. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers; otherwise I will come and strike the land with complete destruction."

This is an end times prophecy, and again deals with our corporeal bodies, not our spirits. Maybe it's talking about Armageddon, but not sure. But from looking at it in context, we can all come to a better understanding of what it says as well as research the Armageddon thing for ourselves.

Dan C
 
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Alithis

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Our bodies are mortal, and are spirits are mortal. Only Yahwah can grant immortality.

i understand what you are saying . however it is the spirit that will at the return of the Messiah be clothed in immortality .. this still does not establish whether or not the spirit ceases to exist .

and this verse was recently brought to remembrance where the Yeshua defines eternal "Life" as different from eternal existence separated from G-d when he says

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent
so we see life is to know , be with , have relationship with , dwell in , G-d .

thus it still (for me ) stands to reason that eternal death is to be separated from G-d ..who IS life.
some of the versus you have pasted on the topic themselves use the term "cut off"
 
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GuardianShua

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i understand what you are saying . however it is the spirit that will at the return of the Messiah be clothed in immortality .. this still does not establish whether or not the spirit ceases to exist .

and this verse was recently brought to remembrance where the Yeshua defines eternal "Life" as different from eternal existence separated from G-d when he says


so we see life is to know , be with , have relationship with , dwell in , G-d .

thus it still (for me ) stands to reason that eternal death is to be separated from G-d ..who IS life.
some of the versus you have pasted on the topic themselves use the term "cut off"

If a spirit does not cease to exist, then it is immortal and there is no need for God to give it life as an eternal gift.:doh:
 
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visionary

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vis, vis, vis, vis, vis, His love doesn't want it, but His justice demands it. Prov. 3:5, "Trust in ADONAI with all your heart; do not rely on your own understanding." So don't just say He should do what we think, because we'd consider the alternative cruel. Look at what G-d says and trust Him.

LOL, Greeks and interpreters aren't the only ones who bring their understanding and prejudices to the study table. We all do. So don't take my word either (not that you would :p ). I'm not even giving an absolute opinion on the topic (Hell) other than saying there is something there because, allegorically or otherwise it is discussed in scripture! I am saying we should be careful how WE interpret it, and be doubly careful how we tell others to reach conclusions.

So, lets look at your reference:

Malachi 4:3, "You will trample the wicked, they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I take action," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot."

Aaaand we hit the "read in context" button ...,

"1 For the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the proud and evildoers will be stubble; the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot, "and leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But to you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will break out leaping, like calves released from the stall. 3 You will trample the wicked, they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I take action," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot. 4 "Remember the Torah of Moshe my servant, which I enjoined on him at Horev, laws and rulings for all Isra'el. 5 Look, I will send to you Eliyahu the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible Day of ADONAI. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers; otherwise I will come and strike the land with complete destruction."

This is an end times prophecy, and again deals with our corporeal bodies, not our spirits. Maybe it's talking about Armageddon, but not sure. But from looking at it in context, we can all come to a better understanding of what it says as well as research the Armageddon thing for ourselves.

Dan C
You are making eternal damnation into two separate events... like at dead ... and then at the end... You also are making us out to be beings that are not human... and so this fleshy body is not part of our identity... when God made for us. .. God would not make our bodies immortal if all they were is just outer shells. He would not come in the flesh.. if they are temporary and not worth redeeming... Nor will he resurrect the body unless it is a vital part of who we are...
 
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dnc101

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You are making eternal damnation into two separate events... like at dead ... and then at the end... You also are making us out to be beings that are not human... and so this fleshy body is not part of our identity... when God made for us. .. God would not make our bodies immortal if all they were is just outer shells. He would not come in the flesh.. if they are temporary and not worth redeeming... Nor will he resurrect the body unless it is a vital part of who we are...

I didn't say any of that ... I think you are misunderstanding me.

Let's hit this from another angle. I am going to be cremated. It's all arranged, and I even have the little box they are going to stuff me into. Thing is the size of a modest jewelry box.

For now it just sits on top of my dresser and mocks me. There is a picture frame on top that can stand up, and I told my kids I'm going to get some glow-in-the-dark craft paints and write in it "Immortal, at least until now ..." But the fact is that box will one day have the last laugh in this present reality.

I am not worried though, because I serve an infinite G-d who will, in His own time, reconstruct for me a glorified body and my spirit will inhabit that body. Our humanity as the Creator constructed us is more than just this present corruptible body.

So that really little box doesn't bother me one bit. Now for the unsaved, it is a different story. I was going to put it out as the centerpiece to last years Thanksgiving table as a witness to unsaved loved ones, but my wife ... :mad:

Dan ( ;) ) C
 
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