motherprayer
Elisha
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Genesis 50:20
- Thread starter Hammster
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JackSparrow
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OK Ham. Ill byte - not that I am a libertine free willier.
Joseph's brothers action's were pre planned by God. Fine. How does this make them NOT puppets ?
Why did God not just give Joseph a ticket by first class camel to a seaside resort in Egypt ? Save a lot of effort.
I am obviously being flippant but I am sure you see my point. Are we just puppets or not ? What do you say ?
I'll fire first if it helps. I believe God allows man - Joseph's brothers - to make there own mistakes to which God uses to his own ends.
Joseph's brothers action's were pre planned by God. Fine. How does this make them NOT puppets ?
Why did God not just give Joseph a ticket by first class camel to a seaside resort in Egypt ? Save a lot of effort.
I am obviously being flippant but I am sure you see my point. Are we just puppets or not ? What do you say ?
I'll fire first if it helps. I believe God allows man - Joseph's brothers - to make there own mistakes to which God uses to his own ends.
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True, but that doesn't address the text. But let me ask this...can God stop us from sinning?
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JackSparrow
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God can do anything, so yes he can. He might stop us sometimes. If a president got a bit fed up and decided to press the red button, I have no doubt God would intervene.
Does God always stop us from sinning ? I would say no, not always. In fact hardly ever - IMO.
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So we agree that God can restrain us. Did Joseph's brothers want to kill him?
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JackSparrow
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Genesis
37:19[bless and do not curse]Here comes that dreamer! they said to each other. 20[bless and do not curse]Come now, lets kill him and throw him into one of these cisterns and say that a ferocious animal devoured him. Then well see what comes of his dreams.
21[bless and do not curse]When Reuben heard this, he tried to rescue him from their hands. Lets not take his life, he said. 22[bless and do not curse]Dont shed any blood. Throw him into this cistern here in the wilderness, but dont lay a hand on him. Reuben said this to rescue him from them and take him back to his father
Did all except Reuben want to kill him because they were predestined that way or by free will ?
What drove the will ? Gets back to the same problem if God predestined their jealousy.
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This isn't a thread about predestination. You may start one if you'd like, and I will participate.
Keep in mind that the thread is about how both God and the brothers planned the same thing, but it was a sin for them, but not for God.
The brothers wanted him dead. They ended up selling him into slavery. Is it possible that God restrained their hatred enough that slavery was better than death?
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JackSparrow
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Possible yes. probable ? who knows.
Did they plan the same thing ? The brothers planned murder. If we go with God decreeing all things it could be argued that God did not plan the same otherwise it would of infallibly happened.
Those who are against the puppet show would go with finite free will on the part of man. Which in no way precludes God intervening as and when he wants to.
Hammster. How about listing your conclusions. I.e the reasons for the story. What is the point of it etc. If your conclusion is God reigns supreme, I doubt if any one would disagree.
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This isn't a thread about decrees. If you want to start a thread about that, I'll participate.
Even if it results in man committing a sin that God wants him to commit?
Read "Trusting God" by Jerry Bridges. I think you'll get the answer you're looking for.
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JackSparrow
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I don't think God wants man to commit any sin. Just my opinion though.
? I did not have a question. It's your thread !
Is this you be patronizing.
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God wanting me to commit sin is against everything He states in His word. Does God go against His own word? Is God two-faced or does He speak with a forked-tongue?
Suppose God has ordained me to commit adultery tonight. First, He is going to fight my will to not commit adultery. I have decided within my heart that I will not commit such horrendous sins against God. Then God is going to have to tempt me to sin, by bringing lewd thoughts to my mind, bringing people before me which have the inclination to lure me to their bed, and so forth.
Really now, does God do this to His own? What unspeakable atrocities God would commit to tempt me to sin. Is this the God you want to portray to me? Well, I outright deny such actions of a loving, holy God. This is an attempt to not take responsibility of one's own thoughts and actions, by 'blaming' their sins elsewhere.
What an awful accusation to make against God. I WILL NOT blame God or His decrees for my shortcomings. I take full responsibility for any sin I commit, and trust God to help me cast them away.
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Not ultimately. But God can withhold His influence and allow man to sin greatly, or exercise influence to lessen his sin, depending on what God wants to accomplish.
I thought that was the type of response you were looking for since you referred me to William Carey when I asked a direct question in your thread.
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If you want to actually join in the WHOLE conversation, then maybe that would prevent posts like this that have nothing to do with what we are talking about. It might save you some embarrassment.
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Really Hamm, I pulled a quote of yours from this thread. And I responded accordingly. I thought this thread was about God decreeing man to sin. If you like, you may compare what I said to Joseph's brothers; it makes no difference to me.
BTW, I am in no way embarrassed by what I say. Sorry.
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Really Hamm, I pulled a quote of yours from this thread. And I responded accordingly. I thought this thread was about God decreeing man to sin. If you like, you may compare what I said to Joseph's brothers; it makes no difference to me.
BTW, I am in no way embarrassed by what I say. Sorry.
Pulled a quote out of context. You saw something and made a knee jerk post. I had already stated that it WASN'T about decrees. If you want to discuss decrees, start another thread.
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Are you saying God planned the same evil as Joseph's brothers?
Or, are you saying God took the evil plans of his brothers and planned it for good?
I'll wait...
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I'm agreeing with scripture that what they planned for evil, God planned for good. I'm trying to reconcile the statement.
No, because all that does is move it back a step. Somewhere God has to intervene. Lots of somewheres, actually.
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