2 Thess 2 confirms Rev 12 - rapture before antichrist

Handmaid for Jesus said:

I don't get your point. If we are trying to establish how long the church is protected from the wrath of God using Noah in the ark as a type, what point are you trying to make?

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That would be the point. Jesus gives two examples of His coming. One like the days of Noah. Noah is shut in the ark 7 days before the flood. And those that are in the world are eating and drinking and marrying until the day that Noah enters the ark. This would represent the church in a pre trib rapture before the tribulation and 7 years before wrath.

The second example Jesus gives is like the Days of Lot. The day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. That would be the second harvest when the elect (Israel) is raptured.

Choose Wisely said:

That would be the point. Jesus gives two examples of His coming. One like the days of Noah. Noah is shut in the ark 7 days before the flood. And those that are in the world are eating and drinking and marrying until the day that Noah enters the ark. This would represent the church in a pre trib rapture before the tribulation and 7 years before wrath.

The second example Jesus gives is like the Days of Lot. The day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. That would be the second harvest when the elect (Israel) is raptured.

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I cannot say that I follow what you are saying, but, maybe it will become clearer later. Thanks.

Choose Wisely said:

That would be the point. Jesus gives two examples of His coming. One like the days of Noah. Noah is shut in the ark 7 days before the flood. And those that are in the world are eating and drinking and marrying until the day that Noah enters the ark. This would represent the church in a pre trib rapture before the tribulation and 7 years before wrath.

The second example Jesus gives is like the Days of Lot. The day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. That would be the second harvest when the elect (Israel) is raptured.

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That is a total imposition on the scripture as I read it. The only point Jesus is making in these passages is the suddenness of His coming. This idea about pre trib rapture just isn't there nor is anything about tribulation. This is THE LAST DAY!

Luke 17:20-29:
20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said,“The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
22 And He said to the disciples,“The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.
23 They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them.
24 For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.
25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

This is about how fast Jesus coming will happen. There won't be time for anything, before you know it He's here!!! People will be doing whatever...but the next thing they know, Jesus is here!

Bethwhite said in post 111:

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

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Rev. 12:10's first half is said not because Jesus' 2nd coming & the rapture & marriage of the church have occurred by that time, for those things won't occur until Rev. 19:7-21, immediately after the tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8). Instead, the 2nd half of Rev. 12:10 explains why the first half is said: because Satan the accuser of the church will have been cast down out of heaven to the earth for good by that time, which will be mid-tribulation.

Rev. 12:11's first half shows that those in the church overcome Satan spiritually by the blood of Jesus & by their preaching of his truth, not by being raptured alive into the 3rd heaven. For the 2nd half of Rev. 12:11 shows that the church overcomes Satan spiritually even by dying.

Those in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at the mid-tribulation time of Rev. 12:12, 13:6 will be those who have died (cf. Philip. 1:21,23, 2 Cor. 5:8, Rev. 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1,4-5, TR; 12:5b).

vinsight4u said in post 112:

Daniel 12 gives us specific limits as to how many days come at certain points in Daniel 11. One is 1290 days - at the end of the time Daniel will stand in his lot. Daniel is still resting.

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Dan. 12:11-12 (and Rev. 16:15) could mean that exactly 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31), Jesus' second coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-8, 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the seven vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 11:15,19, 15:5-16:1), and if the first six vials will be poured out over thirty days, then the sixth vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Dan. 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Dan. 12:12/Rev. 16:15 could be given, after the sixth vial has been poured out (Rev. 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' second coming occurs on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the armies of the world to Armageddon (Rev. 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' second coming occurs and they're defeated (Zech. 14:2-21, Rev. 19:19-21).

ebedmelech said in post 113:

The Last Day is simply the LAST "Day of the Lord" judgment.

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Regarding the judgment at the last "day", in verses like Jn. 6:39-40 and Jn. 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (for example, see the Greek of 2 Cor. 6:2, 2 Pet. 3:8, and Jn. 8:56). Jn. 6:39-48 and Jn. 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Rev. 20:5).

When Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Cor. 15:21-23, Rev. 20:5, Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; Mt. 25:19-30, 2 Cor. 5:10, Lk. 12:45-48). The bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for a thousand years (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11, Zech 14:3-21). Only sometime after the thousand years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39) will the rest of the dead be bodily resurrected (Rev. 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

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Also, regarding the latter or "last" days (plural), they began in the first century A.D. with Jesus' first coming (Heb. 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last "days" are the last three roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Pet. 3:8) of the seven roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 B.C. to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Rev. 21:1) in roughly 3,000 A.D.. So the last "days" are the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6), which will be part of the last roughly 1,000-year "day".

ebedmelech said in post 113:

Daniel limits nothing. He was told in Daniel 12 that the prophecy would be sealed up until the end.

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Dan. 12:7's "time, times, and an half" is referred to in Rev. 12:14, and Revelation is an unsealed book (Rev. 22:10). So the meaning of Dan. 12:7's "time, times, and an half" was unsealed by the time Revelation was written in the first century A.D.. Therefore, "the end" in Dan. 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Heb. 9:26 (see also 1 Cor. 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' first coming and his crucifixion for our sins. So Dan. 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what's going to happen in our future by seeing how much these two books help to explain each other (cf. Isa. 28:9-10, 1 Cor. 2:13).

Also, Dan. 12:6,8 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that the time of the end in Dan. 12:4,9 won't begin until the "time, times, and an half" in Dan. 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Dan. 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Dan. 12:7 refers to only the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from four different angles in Rev. chs. 11-14 (Rev. 11:2b-3, 12:6,14, 13:5,7, 14:9-13), the detailed events of which remain unfulfilled today. And Dan. 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" that Daniel had just been told about in Dan. 11:2-12:3, which also include detailed events which remain unfulfilled today (Dan. 11:31-12:3), including the church's resurrection into immortality (Dan. 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Dan. 11:45-12:3, Rev. 19:20-20:6), whereas Dan. 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the first century A.D. (Heb. 9:26, 1 Cor. 10:11b).

Choose Wisely said in post 116:

There will be a pre trib rapture and you are correct, it will not be the main harvest. However, it will not be the first fruits. It will be a harvest....just not the main harvest.

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The three harvests: firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, could typify the three resurrections: the past, firstfruits resurrection of Jesus only (1 Cor. 15:20,23), the future resurrection of the entire church at his 2nd coming (1 Cor. 15:23,52, 1 Thes. 4:15-16, Rev. 19:7-20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 and right before the millennium (Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6), and then the great white throne judgment resurrection (Rev. 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-15, Ezek. chs. 38-39).

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Choose Wisely said in post 104:

And yet we see 24 elders with crowns after Rev 4:1 and then we see the church in heaven for the marriage supper.

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Regarding Rev. 4:4's 24 elders, they could be 24 chief angels, who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Rev. 4:8-11, Isa. 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Heb. 9:23-24), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chr. 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel & 12 apostles (Rev. 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Rev. 5:8-9, the 24 elders & the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Rev. 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Rev. 8:4). So in Rev. 5:9, the 24 elders & the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as human singers on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the words of a female millworker).

Choose Wisely said in post 104:

And yet we see 24 elders with crowns after Rev 4:1 and then we see the church in heaven for the marriage supper.

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Regarding "with crowns", the 24 elders wearing crowns (Rev. 4:4) doesn't forbid them from being angels, for if even the weird locust-like beings & the devil can wear crowns (Rev. 9:7, 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Choose Wisely said in post 104:

And yet we see 24 elders with crowns after Rev 4:1 and then we see the church in heaven for the marriage supper.

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Regarding "we see the church in heaven for the marriage supper", that's not until post-trib, for the reasons given in the "marriage" part of post 82.

Choose Wisely said in post 104:

The tribulation is over at the sun moon stars event of Rev 6. Then begins the wrath of God.

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Nothing requires that, as was shown in post 57.

Choose Wisely said in post 104:

Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood just as the Church is caught up 7 years before destruction.

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Regarding "Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood", see the "7 days" part of post 81.

Regarding "the Church is caught up 7 years before destruction", that isn't true because of the reasons given in the "No scripture teaches that" part of post 81.

ebedmelech;62526451]

That is a total imposition on the scripture as I read it. The only point Jesus is making in these passages is the suddenness of His coming. This idea about pre trib rapture just isn't there nor is anything about tribulation. This is THE LAST DAY!

