Faith alone?

I think this passage answers it pretty clearly:

Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Baptism by water is a public profession of faith, should be done, but it does not give you salvation.
Good works because we want to serve God...it is a by-product/evidence of our faith, but also does not give you salvation.

If there's anything we could physically DO to get saved, then Jesus died in vain. Salvation is a gift of mercy from God to those that believe in Him.

Coire said:

TOPIC: are we saved by faith alone or do we need to be baptised or do good works as well?

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I would say both.

To have faith there needs to be fruit. With out fruit what do you really have? Nothing... but fruit by it self does you no good either.

Both, although various Christian thinkers have argued that God may excuse one or the other in exceptional situations which are not your fault. Since that doesn't apply to you or anyone else here...it's both Baptism and faith. Never works, however.

What about the thief on the cross beside Jesus as he was being crucified...

Jesus said
Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43
)

Was the thief being crucified ever baptised? I dont think he was. He was going to heaven because he believed in Jesus.

UnionJack said:

What about the thief on the cross beside Jesus as he was being crucified...

Jesus said
Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43
)

Was the thief being crucified ever baptised? I dont think he was. He was going to heaven because he believed in Jesus.

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Well, not the way we might count it I suppose

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

UnionJack said:

What about the thief on the cross beside Jesus as he was being crucified...

Jesus said
Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43
)

Was the thief being crucified ever baptised? I dont think he was. He was going to heaven because he believed in Jesus.

Click to expand...

Actually, Christ gave him no guarantee of salvation but only said the obvious--that both of them would be in the world of spirits that day. As we know, both died shortly thereafter.

Coire said:

TOPIC: are we saved by faith alone or do we need to be baptised or do good works as well?

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It's a false dichotomy. Faith is an existential act, not a mental or intellectual one. Therefore, to have "faith" is to be one who does the will of God. There is no priority (logical, temporal, or otherwise) between faith and works; they are merely different ways of talking about the existential movement of faith.

Coire said:

TOPIC: are we saved by faith alone or do we need to be baptised or do good works as well?

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Fallacy of False Dichotomy; you argue as if faith, baptism, and works are somehow mutually exclusive.

Living faith is belief and works combined with fidelity. Holy Baptism is grace by living faith.

UnionJack said:

What about the thief on the cross beside Jesus as he was being crucified...

Jesus said
Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43
)

Was the thief being crucified ever baptised? I dont think he was. He was going to heaven because he believed in Jesus.

Click to expand...

Several valid responses to that:

In orthodox baptismal theology, there are what are called the "Baptism by Desire" and the "Baptism by Blood".

The Early Church recognized that some people who believed, but had never been baptized because of varying valid reasons, wanted and intended to be baptized. Thus, it declared that all of these people, called "catechumens" (for they were hearers and learners of the faith and participated in the liturgy before Holy Communion), would be considered as Christians and be allowed to be buried in a Christian ritual. Because their desire was to enter the Church and be baptized, they were recognized as Christians despite not formally being members of the Church; their witness by their actions, desires, and beliefs made it clear.

The other, Baptism by Blood, is even more simple. Those who were killed because of practicing and believing in the Christian faith, though they were not yet baptized, were also recognized by the Church. In their case, the blood they shed were their baptismal waters.

St. Dismas could qualify for either; he must have recognized Jesus for Who is He because of his request: all Jews knew that no one could forgive sins except God. He knew Jesus could forgive sins and humbly begged, being truly contrite. Jesus, out of His infinite mercy, chose to forgive him, recognizing his true faith. The Church notes this.

The Church also notes that Jesus had yet to truly die and be risen, let alone ascend. Thus, because of this, St. Dismas did not have to be baptized at all, for as Holy Writ says, in baptism we die, are buried/descend in, and are raised in Jesus. If Jesus had yet been raised from the dead, then that vital aspect of baptism had yet to occur, so there were no Christian baptisms yet.

So either of the three is a valid reply: the first two are a part of baptismal theology that is largely ignored by those that reject orthodox baptismal theology and sacramental theology and the third point is a logical result of Holy Scripture.

