To Muslims Question about Isaiah 9:6
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Jews have traditionally viewed it as an angel not G-d.
It is when Jacob is renamed Israel. Israel means wrestles with G-d. It is showing what kind of nation Israel will be. The entire Tanakh can be seen as Israel struggling with the task it has been given and many of the people failing. Even those that succeed seem to argue and fight about it.
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Sorry, I looked up the account and saw that it wasn't a dream and I was thinking of something else. I have corrected my post.
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Do you accept these verses as a part of your Scriptures:
22That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,e because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”
29Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30So Jacob called the place Peniel,f saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
31The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,g and he was limping because of his hip. 32Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.
22That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,e because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”
29Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30So Jacob called the place Peniel,f saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
31The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,g and he was limping because of his hip. 32Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.
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To point out the problem I was going to get to:
In this instance you are kind of telling me how I should interpret my scriptures. However, were I to attempt to interpret yours, you would say that I can't do that. So, either I can interpret yours and I can ignore the Islamic understanding or you can allow the Jewish understanding to be allowed for our scriptures. It is not a valid stance, in my opinion, to say you get to be the interpreter for all.
In this instance you are kind of telling me how I should interpret my scriptures. However, were I to attempt to interpret yours, you would say that I can't do that. So, either I can interpret yours and I can ignore the Islamic understanding or you can allow the Jewish understanding to be allowed for our scriptures. It is not a valid stance, in my opinion, to say you get to be the interpreter for all.
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Sorry for the delay. Went to go tidy up the house & came back just to reply.
Well, the verses seem to clearly say that Jacob (peace be upon him) met with God face-to-face, wrestled with Him, and lost. How do Jewish scholars reach the conclusion that it was instead an angel that he was wrestling with? Or is it the reconciliation between this passage and the fact that wrestling with & then losing to His creation is beneath God and is not befitting His Majesty?
Even if it's metaphorical/symbolic, why would it be praiseworthy for a Prophet of God to fight (literal or not) with his Creator and "win"?
Valid point.
The Prophet Jacob (peace be upon him) wrestling with God is not the only problem we have with the Torah. Do Jews not also believe that Moses' (peace be upon him) death is written about in the Torah? That is a glaring contradiction with what we believe of the Torah (that it was revealed in its entirety from God --> Angel --> Moses --> his nation). Unless Moses rose from the dead in the worldly sense (which we also don't believe) to have this revealed to him & then to have it written down, I don't see how this could have been revealed to Moses (peace be upon him).
I also don't understand how the Prophet Lot (peace be upon him) could have committed incest.....while warning his people of homosexuality. In Islaam, we hold that all of the Prophets are free from major sins. And incest and adultery are both major sins.
Well, the verses seem to clearly say that Jacob (peace be upon him) met with God face-to-face, wrestled with Him, and lost. How do Jewish scholars reach the conclusion that it was instead an angel that he was wrestling with? Or is it the reconciliation between this passage and the fact that wrestling with & then losing to His creation is beneath God and is not befitting His Majesty?
Even if it's metaphorical/symbolic, why would it be praiseworthy for a Prophet of God to fight (literal or not) with his Creator and "win"?
Valid point.
The Prophet Jacob (peace be upon him) wrestling with God is not the only problem we have with the Torah. Do Jews not also believe that Moses' (peace be upon him) death is written about in the Torah? That is a glaring contradiction with what we believe of the Torah (that it was revealed in its entirety from God --> Angel --> Moses --> his nation). Unless Moses rose from the dead in the worldly sense (which we also don't believe) to have this revealed to him & then to have it written down, I don't see how this could have been revealed to Moses (peace be upon him).
I also don't understand how the Prophet Lot (peace be upon him) could have committed incest.....while warning his people of homosexuality. In Islaam, we hold that all of the Prophets are free from major sins. And incest and adultery are both major sins.
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It's because we see in other instances where an angel is referred to as G-d. It has to do with a messenger being seen as a proxy to the sender and can be just said to be that person. For example, if a King were to send a message to another King, would you need to say that the king, through a messenger, said to the other King or could you just say King A said to King B?
We don't require our prophets to always do praiseworthy things. David caused a man to die so he could have his wife. Elijah was basically fired for a moment where he lacked faith. The prophets were human and were not perfect.
