Is there a conspiracy against the teachings of Jesus?

Luke1433 · Feb 28, 2013

Years ago, after many years in church circles, I discovered the teachings of Jesus. I was shocked at how different they are from the teachings and practices of any church I have ever known.

So I went to my church leaders and tried to get them interested in reading and promoting the teachings of Jesus, only to experience a blank wall of silence, followed by numerous attempts to mount personal attacks against myself.

I have, since that initial discovery, dedicated my life to promoting obedience to the teachings of Jesus, with some startling revelation about just how much of a conspiracy there is against his teachings in the church world today. In fact, I regard it almost as a miracle to find even one person who is prepared to let the teachings of Jesus "break" them (as Jesus taught they would do) today.

Is there anyone here who would like to discuss the teachings of Jesus and consider whether they have, in fact, been pushed aside in favour of many other nice sounding doctrines, but doctrines that do not naturally spring from the things that Jesus taught nevertheless?

Please share your thoughts.

michaelG1949 · Feb 28, 2013

my thoughts, when fid Peter tell Cornelious to quit his job. acts 11:29 each disciple gave according to their own ability. if all property had beensold and pooled with no private ownership at all, why would anyone have more than another? why wasn't it stated according to the ability of the church there? some are called to rid themselves of all that causes them to sin.

Omena · Feb 28, 2013

There is so much to say on this subject.

The teachings of Jesus really sort people out. People either react totally against them, or they become completely changed by them. Like you touched on, luke, they are either broken on them or destroyed by them.

Jesus said that he would set son against father, and mother against daughter etc. (Luke 12:53). He knew that his teachings would not only be rejected, but actually hated by most of the world, causing those who hate them to move together into one camp, and those who want to live by them to move into another camp.

The teachings of Jesus have the power to create incredible unity amongst Christians, while at the same time they can be more divisive than any denomination or doctrine you'll find in the churches today.

Luke1433 · Feb 28, 2013

Michael, are there particular teachings of Jesus which you are reacting against in the points that you have raised?

Handmaid for Jesus · Feb 28, 2013

The teachings of Jesus are great, and should be taught. I have found that many in the church are greedy for worldly wealth. They consider the actual doing of the word to be repugnant to them. Look what Jesus says. If a person slaps you on one cheek, turn to him the other. How many people you know who are christian will actually do that? Ok, here is another. Agree with your adversary. Wow! That would get rid of denominations, lol. ^_^

michaelG1949 · Feb 28, 2013

there are no teachings of Jesus that i disagree with. i could use a few of his teachings to justify any way i chose to live my life, but i won't. God uses diferent people in diferent ways. Jesus said to be alight unto the world, the whole world, the workplace included. each and every christian is to be used by our Father in diferent ways and places. i don't work anymore and i don't have time to work because God has me doing things that work would interfere with. if i never worked for money, i would never been a light to some in the workplace. God provided me with a job i didn't want, but used it for his Glory. i have no problem with Jesus teachings. just mans.

Luke1433 · Feb 28, 2013

Thank you, Handmaid, for that post.

Handmaid for Jesus said:
The teachings of Jesus are great, and should be taught. I have found that many in the church are greedy for worldly wealth. They consider the actual doing of the word to be repugnant to them. Look what Jesus says. If a person slaps you on one cheek, turn to him the other. How many people you know who are christian will actually do that? Ok, here is another. Agree with your adversary. Wow! That would get rid of denominations, lol.

Are there some of the teachings of Jesus which you have difficulty understanding? I'm saying that because I have trouble understanding some of them. The one about agreeing with our adversaries is one of them. It doesn't seem like that is an absolute thing, but certainly something that we should be doing a lot more of than we (or at least I) do. I got cranky with a mechanic yesterday, who was trying to rip me off, and now I feel terrible and I need to go back and apologise.

Of course the devil is our ultimate adversary, and yet I would not want to agree with him. But it is always good to look for something (in humans) that we can agree on, and work from there, rather than jumping into arguments over the first thing that we differ on.

