Patriotism and the Nation-State

David Brider said:

There really are no words for how utterly unlikely that sounds...

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I'm a believer in British/American Israelism.

David Brider said:

I'm not quite sure how that would work. Whatever objective standard, or set of standards, you were to set, only one nation would manage to be "best".

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Best is far more slippery than biggest or busiest, yet there are a half dozen airports in the world that can claim to be the busiest and a half dozen fraternities that lay claim to being the biggest.

David Brider said:

As a liberal, I wouldn't say that patriotism is evil as such (although it's certainly used to justify and support some pretty unpleasant ideologies); I just find it a really bizarre, and ultimately pointless, concept. The notion that I should find a particular country to be in some way special, or good, or better than all others, on the flimsy pretext that it happens to be the one in which I was born and live, seems...strange. I mean, if everybody in every country believes the same, then...there are, IIRC, about 200 countries in the world. So the people in 199 of those countries are wrong, and the people in one of those countries are right. How do we determine which are right and which are wrong? Is there any sort of objective standard we can use to make that sort of judgement? You say, "I support America because we are a right-wing country," but obviously not everybody in America is right wing, so even if it's true to say that America is a right wing country, not everybody in America would support it for precisely that reason. So that's a subjective standard rather than an objective one.

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I'm not a huge patriot but even still, I've never understood patriotism to be a mutually exclusive ideology. I don't think patriots are saying, "Country X is good and therefore all other countries are bad."

You seem to think that patriots are making a mutually exclusive claim. I don't think that's the case. I think patriotism is just having a sense of pride and identity attached to your country. Spaniards are proud to be from Spain not because they think Spain is mutually exclusively the only good country, but because they were born and raised there and feel a sense of identity with the places and cultures associated with Spain.

So there's no need to "objectively" determine which country is the "best" because I don't think that's what patriotism is really about. Of course there are some patriots that will use the term, "We live in the greatest nation in the world." But I personally believe that is just rhetoric used by the likes of politicians and such.

Patriotism in the USA means fervent belief in AngloAmerican superiority/supremacy.
It has been so ever since the first Europeans invaded this country.
This superiority ideology must have begun in Europe since the invaders brought it with them.
In any case, you cannot get more exclusivist than adhering to this belief system.

As Swazi Springs said : America is A [as in one] cultural group. And thereby displayed the common superiority attitude.

Everyone else part of another culture is merely hanging around, making a nuisance of themselves and does NOT belong.
It is perfectly logical that, if the greatest people ever are AngloAmericans [reject classes excluded], then everyone else is second-best or less.
Most non-white peoples are regarded as FAR less.

To me, patriotism is something entirely different from majority society patriotism.
It means treating all peoples as fully human and as equally valuable, which is how Creator Jesus treats all of us, how he treats me.

In order to follow Creator, I cannot buy into the evil values of vindictiveness, revenge, domination and dehumanization of those who are unlike me.
I cannot return the "favor" of dehumanizing those who dehumanize me.
Difficult as it is at times, when so-called superior folks behave ugly towards me, it gives me no right to retaliate by behaving likewise towards them.
As the old adage goes : two wrongs don`t make a right.

Or as the apostle Paul puts it so eloquently in Romans chapter 12.
Verse 18 : "If it is possible, as far as depends on you, live at peace with everyone." And verse 21 : "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." [NIV]
The whole 12th chapter entails exellent instructions on how to live as a true patriot in any country. It sums up how a real patriot`s character and actions ought to be.
My opinion anyway.

nota

oldwiseguy said:

America is the land that God promised to Abraham and his descendants (through the lineage of Isaac, not Ishmael).

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I am an American, and I support its people, land, history, culture, traditions, and values but I don't necessarily support its government.

I respect the original poster's views. Previously having social conservative views (I'm more socially libertarian now, though I retain fiscal conservative views; free enterprise, lower taxes etc), I believed that patriotism and nationalism was a very good thing as it created a more moral, decent and significant society. With that being said, as I grew older I have embraced the idea of individuality over nationality. People are not defined by the country they reside in, but by the compassion and kindness they show to others.

Indeed there are many kind Americans who I have made acquaintance with. There are also Americans who are not so kind. This is the same for ALL countries. If people were defined by their flag, the North Koreans would all be megalomaniacs...yet the bulk of the population are simply poor indoctrinated individuals who rely on the tyrants who exploit them for survival.