Luke 17:20-29:
20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said,“The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
22 And He said to the disciples,“The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.
23 They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them.
24 For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.
25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

This is about how fast Jesus coming will happen. There won't be time for anything, before you know it He's here!!! People will be doing whatever...but the next thing they know, Jesus is here

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There is a reason that Noah is in the ark for 7 days before destruction comes. There is a reason that people eat, drink and marry UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERS THE ARK.

The day of the son of man will be like lightning flashing. There will come a time when you will want to see ONE of these days. You will probably want to see him pre trib. There will be others that want to see him pre wrath.

The scripture says what it says. I suggest that you study the Jewish feasts if you want to know what will happen. You might even learn the parable of the fig tree.

Bible2 said:

Regarding the judgment at the last "day", in verses like Jn. 6:39-40 and Jn. 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (for example, see the Greek of 2 Cor. 6:2, 2 Pet. 3:8, and Jn. 8:56). Jn. 6:39-48 and Jn. 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Rev. 20:5).

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I will hold to how the context applies it. That would be based on how Jesus says it "on THE last day" which the structure makes it finite. When you refer to those other passages, it obvious it's not a 24 hour period. Jesus said "the last day" 4 times...I think that means "the last day" which ends this world and begins eternity.

Bible2 said:

When Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Cor. 15:21-23, Rev. 20:5, Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; Mt. 25:19-30, 2 Cor. 5:10, Lk. 12:45-48). The bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for a thousand years (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11, Zech 14:3-21). Only sometime after the thousand years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39) will the rest of the dead be bodily resurrected (Rev. 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

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I hold that Gog and Magog were "regions", nothing today even resembles that as it is vastly different.

Your idea that the resurrection is only the church falls on it's face because it's obvious there is one resurrection on the last day. You have to make the correlation. Paul says we all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. He doesn't make this distinction of a "judgment of believers", and a "judgment of the unbelievers". Christ will be the judge of all, and His judgment will stand. He said HE WILL SEPARATE THE SHEEP FROM THE GOATS.

The 1000 years are NOT literal but figurative of Christ reign through the church. Perfect 1000's represent completness

Bible2 said:

Also, regarding the latter or "last" days (plural), they began in the first century A.D. with Jesus' first coming (Heb. 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last "days" are the last three roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Pet. 3:8) of the seven roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 B.C. to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Rev. 21:1) in roughly 3,000 A.D.. So the last "days" are the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6), which will be part of the last roughly 1,000-year "day".

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Indeed there are "last days" because you had 1260 days that the gospel would be preached in Jerusalem by Christ, as well as the 1260 days of the church preaching from Jerusalem where it was birthed. So "last days is proper.

Where you make days 1000 years...I don't see. Peter makes a COMPARISON of 1000 years AS a day TO GOD. It's not given to us as a way to measure time. It means God is outside of time, so we shouldn't try to time God AT ALL!

Bible2 said:

Dan. 12:7's "time, times, and an half" is referred to in Rev. 12:14, and Revelation is an unsealed book (Rev. 22:10). So the meaning of Dan. 12:7's "time, times, and an half" was unsealed by the time Revelation was written in the first century A.D.. Therefore, "the end" in Dan. 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Heb. 9:26 (see also 1 Cor. 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' first coming and his crucifixion for our sins. So Dan. 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what's going to happen in our future by seeing how much these two books help to explain each other (cf. Isa. 28:9-10, 1 Cor. 2:13).

Also, Dan. 12:6,8 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that the time of the end in Dan. 12:4,9 won't begin until the "time, times, and an half" in Dan. 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Dan. 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Dan. 12:7 refers to only the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from four different angles in Rev. chs. 11-14 (Rev. 11:2b-3, 12:6,14, 13:5,7, 14:9-13), the detailed events of which remain unfulfilled today. And Dan. 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" that Daniel had just been told about in Dan. 11:2-12:3, which also include detailed events which remain unfulfilled today (Dan. 11:31-12:3), including the church's resurrection into immortality (Dan. 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Dan. 11:45-12:3, Rev. 19:20-20:6), whereas Dan. 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the first century A.D. (Heb. 9:26, 1 Cor. 10:11b).