And here's another question. Are other Christians really our "adversaries"? lol Funny, isn't it, how we do often think of one another as the enemy? How would we be at agreeing with atheists or people from non-Christian religions. Personally, I think we could achieve a lot more even with these kind of people if we worked on looking for their good points.

michaelG1949 · Feb 28, 2013

there are no teachings of Jesus that i disagree with. i could use a few of his teachings to justify any way i chose to live my life, but i won't. God uses diferent people in diferent ways. Jesus said to be alight unto the world, the whole world, the workplace included. each and every christian is to be used by our Father in diferent ways and places. i don't work anymore and i don't have time to work because God has me doing things that work would interfere with. if i never worked for money, i would never been a light to some in the workplace. God provided me with a job i didn't want, but used it for his Glory. i have no problem with Jesus teachings. just mans.

Chaplain David · Feb 28, 2013

Luke1433 said:
Years ago, after many years in church circles, I discovered the teachings of Jesus. I was shocked at how different they are from the teachings and practices of any church I have ever known.

So I went to my church leaders and tried to get them interested in reading and promoting the teachings of Jesus, only to experience a blank wall of silence, followed by numerous attempts to mount personal attacks against myself.

I have, since that initial discovery, dedicated my life to promoting obedience to the teachings of Jesus, with some startling revelation about just how much of a conspiracy there is against his teachings in the church world today. In fact, I regard it almost as a miracle to find even one person who is prepared to let the teachings of Jesus "break" them (as Jesus taught they would do) today.

Is there anyone here who would like to discuss the teachings of Jesus and consider whether they have, in fact, been pushed aside in favour of many other nice sounding doctrines, but doctrines that do not naturally spring from the things that Jesus taught nevertheless?

Please share your thoughts.

Hello,

I just noticed this by chance or did I. I've always loved the teachings of Jesus and am still looking for a nice handbook with a title something like, "All the Teachings and Quotes of Jesus Christ."

There are certainly some who do not dwell exclusively on that part of Scripture where Jesus is quoted. However all Scripture is either inspired and/or entirely true and without error depending how we look at it. Therefore, all scripture is equal in value and all is important because it is God's written word.

But I know where you're coming from and just want to say, God bless you brother.

Faithfully,

:groupray:

Luke1433 · Feb 28, 2013

Hi Sacerdote. In reference to the teachings of Jesus vs the rest of the Bible, you wrote: "All scripture is equal in value."

This is one of the first defences I invariably encounter when trying to discuss the teachings of Jesus, and yet it contradicts the scriptural teaching that Jesus is the Cornerstone. There are scriptures giving precise instructions for how to sacrifice certain animals, and yet I am sure that you would not teach that people can choose whether or not they want to follow those scriptures in preference to Jesus being the perfect sacrifice.

I think it's at the opening of John's gospel where he says that the law came through Moses, but grace and truth come through Jesus Christ. I'll take the grace and truth of Jesus over the law any day!

Luke1433 · Feb 28, 2013

I was with some friends one night a few years ago, and someone suggested that we list from memory some of the commands of Jesus. These are in no special order, and we obviously missed a lot of the commands, but it gives a picture of what a Christian might be doing (or not doing) today. It does not sound like people in any church that I have attended:

