Drawn to Christ?

Oops - I meant dead in sin.

AS for an un saved sinner seeking. As in being the prime mover. I tend to say no but I do hesitate.

1. I think most if not all get some light. Romans 2:14.
2. Many time the Bible tells us to choose. Perhaps this is the push.
3. Many time we have been encouraged to bring unsaved people to church to come under the sound of the gospel. I remember once before I was saved, a minister said to me the more light you have been given the more you will be judged by.

In Oxford street London recently. An outdoor evangelist was pronouncing the usual message before the police moved him on. "Repent and believe". I have herad that all my life.

Romans 1

who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

The Bible says the unsaved can understand and do understand.


If not then how could they "suppress the truth" ?

"25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie,"

How could the exchange what they did not understand ?

Romans says they know there is a God and they suppress that truth. It is their sin that makes them unwilling to repent. Repentance comes when God sovereignly tickles their willers (via regeneration) and they repent.

gmm4j said:

Rom 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

Rom 10:17-18
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

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What does this have to do with what I asked?

drstevej said:

Romans says they know there is a God and they suppress that truth. It is their sin that makes them unwilling to repent. Repentance comes when God sovereignly tickles their willers (via regeneration) and they repent.

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I have never read where regeneration produces repentance, but rather, the other way around.

Ezekiel 18 says this -
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin."
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

Did the elect (house of Israel) have a new heart, by which they repented? No, their new heart came after they repented and cast away their transgressions. If you have ears, listen to the truth of God.

So we see repentance comes before a new heart. Don't fight the word of God, for its truth will not only endure, but it will also defeat any beliefs you might otherwise have.

What repeatedly comes to mind as I have read through this thread is what Deacon Dean has said: "I", "I", "I"....

If I have any part (yes any part) at all in my salvation, then it is not 100% by God's grace. I just scratch my head in bewilderment that it is not understood that the words, "grace", "gift", "not of yourselves", "Chosen", "Predestined in Him," "Granted Repentance", "So that no man can boast"..etc.. are not understood!

Eternal Life is Jesus Himself, not just a "type of life" or a "quality of life". Can't Eternal Life Himself decide who He wants to give Himself to? Even the priests in Aaron's day in the OT had to be called and chosen of God to draw near! NO priest was allowed to draw near without first being called by God. Imagine with me for a moment that one of those priests tried to come near God without being invited by Him! The result scares me.

If a stranger showed up at my front door and said, "Shula, I am choosing you. I am choosing to invite myself into your home!" I'd laugh and say, "Well, I don't know you and I don't remember inviting you!"

Get the picture? How much more so with the Almighty? When I hear people say, "I can", "I am worthy", "I have the ability", "I roused my own faith"., "I chose", "I see".. it truly scares and bewilders me. This is not what Jesus/God taught. Blessed are you when you realize you are utterly blind! Blessed are you when you realize you are totally helpless without your Head, Jesus!

Jesus never came to say that those who "already see and those who already have faith and those "who can" are blessed." It's the opposite. There is no "I" in the gospel of God's Grace. And yet, no matter how much this is preached, it seems to be hidden.

We "inherit" Jesus (Eternal Life)... we don't earn Jesus (Eternal Life). If it's an inheritance, "I" didn't have to work for it, it's given freely. If my sons inherit something from me, did they work for it? Yes or no?

Inherit and wage are two different things entirely. Did Jesus, The Son, have to "work" to be God's Son? Yes or no? If we are in Jesus, as God's sons and daughters, neither do we have to work to be a son or daughter! The "works" we do are a result of being a son or daughter, by God's grace.

gmm4j said:

Be careful what you say...

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Of course Salvation is mine NOW that Jesus has given it to me FIRST.
It wasn't mine until He gave it. What is His is now mine, by His choosing and by His grace, so I can rightly say it was the Lord's salvation to me and now is mine. Not the other way around.

Please address the rest of my post? Rather than one sentence?