What you are saying is that G-d could not reveal to Moses his death and Moses write about it? Is G-d so limited?
You are missing the part where his daughters deliberately did this to him. They made him drink wine and then slept with him on purpose. Also, in the Torah, Lot doesn't exactly make the best decisions. You may hold that prophets are free from sin but we do not. To claim that we added in the prophets sinning requires proof. If you have no proof (and you don't) all you can say is that you believe it has been changed, not state it as fact.
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I get what you're saying. I mean, we say that God said such-and-such even though the Prophet said so....though we believe that it WAS God who revealed those things originally (and the Prophet is repeating it). But we would never call our Messengers/Prophets God even though they are conveying what He said.
We don't say that Moses slapped God when he slapped the Angel of Death (peace be upon them both) because he was so frightened by the sudden appearance of him. It would open up the door to a lot of misunderstandings about the Oneness of God to give the Name of God to any other than Him. Why wouldn't God be clear about the most important/basic/fundamental aspect of the religion?
Then your belief is that Prophets of God (who are sent to be the leaders of mankind and to guide them in the sense of teaching them what the religion says) can be immoral men. This is another part of why we say the Torah has been corrupted. Either they were moral men who were free from major sins (as Islaam says) or they were Prophets who could commit major sins (as Judaism/Christianity say). There can only be one that's right here. Obviously, since I believe that Islaam is the final/complete and true religion, I judge previous Scriptures (modern-day ones) according to Islaam. The Qur'aan is the Furqaan (Criterion). And according to this, the Torah has to be wrong.
I can accept that laws are different for each of the nations, but I can't accept historical inaccuracies or descriptions of God that go against what He told us in the Qur'aan.
So you don't believe it was Joshua (or others) who finished the (present-day) Torah? And that the entire thing came from God --> angel --> Moses? What about the different writing styles?
1.) So not only is he incestuous, but he gets drunk? May Allaah forgive me for even suggesting such for any of his Prophets who are the best of mankind.
2.) I will state everything about Islaam as a fact since it is to me, just like I'm sure that the 10 commandments being revealed to Moses is a fact to you. You have no proof that it was from God, but you believe it to be and will state it like a fact, right? Otherwise you wouldn't believe in them (at least, I assume you wouldn't).
3.) I believe the Qur'aan to be the preserved word of God. If something in the Torah goes against what the Qur'aan says, I will say that it is mankind's corruption of the Torah (because both the original Torah and the Qur'aan are the Words of God......and for there to be any irreconcilable contradictions means that the previous Scriptures were corrupted since the present Scripture CAN'T due to the promise of God).
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Why do you need narrations and the like to understand your religion?
We don't view prophets in that light. They are to deliver the words from G-d to the people. That is their role. If they sin or don't sin isn't the issue. Islam, in my opinion, tends to raise the prophets to too high a level somewhat above everybody. Judaism says that the power of the prophets is G-d, and they are just men as everybody else.
I don't think it matters either way, to be honest. You are the one stating that Moses couldn't have written of his death which is the same as saying that G-d didn't know/couldn't reveal it.
That's right. He got drunk. So did Noah.
True.
Of course, it works just as well for me to say that the Qur'an is obviously not from G-d because it goes against parts of the Torah.
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The Qur'aan is sufficiently clear about God in order to understand His Oneness. We're told that there is no deity worthy of worship but Him, we're told that He does not have any partners and we're to worship Him alone, that He's One, we're told that He begets not nor was He begotten, we're told that nothing is like unto Him, we're told that only He has complete knowledge, etc. Anything else besides this in the narrations are extra. Helpful because they're a part of our religion, but the Qur'aan talks so much about the Oneness of God that if a person just read the Qur'aan alone, they'd understand it. The revelations during the Makkan period (before they migrated to Madinah) were focused on God and worshipping Him alone in order to strengthen the Muslims' faith before the other laws came down.
Besides, Allaah tells us in the Qur'aan itself to obey the Messenger of God (and we learn what he said through narrations).
But what I mean to say is that tawheed (the Oneness of God) - the absolute most important aspect of our religion and the first part of our Testimony of Faith - is clear in the Qur'aan.