1. Obey my commandments - John 14:15 , John 14:21 , John 14:23 ; 2 John 6

2. Love God and others - John 15:12 , Matthew 22:37-40

3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15 , Matthew 28:19

4. Don't delay, do it now - John 4:35 , John 9:4 , John 12:35

5. Take nothing for your journey - Luke 9:3 , Luke 10:4

6. Don't work for food - John 6:27 , Matthew 6:24-33 , Luke 12:29

7. Work for me & my kingdom - Matthew 11:28-30 , Luke 12:31

8. Sell all that you own - Luke 11:41 , Luke 12:33 , Luke 18:22

9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19

10. Don't charge for what you do - Matthew 10:8

11. Give to God what belongs to God - Luke 20:25 , Matthew 22:21

12. Don't waste time on argumentative people - Matthew 7:6

13. Invite the poor to eat with you - Luke 14:12-14

14. Give to anyone who asks - Luke 6:30 , Mark 6:37

15. If you pray, fast, or give, do it secretly - Matthew 6:1-11

16. Don't use vain repetitions when praying - Matthew 6:7

17. Don't advertise healings - Matthew 9:30 , Matthew 12:16

18. Take the lowest position in meetings - Luke 14:8-10

19. Don't be called Father, Mister, etc. - Matthew 23:9-10

20. Beware of hypocrisy and greed - Luke 12:1 , 15

21. Take up your cross and follow me - Mark 8:34

22. Live in me, and live in my love - John 15:4 , 9

23. Eat whatever people give you - Luke 10:7

24. Rejoice when you are persecuted - Luke 6:23

25. Move to another city if persecuted - Matthew 10:23

26. Love, bless, and pray for your enemies - Luke 6:27-29

27. Do to others as you'd have them do to you - Luke 6:31

28. Be agreeable with your adversaries - Luke 12:58 , Matthew 5:25

29. Forgive others - Mark 11:25-26 , Matthew 6:12 , Luke 6:37

30. Cut off your hand if it offends you - Mark 9:43

31. Don't be afraid of people - Luke 12:4-5

32. Let the dead bury the dead - Matthew 8:22

33. Rebuke a brother if he sins - Luke 17:3 , Matthew 18:15-17

34. When you judge, do it fairly - John 7:24

35. You must be born again- John 3:3 , Luke 18:17 , Mark 10:15

36. Don't make promises for any reason - Matthew 5:34-37

37. Don't sell things in God's house - John 2:16

38. Don't forbid others to preach Christ - Luke 9:50

39. Teach all nations to obey these rules - Matthew 28:20

40. When you have done all these things, say, "We have only done that which was our duty to do." - Luke 17:10

Andy S. Wright · Feb 28, 2013

If you want to thin the herd in a church, just preach the sermon on the mount.

Chaplain David · Feb 28, 2013

Luke1433 said:
Hi Sacerdote. In reference to the teachings of Jesus vs the rest of the Bible, you wrote: "All scripture is equal in value."

This is one of the first defences I invariably encounter when trying to discuss the teachings of Jesus, and yet it contradicts the scriptural teaching that Jesus is the Cornerstone. There are scriptures giving precise instructions for how to sacrifice certain animals, and yet I am sure that you would not teach that people can choose whether or not they want to follow those scriptures in preference to Jesus being the perfect sacrifice.

I think it's at the opening of John's gospel where he says that the law came through Moses, but grace and truth come through Jesus Christ. I'll take the grace and truth of Jesus over the law any day!

Hi Luke,

The Gospel is certainly the pivotal point in the New Testament and IMO the destination from which the scripture journey, beginning in the Book of Genesis takes us. I agree with the OP's premise that Jesus' teachings don't get as much air time as more general topics. But also posit that in general, and in many churches, scripture in general is not taught and receiving the emphasis I personally think it should receive.

God bless you.

:groupray:

Luke1433 · Feb 28, 2013

Andy wrote: "If you want to thin the herd in a church, just preach the sermon on the mount."

Good one, Andy! And how true.

Even our Baptist Chaplain friend above agrees that Jesus does not get much air time in the church. In general, people tend to say such things about other denominations than their own, but consider that they themselves are an exception. Unfortunately, I have not found ANY exceptions.

But that, too, is something that we should be expecting, since Jesus predicted that the church would lose its way before he returns, and so people will come in his name making all sorts of claims, but he will say that he never knew them. At one point, Jesus sounds somewhat depressed when he asks the rehetorical question, "Will there be any faith at all left when the Son of Man returns?"

TRWord · Feb 28, 2013

I have always felt that it should be impossible for anyone not to correlate the end of Christian persecution in 313 AD with the Edict of Milan, and Christianity being made the official religion of the Roman Empire in 380 AD.
With a closer look its impossible not to notice that this is where the switch from the teaching of Jesus Christ to what is called Christian doctrine was made.

Luke1433 · Feb 28, 2013

Very astute observation, T.R.

What can be done to get us back more to the teachings of Jesus? Do you have any comments about which of his commands you have found to be most helpful for you spiritually?

TRWord · Feb 28, 2013

I believe that His teaching must begin with an understanding of;

Ye must be born again.

The Common Understanding of Jesus as Lord and Saviour is predicated on the old covenant understanding of a blood sacrifice for sin, and John 3:16 is the verse thats usually used to support this idea.

It is interesting to note that John 3:16 has been extracted from the same area of the Lords teaching that the apostle John used to dispel this idea.

John chose this area (John 3:1-21) because the Lord was speaking to the Pharisee, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; a man fully steeped in this old covenant understanding.

