Genesis 50:20

Hammster

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You may say it isn't about decrees, but it ultimately comes down to it.

Play nice now.

Then start a thread about Gen 50:20 and decrees. That isn't what this thread is about.
 
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elman

elman
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You planned evil against me; God planned it for good to bring about the present result — the survival of many people. (Genesis 50:20 HCSB)

How was God able to arrange to have Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery (which was a sin) and not violate their free will?
Who did the planning here God or man? Was God's plan based on what man would plan? You seem to assume it was based on what God would cause them to plan, but that is not what it says.
 
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Hammster

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Who did the planning here God or man? Was God's plan based on what man would plan? You seem to assume it was based on what God would cause them to plan, but that is not what it says.

Reconcile it for us then.
 
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Hammster

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I see man and not God planning an evil act. I also see God knowing what they were going to do and using it to bring about a good result through His own planning concerning the event.

That's great. Thanks for that. It's not what the text says, but appreciate your input.
 
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motherprayer

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I see man and not God planning an evil act. I also see God knowing what they were going to do and using it to bring about a good result through His own planning concerning the event.

But, um. How did God use what they did (the evil) for good without violating free will?
 
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elman

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But, um. How did God use what they did (the evil) for good without violating free will?
How do you see God using what they did for good as violating free will? I suspect you and I are not talking about the same thing when we talk about free will.
 
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Hammster

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They text says there was planning by the men. It does not say God caused the men to plan what they did.

It says the very act that they planned for evil, God planned for good. You're reading into the text something that isn't there (your tradition).
 
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elman

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It says the very act that they planned for evil, God planned for good. You're reading into the text something that isn't there (your tradition).
Yes they planned, not God, but they. That is there. It does not say God caused the man to plan what he did. I think you are the one reading into the text something that is not there.
 
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Hammster

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Yes they planned, not God, but they. That is there. It does not say God caused the man to plan what he did. I think you are the one reading into the text something that is not there.

No, it says they both (God and the brothers) planned the exact same thing. One for good. The others for evil. It DOESN'T say that God took their lemons and made lemonade.
 
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ptomwebster

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You planned evil against me; God planned it for good to bring about the present result — the survival of many people. (Genesis 50:20 HCSB)

How was God able to arrange to have Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery (which was a sin) and not violate their free will?


Ham, where did you get the idea that the brothers "sinned" when they sold Joseph into slavery? Where is it written that selling someone into slavery was a sin at that time or are you just reading that into the story?
 
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Hammster

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Ham, where did you get the idea that the brothers "sinned" when they sold Joseph into slavery? Where is it written that selling someone into slavery was a sin at that time or are you just reading that into the story?

The brothers thought it was sin. Joseph thought it was sin. But you don't? Wow.
 
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JackSparrow

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If it helps any, here is John Calvin's commentary.

20. "Ye thought evil against me." Joseph well considers (as we have
said) the providence of God; so that he imposes it on himself as a
compulsory law, not only to grant pardon, but also to exercise
beneficence. And although we have treated at large on this subjects in
the forty-fifth chapter, yet it will be useful also to repeat something
on it now. In the first place, we must notice this difference in his
language: for whereas, in the former passage, Joseph, desiring to soothe
the grief, and to alleviate the fear of his brethren, would cover their
wickedness by every means which ingenuity could suggest; he now corrects
them a little more openly and freely; perhaps because he is offended
with their disingenousness. Yet he holds to the same principle as
before. Seeing that, by the secret counsel of God, he was led into
Egypt, for the purpose of preserving the life of his brethren, he must
devote himself to this object, lest he should resist God. He says, in
fact, by his action, "Since God has deposited your life with me, I
should be engaged in war against him, if I were not to be the faithful
dispenser of the grace which he had committed to my hands." Meanwhile,
he skillfully distinguishes between the wicked counsels of men, and the
admirable justice of God, by so ascribing the government of all things
to God, as to preserve the divine administration free from contracting
any stain from the vices of men. The selling of Joseph was a crime
detestable for its cruelty and perfidy; yet he was not sold except by
the decree of heaven. For neither did God merely remain at rest, and by
conniving for a time, let loose the reins of human malice, in order that
afterwards he might make use of this occasion; but, at his own will, he
appointed the order of acting which he intended to be fixed and certain.
Thus we may say with truth and propriety, that Joseph was sold by the
wicked consent of his brethren, and by the secret providence of God. Yet
it was not a work common to both, in such a sense that God sanctioned
anything connected with or relating to their wicked cupidity: because
while they are contriving the destruction of their brother, God is
effecting their deliverance from on high. Whence also we conclude, that
there are various methods of governing the world. This truly must be
generally agreed, that nothing is done without his will; because he both
governs the counsels of men, and sways their wills and turns their
efforts at his pleasure, and regulates all events: but if men undertake
anything right and just, he so actuates and moves them inwardly by his
Spirit, that whatever is good in them, may justly be said to be received
from him: but if Satan and ungodly men rage, he acts by their hands in
such an inexpressible manner, that the wickedness of the deed belongs to
them, and the blame of it is imputed to them. For they are not induced
to sin, as the faithful are to act aright, by the impulse of the Spirit,
but they are the authors of their own evil, and follow Satan as their
leader. Thus we see that the justice of God shines brightly in the midst
of the darkness of our iniquity. For as God is never without a just
cause for his actions, so men are held in the chains of guilt by their
own perverse will. When we hear that God frustrates the wicked
expectations, and the injurious desires of men, we derive hence no
common consolation. Let the impious busy themselves as they please, let
them rage, let them mingle heaven and earth; yet they shall gain nothing
by their ardor; and not only shall their impetuosity prove ineffectual,
but shall be turned to an issue the reverse of that which they intended,
so that they shall promote our salvation, though they do it reluctantly.
So that whatever poison Satan produces, God turns it into medicine for
his elect. And although in this place God is said to have "meant it unto
good," because contrary to expectation, he had educed a joyful issue out
of beginnings fraught with death: yet, with perfect rectitude and
justice, he turns the food of reprobates into poison, their light into
darkness, their table into a snare, and, in short, their life into
death. If human minds cannot reach these depths, let them rather
suppliantly adore the mysteries they do not comprehend, than, as vessels
of clay, proudly exalt themselves against their Maker.
"To save much people alive." Joseph renders his office subservient to
the design of God's providence; and this sobriety is always to be
cultivated, that every one may behold, by faith, God from on high
holding the helm of the government of the world, and may keep himself
within the bounds of his vocation; and even, being admonished by the
secret judgments of God, may descend into himself, and exhort himself to
the discharge of his duty: and if the reason of this does not
immediately appear, we must still take care that we do not fly in
confused and erratic circuits, as fanatical men are wont to do. What
Joseph says respecting his being divinely chosen "to save much people
alive," some extend to the Egyptians. Without condemning such an
extension, I would rather restrict the application of the words to the
family of Jacob; for Joseph amplifies the goodness of God by this
circumstance, that the seed of the Church would be rescued from
destruction by his labour. And truly, from these few men, whose seed
would otherwise have been extinct before their descendants had been
multiplied, that vast multitude sprang into being, which God soon
afterwards raised up.
 
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