Ultimately we should not be bound by our flags. There is nothing wrong about being proud of being part of a country (liberals are wrong in this aspect, although I welcome their efforts in globalisation which has led to more tolerance and free trade). However God created us to be His people. We should be the citizens of His Kingdom. This should apply for ''race'' as well, since the body is only temporary and the spirit has no ''race'' or nationality other than being part of the Lord's Kingdom.

I'm a european and I oppose "my" state and I oppose the European Union.

I'm not loyal to any state. That would be to betray my faith. States does not serve the principle of love. They are apparatuses of power, division and oppression.

Being a patriot is in fact worshiping false gods.

ChristOurCaptain said:

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Why is fulfilled prophecy ridiculous?

David Brider said:

There really are no words for how utterly unlikely that sounds...

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Being British you should be very familiar with British Israelism. Actually the more you study it the more plausible it becomes.

oldwiseguy said:

Being British you should be very familiar with British Israelism.

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Should I? Oh well. I'm not.

Omnia sunt communia said:

I'm not loyal to any state. That would be to betray my faith. States does not serve the principle of love. They are apparatuses of power, division and oppression.

Being a patriot is in fact worshiping false gods.

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oldwiseguy said:

Why is fulfilled prophecy ridiculous?

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It isn't. Your post was.

David Brider said:

Should I? Oh well. I'm not.

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No, you shouldn't.
Two seconds wasted on that nonsense, is two seconds of your life you'll never get back.
Calm calm, and carry on

David Brider said:

Should I? Oh well. I'm not.

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Not surprising. Most who reject the theory don't know anything about it either.

ChristOurCaptain said:

It isn't. Your post was.

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So basically it's ok for the descendants of the tribe of Judah to examine and identify with their prophetic heritage but not so for the descendants of the other tribes? It is this heritage that supports their patriotism, as mine does as well (I'm actually descended from Zebulun and Benjamin but happily live in the land of Manasseh).

I support America as much as I would support a parent or guardian, in that my well-being is dependent upon it. I do not like the politics and, were it up to me, I would change the government to reflect a more 'enlightened' view. But that's why I'm not in charge, and I'm not going to attempt to change something I have no idea how to implement successfully anyway.

It seems that, with each new president, I am disillusioned further. I have no patriotism anymore, but I will not deny it either. Why should America deny that they're better if that is the truth? But it should be mindful of it's current status in the world, so that it's not caught in a lie, either.

I'm Finnish and support the Republic of Finland and our democratically elected representatives because we Finns are vigilant and well educated to vote smart for elected representatives who engage in good governance and investent in keeping us Finns educated and informed to continue to vote smart & guard our democracy and good governence with vigilance.

I also support the European peace and stabilty project called the European Union, because I believe everyone deserves to have what Finland and Finns have.

I'm proud of my country's educational achievements in the past forty years of comprehensive school and the political consensus to reform our education system back then.

I'm also proud of my grandparents' and parents' generations who paid off the war reparations, resettled half million war refugees and rebuilt this country. And not just rebuilt it but turned it into the top democracies and most competitive economies in the world.

I'm not a carte blanche my-country-right-or-wrong-patriot. I'm proud of the smart choices we have made, of our collective achievements, of the things we've got right.

I personally dream of an era in which borders are things of the past, but I see that the limited options this poll provides are already indications that it is not happening any time soon. Whether or not the narrow selection of questions is a result of a capped number of choices, or because the author could not imagine a world without borders, is unknown to me.

LogicDreamer said:

I personally dream of an era in which borders are things of the past, but I see that the limited options this poll provides are already indications that it is not happening any time soon.

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I honestly view this as a good thing, and highly sought after. World peace isn't really the paradise or utopia most people romanticize it to be; it would be a very terrible thing to implement.

Whether or not the narrow selection of questions is a result of a capped number of choices, or because the author could not imagine a world without borders, is unknown to me.

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Perhaps because the issue is not about world peace or unification, but patriotism in regards to the individuals' nation(s); aka, the 'current status' of the world.

lupusFati said:

I honestly view this as a good thing, and highly sought after. World peace isn't really the paradise or utopia most people romanticize it to be; it would be a very terrible thing to implement.

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What is wrong with a unified world? There are so many pleasantries we could achieve if we cease our arbitrary societal disputes. Division is a bad thing for humanity.

lupusFati said:

Perhaps because the issue is not about world peace or unification, but patriotism in regards to the individuals' nation(s); aka, the 'current status' of the world.

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The poll allows us to choose opposition towards our own country. Why can't we oppose the concept of separate states as a whole?

I consider myself patriotic. But then again, I draw a distinction between patriotism and nationalism.