The fact that Nicodemus did not understand what Jesus was saying should emphasize that Ye must be born again is of a different understanding.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Luke1433 · Feb 28, 2013

I'm not sure what you are saying, T.R., but for myself, I have found that the phrase "born again" has become kind of a secret password amongst "Christians" who often put their faith in a religious ritual that was actually more or less invented by Billy Graham. Obviously it is a phrase with some "hidden meaning", but I think the meaning can be fairly easily worked out if we just lay it alongside other things that Jesus said, and other verses such as the one from Peter saying that we are "born again" by the "Word of God". John knew who the Word of God was (See John 1:1-12) and in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, we are told that this name for Jesus has been missed by virtually everyone.

Putting these verses together, we conclude that one can only be born again (transformed into a dramatically different person) by listening to Jesus and what he has said. But how many of these people who say the magic prayer and "ask Jesus into their hearts" ever even take a moment to contemplate whether Jesus taught it that way? If they don't, then they have not even MET Jesus yet, much less been transformed by him. The "Jesus" that they asked into their hearts is a false Jesus, veiled in evangelical tradition.

It'll be interesting to see how much agreement (if any) we have on this point. : )

Handmaid for Jesus · Feb 28, 2013

Luke1433 said:
Thank you, Handmaid, for that post.

Are there some of the teachings of Jesus which you have difficulty understanding? I'm saying that because I have trouble understanding some of them. The one about agreeing with our adversaries is one of them. It doesn't seem like that is an absolute thing, but certainly something that we should be doing a lot more of than we (or at least I) do. I got cranky with a mechanic yesterday, who was trying to rip me off, and now I feel terrible and I need to go back and apologise.

Of course the devil is our ultimate adversary, and yet I would not want to agree with him. But it is always good to look for something (in humans) that we can agree on, and work from there, rather than jumping into arguments over the first thing that we differ on.

And here's another question. Are other Christians really our "adversaries"? lol Funny, isn't it, how we do often think of one another as the enemy? How would we be at agreeing with atheists or people from non-Christian religions. Personally, I think we could achieve a lot more even with these kind of people if we worked on looking for their good points.

There are no teaching of Jesus that I do not understand. There are just those that I have trouble doing. I pray that one day I will be able to do them with His help.The main thing we have to agree with is that we are/were sinners. But something in the human psyche that rebells at the confession of sins. Say "I was/am wrong." But, we don't really believe we are/were wrong. There is the rub. Say to the mechanic that it was wrong of you to get testy with him, however it was wrong of him to try to use you,but you will pray for him and that you forgive him. Oh he will probably get angry at your words, but you will have done what is right.

Luke1433 · Feb 28, 2013

Hi Handmaid. I saw your post and realised I had not yet apologised to the mechanic. (Actually it was the manageress.) So I went to her and told her I was sorry for losing my temper. I did not go into anything about what was wrong with her, as I had said all of that yesterday.

It's wonderful to have someone here who understands all of the teachings of Jesus, as I have some problems with just about every one of them. (Excuse a hint of sarcasm, as I'm not convinced that you can answer all of my questions either.)

But I fully agree with you about the business of saying we are wrong. Ironically, the people who have the hardest time even discussing the teachings of Jesus are ones who vow and declare that they don't need to discuss them because they have been forgiven... kind of like they don't want to be guilty of trying to obey them now. And yet I find that once we understand just how much God loves us, it's much easier to deal with the teachings of Jesus, because we know that he mainly just wants us to TRY to obey him (and keep on trying). He is always there to make up the difference.

BTW, I think it also works in the other direction. What I mean is that if you can get someone to discuss the teachings of Jesus who does NOT know much about God's grace, they will soon become aware of how much they NEED his mercy, because of their imperfection in obeying Jesus.

One of the things that I feel about the teachings of Jesus (based both on what is written in an actual teaching and on what he has said in other places) is that they are fairly extreme, but at the same time, usually not absolute. We do need to get the spirit of what he is saying. Like with the one about agreeing with our adversary. As I said, if it was taken as absolute, then we would be agreeing with the Devil (our ultimate "adversary"). But it doesn't mean that Jesus is not totally serious about us staying out of arguments with people who are just going to turn on us (or put us in jail, as he said in the context of the original command).

Even in the mechanic situation that I just mentioned, there was, IMO, little need for me to lecture her on what SHE had done wrong. I don't believe she was open to that, and so it would have been like casting pearls before swine... another teaching of Jesus which is pretty close to the one about agreeing with our adversaries.

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