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day,

Yiou have a bad really bad translation of John 6:44-45:

män-thä'-nō is never ever translated "listened" I am not sure what translation this is I have check all 10 that I have.... Including the JW translation.

In Him,

Bill

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What's so bad about it? The New American Bible (not the same as the NASB) renders it that way, and several others handle it similarly.

ForHisGlory60 said:

Are we going to start sub-dividing the Bible into sections that only apply to these people, another section that only applies to those people? These verses only apply to the Jews, these other verses are only for the Twelve (implying that they have no relevancy to us), etc. etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

If you have to divide your Bible up like that to make your theology work, there's something wrong with your theology!

What part of the Bible applies to all of us? I say it either all does, or none of it does.

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Given that choice, NONE. The letter kills, the Spirit brings life.

DeaconDean said:

Good question.

If God began a work, and only after He found out it could be resisted, would God cease to be omniscience?

And also, doesn't that unermind what scriptre teaches:

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" -Phil. 1:6 (KJV)

If God starts something, won't He see it through to completion?

Call me stupid.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Does this mean Word-Faith theology is correct when it interprets 3 John 2 as a guarantee of health and wealth?

Shulamite said:

What repeatedly comes to mind as I have read through this thread is what Deacon Dean has said: "I", "I", "I"....

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I've only had patience to skim the thread. I have not really noticed that the "I's" have it, so to speak. I've noticed one poster with a Methodist icon unfortunately misrepresenting Arminian (including Wesleyan) beliefs. And I've noticed DD repeatedly slandering Arminians by lying about our view of "faith" and "grace."

If I have any part (yes any part) at all in my salvation, then it is not 100% by God's grace. I just scratch my head in bewilderment that it is not understood that the words, "grace", "gift", "not of yourselves",

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If I hand you a check for $1000, does the fact that you accept it make it no longer a "gift" that is "100% grace" and "not of yourself"?

If you see someone drowning and jump into the water and pull them to shore, does the fact that they don't fight you off mean that their rescue is not a "gift," "100% by (your) grace," "not of (them)selves"?

"Chosen", "Predestined in Him,"

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Many of us see those "in Him" bits as teaching corporate election. Christ was elected, and those of us who by faith become united to Him are thus elected or chosen.

"Granted Repentance", "So that no man can boast"..etc.. are not understood!

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I will "grant" that the "granted repentance" verse most naturally fits the Calvinist paradigm.

The "boasting" thing is irrelevant. It alludes to Eph. 2, which specifically says that WORKS would be a basis for boasting, and Arminians universally agree that we neither gain nor retain salvation by means of "works," but only by faith. But many Calvinists are unable to accept that our understanding of faith does not in itself equate to a "work," which notion we find baffling.

Eternal Life is Jesus Himself, not just a "type of life" or a "quality of life". Can't Eternal Life Himself decide who He wants to give Himself to? Even the priests in Aaron's day in the OT had to be called and chosen of God to draw near! NO priest was allowed to draw near without first being called by God. Imagine with me for a moment that one of those priests tried to come near God without being invited by Him! The result scares me.

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I haven't read those texts for a while, so excuse me if I'm rusty. Wasn't it the case that they were "called and chosen" automatically because of their lineage? IOW, they were in a sense "in Aaron," and their election and vocation was "in him."

If a stranger showed up at my front door and said, "Shula, I am choosing you. I am choosing to invite myself into your home!" I'd laugh and say, "Well, I don't know you and I don't remember inviting you!"

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And the Arminian would say that the Spirit would go first -- prevenient grace -- to make the introduction (drawing, convincing, enlightening), but would still leave to you the choice to receive the "Stranger" with His gifts.

Get the picture? How much more so with the Almighty? When I hear people say, "I can", "I am worthy", "I have the ability", "I roused my own faith"., "I chose", "I see".. it truly scares and bewilders me.

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You heard most of that as slander against Arminians from Calvinists, very little from Arminians themselves.