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Daniel's prophecy was sealed, and clearly there was information Daniel requested that he was not privy to. It's right there in the passage. Jesus began to break the seals of Daniel's prophecy when He gave the Olivet discourse.

John makes it clear in Revelation those seals where broken by Jesus.

Choose Wisely said:

ebedmelech;62526451]
There is a reason that Noah is in the ark for 7 days before destruction comes. There is a reason that people eat, drink and marry UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERS THE ARK.

The day of the son of man will be like lightning flashing. There will come a time when you will want to see ONE of these days. You will probably want to see him pre trib. There will be others that want to see him pre wrath.

The scripture says what it says. I suggest that you study the Jewish feasts if you want to know what will happen. You might even learn the parable of the fig tree.

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So why is it the scripture doesn't even hint at anything but the judgment in those situations???? Because both are JUDGMENTS. The unbelievers were caught in judgment in both cases.

The 1st world was judged when God shut Noah up in the ark!

Sodom and Gomorrah was JUDGED the second Lot's family got outside of the city.

What a pity you impose a rapture and a tribulation, when the fact is the minute God's people got out JUDGMENT BEGAN.

That's how it will be on the last day!!! Jesus will come, resurrection will occur and judgment begins...that's the whole point!

Oh...and I understand the Jewish feast...perhaps you don't.

*Passover - Jesus the Lamb

*Unleavened Bread - purification from sin

*Firstfruits - Jesus, firstborn from the dead

*The church has been being harvested since Pentecost when Peter preached (ingathering/Pentecost)

*The Feast of Tabernacles (God dwelling with his people)

*Feast of Trumpets - the resurrection

I have a handle on it....

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This verse is often taken beyond what it implies. The wrath of God is in the world right now, yet it does not touch the saints who live for Him rightly. It is not yet solely future it is also here and now. Increasing in measure as we draw near to His return and then an eternal reality. Wrath in the context of 1Th.5:9 is speaking of the eternal wrath. It is the destiny of the saints to be eternally secure and the destiny of the unbelievers to suffer God's eternal wrath. The text shifts from the temporal to the eternal during the later part of verse 8

“But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.” (1 Thessalonians 5:8–10, NASB95)
God's wrath, as the obvious example to me, is upon those who engage in homosexual behavior. Aids, in one sense a merciful disease as it gives the afflicted an extended opportunity to repent as oppposed to say a heart attack, is a demonstration of the tempered wrath of God resting upon the sons of disobedience.
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,” (Romans 1:18, NASB95)

“Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.” (1 Corinthians 10:5–6, NASB95)
If the example above has no meat in it then it is worthless apart from being something to debate about. We are to learn that resisting these sins is wise and continuing in them will weaken our faith to the point that we may fall. Now you can put whatever hyper-grace spin on those words but in the context of the passage it does not look like a good thing. There is the simplicity of understanding that a penalty will paid by those who engage in the sins seen in verses 7-10.

vinsight4u;62523696]

I saw another red car turn the corner.

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You have added the adjective (RED) to the example which is a completely different circumstance. In this example we could conclude there was at least one red car. However......if the example were to read like the scripture....... I saw four cars on the hill. I saw another car coming from the east. In this example we can only conclude that one car came from the east

What does that make you think as to what else I saw?

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I would say it means you saw at least one red car first.

John tells us that he "saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven". What does it make you think he has already seen?

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I would say it means he has seen at least one other angel before.

Now, think about the verse in Rev. 7.
"...another angel ascending from..."

And what did John really see here, fellow thread reading people?

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John saw four angels........then he saw another angel ascending from the east.

That's 5 angels not eight.

Further it does not tell us that the first four angels ascended from the east. It only tells us that the fifth angel ascended from the east. You need to learn your adjectives, nouns, verbs and adverbs.

Your logic is severely flawed.

for the sake of time a short response, then perhaps more later.

I don't see how you can justify breaking verse 12 from 13 as you do, based on the break in the accounts which is done at the verses where Noah's age is identified. Verses 11-13 are continuous. Selfsame is taken to mean "identical" in this case, the day is identical to the day previously mentioned. The day is what is identical, not the activitiy of entering.