Sacramental theology and baptismal theology are not straightjackets. There is no legalism in orthodox Christian theology, and the above shows it.

Coire said:

TOPIC: are we saved by faith alone or do we need to be baptised or do good works as well?

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Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. James 2:24

The scriptures (the book of James, for example) are quite clear that works are required of Christians, that not doing the works God has intended for you is sin, and sin seperates us from God and if not atoned for will lead to eternal damnation.

But I thought works couldn't save us? What gives?

While "spiritual lazyness" is sin and can lead to death, doing everything God requires of you wil NEVER atone for your sins. The ONLY thing that atones for sins is the blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. That blood is offered as a free gift, and we can offer nothing to God to deserve it. But in order to accept that ift, we must also accept the Lordship of Jesus. Contrary to popular beleif, the word "lord" is not a synonym for "God." It is a feudal title used to refer to a King or Ruler, so to say "Jesus is Lord" is not acknowledging his diety. Rather, it is acknowledging that he is the master, and we are but his servants. And as his servants, we are commanded to "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matt 28:19). This is not optional.

As far as salvation and baptism goes, nowhere in scripture do we hav an example of anyone being saved who was not baptised. One needs the blood of Christ to atone for one's sins to be saved. How does one become washed in the blood? Saying the "Sinner's Prayer" is not found in scripture. What is found is Acts 2:37 and following:
"When the people heard this (the gospel), they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brother's what shall we do?"
Peter replied "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Also, consider what Paul says about baptism in Romans 6:3 and following:

"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will also certainly be united with him in his resurrection."

Go back and read that passage in Romans again. Slowly.

Now, re-read it a third time. Meditate on it.

If all you do is go down into the water because some guy trots out the scriptures on baptism, and you want to make sure you have all the religous boxes checked, all you're doing is getting yourself wet and wasting your time. The true purpose of baptism-and what seperates baptism from legalistic dunking-is for us to participate in the death, burial, and ressurection of Christ. Because without partaking in that, we cannot be saved. Dying to self means we are no longer the Lord of our own lives. We gave that up when we died in Christ, and accepted his Lordship.

Understand this-obedience to God is not legalism. I will not set aside being obedient-nor will I counsel anyone else to do the same-because someone may misinterpret my obedience as legalism. Legalism is the beleif that one can follow the law perfectly, and not need a savior. Baptism, when done as perscribed in the book of Romans, is the believer's admission that legalism doesn't work, and the beleiver wishes to die as Christ did, be washed in his blood, and rise as a new creation.

Does God grant exceptions to that command in circumstances where someone simply cannot be baptized? It is certainly his perrogative to do so, but only God can decide that, and I for one would not take that option unless I had tried desperately to participate in Christ's death, burial and ressurection in the manner God perscribed.

For 99.99% of the worlds population, baptism is a simple command, easily complied with. One should be eager to be baptised, to be washed in the blood that atones for sins.

rea98d said:

The scriptures (the book of James, for example) are quite clear that works are required of Christians, that not doing the works God has intended for you is sin, and sin seperates us from God and if not atoned for will lead to eternal damnation.

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The language you have used here is quite misleading, and would seem to signal a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of faith and works.

Works are not something "required", nor are they something you "do." In the same way, faith is not "required", and faith is not something you "do". The life of faith (which is the only accurate and biblical way to speak of such things) is an existential reality...it has nothing to do with intellectual assent or physical action. To have faith, to do the will of God...these are not quantifiable actions or entities that you "have" or don't "have", that you "do" or don't "do".

No, the life of faith is the committing of one's entire person to the will of God. It is the trans-rational, trans-physical involvement of one's whole life in the kingdom of God. The "faith" and "good works" of which you speak are not prerequisites, but are rather artefacts of a life committed to the will of God.

This is why the New Testament writers hold Abraham up as the model of faith. His faith was not expressed in tangible "belief" or in isolated "acts of faith". Rather, he is the model of faith because his entire life was an existential leap into the darkness of the unknown of God, an existence which committed itself to the will of God without reserve. The "faith" and "works" of Abraham, then, are not what "are" faith, but are rather the artefacts left behind of a true life of faith, an existence entrusted exhaustively to the will and pleasure of God.