This is not what Jesus/God taught. Blessed are you when you realize you are utterly blind! Blessed are you when you realize you are totally helpless without your Head, Jesus!

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Jesus never came to say that those who "already see and those who already have faith and those "who can" are blessed." It's the opposite. There is no "I" in the gospel of God's Grace. And yet, no matter how much this is preached, it seems to be hidden.

We "inherit" Jesus (Eternal Life)... we don't earn Jesus (Eternal Life). If it's an inheritance, "I" didn't have to work for it, it's given freely. If my sons inherit something from me, did they work for it? Yes or no?

Inherit and wage are two different things entirely. Did Jesus, The Son, have to "work" to be God's Son? Yes or no? If we are in Jesus, as God's sons and daughters, neither do we have to work to be a son or daughter! The "works" we do are a result of being a son or daughter, by God's grace.

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Arminians heartily agree.

gmm4j said:

It looks to me and to everyone else that You are involved in YOUR salvation. Me, me, me. Mine, mine, mine.

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I believe you know what I am referring to and are making this much more difficult than it has to be and are twisting my words to make them fit your POV.
Jesus is only mine if He chooses to give Himself to me. If Salvation belonged to me originally as my own choice, then I wouldn't be in need to receive anything!

We are co-heirs with Jesus. What is His as the Head becomes mine as well by inheritance since I am His body. The body receives only what the Head gives. If I make a choice for Him "of my doing and initiative", then please tell me how I inherited anything? You don't work or choose an inheritance or a gift, it's given. You are on the receiving end.

Salvation is of the Lord, it's His. He can give it to whomever He wills and chooses.The scriptures state that what Jesus has is "given" of His choice to His bride. The body does not "take" from the Head. The head gives "first".

The only reason Salvation is ours is because Jesus chose to give us Himself. The order of events is what is relevant here. Salvation is NOT mine apart from Jesus. The only reason I responded to Him is because He came after me first.

Even the Son said He could do nothing apart from the Father. All authority as been "given" to Him. So, how can we pridefully say anything is ours with God unless He gives it of His will?

Jesus has, then Jesus gives. It only becomes YOURS if He chooses to give it.

Question: I'm going to twist scripture for a moment, down below, and I need you to tell me what you think of it, okay?

1.) "Shula chose Jesus, Jesus did not choose Shula
2.) I loved God first and that's why He loves me.
3.) I went seeking after the Shepherd, He didn't seek me first
4.) I am the author and finisher of my own faith
5.) I worked for my inheritance and gift

All that you are, all that you understand, all that you have with Him all that you will do for Him is OF Him, 100%. What we disagree on is the "order" in which all this took place. God initiates, we respond and receive.

gmm4j said:

The Calvinist version:
"He who has been given a special inward call, which is only to the elect, let him hear what the Spirit has to say."

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Not quite , the General Call goes out indiscriminately , whosoever will , God calls upon all hearers to repent and believe the good news .

The inward call is Jesus speaking the word of power , when Christ called certain individuals they just dropped everything and followed Him !

gmm4j said:

Oh, that must mean that He spoke a special way to them and not to others (like those in his own hometown). It certainly couldn't mean that His words are spirit and life and some just responded differently. That just couldn't possibly be. Now, I see - it all makes sense - thanks for clearing that up.

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However you wish to describe it, sarcastically or with serious intent, you are still describing an internal call. A call that others don't hear.

Do you think that sarcasm becomes a Christian? Can you show me a time in the Bible where Christ reacted sarcastically?

gmm4j said:

I am not describing a second type of call. Scripture doesn't either. Same call, different response.

Oh, and sarcasm does at times become a Christian. Couldn't think of a time when Jesus reacted sarcastically but Paul certainly did, and he was inspired to write it.

1 Cor 4:8
Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kings-and that without us!

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And so you put yourself on the same level as Paul? At least Paul, most of the time, spoke sincerely. I haven't seen a response of yours yet that was sincere.