But this problem not withstanding your previous error is a bit worse

9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

..........Noah entered.........7 days later........need any more be said?

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The part about 7 days later - YOU ADDED .

EDIT: [It does not say "7 days after" It says "after the 7th day". HUGE DIFFERENCE. You may need a better translation. See my next post]

God states that there is a 7 day deadline. Then a number of things take place, and they all take place in order. Obviously Noah can only go into the ark once. But when it says he entered it doesn't say he did so right away. Even if this was true, there is no evidence that the door was shut right away either. Even if he sat in the door for seven days, the door may have been open.

"Noah, go into the ark, in seven days it will rain"

1. Noah goes in.
2. God shuts the door.
3. The rain begins.

On which day did Noah go in? It does not say.

...... of too my staff meeting...

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I think I understand the problem.

Some people read verse 10 to read this way:

"So it was, that 7 days after Noah entered the ark, the flood began......."

When the verse should be read this way, which is the proper word order:

"So it was, at the end of 7 days, the flood began"

This is a common problem with translations that change the tense and order of the words and try to make it fit into an easy-to-read format for modern english speach. This actually confuses the simple and straitforward facts.

Verse 10 is not pointing backward at verse 11, it is not completing a thought. It is a complete thought on its own.

Here it is in Young's literal translation, my go-to translation for Bible study of this sort, where there is a sticking point over word order. This is a complete sentence, it does not mention anything to do whatsoever with the day Noah entered, only that the flood began on the day that the Lord had said.

verse 10 says:

Amazing how there can be a problem when all we have to do is read exactly what it says.

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What is amazing is that there wasn't a problem until people changed the words, making it SEEM as if verse 10 said something it didn't say.

Read just what it says, and nothing more than it says.

Whoa...Whoa......what happened to this guy. Your post from Feb 8 th
>>>> I suppose that the meaning of the verse must be - yet again - mistranslated by most versions.
It would seem you are right after all! Nice work.

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Same guy, new day. I just thought it was better to ponder, and give the benefit of the doubt there, I wasn't aware of the meaning of the word "selfsame". I did mention, earlier on in this discussion that one way of resolving this possible conflict is that selfsame may mean "essence" or "essentially". Although the more I look at the verse, the more "essentially" doesn't seem to fit.


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ebedmelech said:

The 1000 years are NOT literal but figurative of Christ reign through the church.

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I'm a little confused by this comment.

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while." Rev 20:1-3

You seem to be saying that we are living in these times now - does the above passage seem like an accurate description of the world around us today? I am NOT convinced Satan is bound in a pit, with a seal over him so that he cannot deceive the nations any longer?! The world around me seems quite deceived!

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." (1 Peter 5:8)

Why would we have to be watchful of the devil (as described in verse above) if he is bound, sealed and unable to deceive us or anyone else?

Seems to me that we are not living in the millenium...

Danny777 said:

I'm a little confused by this comment.

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while." Rev 20:1-3

You seem to be saying that we are living in these times now - does the above passage seem like an accurate description of the world around us today? I am NOT convinced Satan is bound in a pit, with a seal over him so that he cannot deceive the nations any longer?! The world around me seems quite deceived!

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That's exactly what I'm saying. Too often saints want to chalk evil up to Satan....however what is it that Jeremiah said of man's heart?
Jeremiah 17:9:
9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Sinful man can be pretty wicked without Satan. If you don't think Satan is bound right now...wait until he's loosed.

If you will...read Matthew 28:18, 19...1 Cor 15:20-28, Ephesians 1:18-23, and Colossians 1:13-15. Then explain to me why Christ is not reigning now.

Danny777 said:

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." (1 Peter 5:8)

Why would we have to be watchful of the devil (as described in verse above) if he is bound, sealed and unable to deceive us or anyone else?

Seems to me that we are not living in the millenium...

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The 1000 years are figurative of Christ reign...it's not literal. Take a look at the use of "perfect thousands" in the Psalms and prophets.

Why do you think Peter says "with the Lord a day is like 1000 years, and a thousand years like a day"?

Just because Satan is prowling around doesn't mean he's not bound. He no longer has access to heaven because he can no longer accuse the brethren...Jesus took car of that at the cross.

Think on that.