Water baptism does not save (1 Pet. 3:21). The baptism that matters is baptism in the Spirit (in the non-Pentecostal sense). That is what places us in the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), that is what prevents us from being among those who will ultimately be consumed by fire of judgment (Matt. 3, John 1), that is when we are born of God (John 3:5).

Works neither gain nor sustain salvation. We "get" salvation by faith, apart from works -- Rom. 3-4, Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5. We "perfect" salvation the same way -- Gal. 3:3. Works add nothing to saving faith, but are *evidence* of it -- Jas. 2:18, Eph. 2:10, Tit. 3:8. The "works" that demonstrate faith are acts of love -- Gal. 5:6.

rogueapologist said:

The language you have used here is quite misleading, and would seem to signal a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of faith and works.

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I think calling my words "misleading" is harsh and inaccurate. I'll be the first to admit I don't have a complete understanding of how it all works out, but I try to keep learning. But my language is similar to that used in Ephesians and James.

An earlier poster quoted Ephesians 2:8:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

What did Paul mean when he said "not by works"? What he meant was that righteous actions cannot atone for sins. Atonement is a gift.

That being said, James was also quite clear that faith in good manifests itself in actions and deeds.

James 2:14-26 says as much, even going so far as to state "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

So I feel confident that scripture supports my assertation that if one is to live as a Christian, God requires action of us.

Ideally, if we are truly trying to follow the will of God in our hearts, when we see these opportunities, we will gladly do as Jesus would do without even having to think about it. However, since there is no such thing as a perfect Christian, some of us have to work a little harder about not committing sins, about being the hands and feet of Christ on earth, about smiling at someone and sharing God's love with them when all we want to do is backhand them, etc. Times like that are why we still need that free gift of grace that cannot be earned.

Coire said:

TOPIC: are we saved by faith alone or do we need to be baptised or do good works as well?

Click to expand...

Faith is never alone because a person who has faith will have works. If he has no works, faith does not exist.

UnionJack said:

Baptism by water is a public profession of faith, should be done, but it does not give you salvation.

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The Bible disagrees with you.

Is it POSSIBLE to be saved without being baptized? Sure. For God, all things are possible.
Do we have any assurance that anyone is saved (except the one example with the robber on the Cross, from which no general rule that goes against clear Scripture can be established) without being baptized?
No. So we cannot know for certain if someone who isn't baptized, is saved. We can hope, and presume, if they professed to be Christians, that they were, but we have no assurance.

Indeed, Jesus says it pretty clearly in His conversation with Nicodemus: Unless one is born of water and spirit, one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yarddog said:

Faith is never alone because a person who has faith will have works. If he has no works, faith does not exist.

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But the crux of the matter is: What saves? Faith (which everyone agree MUST be there), or our works?
In short: Can we add anything to Jesus' atonement for our sins, or was His atonement sufficient? THIS is what it's about.

Then there are those who had to be baptized twice.


Acts 19
2 He said unto them , Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed ? And they said unto him , We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized ? And they said , Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is , on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied . 7 And all the men were about twelve.

ChristOurCaptain said:

But the crux of the matter is: What saves? Faith (which everyone agree MUST be there), or our works?

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In short: Faith is a work. It is our response to God.

ChristOurCaptain said:

In short: Can we add anything to Jesus' atonement for our sins, or was His atonement sufficient? THIS is what it's about.

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There are no works through which man can be "justified" other than those of Jesus Christ. But, believing is an action of man which is spurred by the Holy Spirit. We cannot believe without God helping us. Man cannot justify himself through works of the law. Doing what is right means nothing because we will always do something wrong, thus we need Jesus to complete the works which lead to justification for us.

Justification begins our journey toward salvation. Justification "saves" us from doing what we cannot do but we need to respond to the gift which we have been given. We must open that gift and put it to use. What do we do with the talents that the King has given us.

When we believe we will respond to God by being baptized which saves us according to scripture.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9
because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
1 Timothy 2:15
but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.

So can we say that Faith "alone" saves because faith is never alone.