We neither exalt them to a status higher than they are or lower them in status than they really are.
The Prophet Muhammad actually said, “Do not exaggerate about me as the Christians exaggerated about the son of Maryam (Mary), for I am no more than His slave, so say, the slave of Allaah and His Messenger.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, Ahaadeeth al-Anbiya’, 3189).
It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah and ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: When death was approaching the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), he put a cloak over his face, and when he felt hot he removed it and said, “May Allaah’s curse be upon the Jews and Christians, for they took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship” – warning against doing what they did. Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 436; Muslim, 529.
The Messenger of Allaah said during his illness from which he never recovered, "Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians that they took the graves of their prophets as mosques." She (Aaishah) reported: "Had it not been so, his (Prophet's) grave would have been in an open place, but it could not be due to the fear that it may not be taken as a mosque." (Saheeh Muslim)
It says in the hadeeth [referring to when he led them in prayer sitting down because he was ill, and they were standing, so he gestured to them to sit down]: “Just now you nearly did the action of the Persians and Romans, who stand up for their kings whilst they [the kings] are sitting.” (Narrated by Muslim, al-Salaah, 624)
It does matter because my point was that the Torah is whatever was revealed from God --> an angel --> Moses (peace be upon the angel and Moses). If anyone asks why we say the Torah is corrupted, that's just one of the reasons (that there are parts of it that weren't what God revealed to Moses).
And that's another reason why we'll say that the Torah that we have today is not the same Torah that was revealed to the Prophet Moses (peace be upon all three of them).....because we don't accept that the Prophets did such things. I understand that you believe that they can and did these sins, but if you wanted to know some parts of the Torah that we believe have been changed, that's some of it.
Yes, you can say the same thing that I say....which is why you're a Jew and I'm a Muslim.
I've gotta run. Totally lost track of time.
Take care.
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Yeah, that's pretty clear in the Torah. Have you ever read the whole thing?
We do not believe, nor does the Torah ever state, that Moses got his information from an angel as far as I am aware.
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football5680
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How would Muhammad and Gabriel review the Quran every year when it wasn't written down until after Muhammad's death?
If the Quran was this eternal book that had always been in Heaven then why would it need abrogation? Isn't it perfect?
The truth is Muhammad was making it up on the go and he got plenty of convenient "revelations" that allowed him to do whatever he wanted.
How many wives is a Muslim allowed to have? 4. (Quran 4:3) Muhammad got a revelation that allowed him to take as many as he wanted. (Quran 33:50)
That revelation also said you had to treat all of them equally then he got another revelation that said you can spend time with whoever you want. (Quran 33:51)
He wanted to Marry his adopted Sons wife so his son divorced her and let Muhammad have her. This broke a previous rule in the Quran but wait...Another revelation. (Quran 33:37) Which allowed it.
Muhammad made a vow to his wives that he would stop having sex with his slave girls. But then Allah comes and saves him again and allows it. (Quran 66:1)
Aisha called him out on this by saying "It seems to me your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire!"
Muhammad said we would find him in the Torah and we haven't.
You might want to claim Deuteronomy 18:18-I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
But then you have to deal with the Satanic verses that prove he is a false prophet.
Deuteronomy 18:20 says "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
Muhammad wanted to convert the people in Mecca who were Pagans. Well, what do you know, he receives a revelation that promotes Polytheism and they happily join him.
"Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other; these are the exalted Gharaniq (Cranes) whose intercession is approved."
These were 3 Pagan goddesses. When Muhammad confirmed their gods they were so happy. But then he realized he just promoted Polytheism which would clearly show he was a false prophet so he said they came from Satan.
Then he delivered this verse in the Quran. (Quran 22:52)
If Muhammad did this in a Christian or Jewish area he would have been killed. But luckily he was preaching to Pagans who knew nothing about either religion.
If the Quran was this eternal book that had always been in Heaven then why would it need abrogation? Isn't it perfect?
The truth is Muhammad was making it up on the go and he got plenty of convenient "revelations" that allowed him to do whatever he wanted.
How many wives is a Muslim allowed to have? 4. (Quran 4:3) Muhammad got a revelation that allowed him to take as many as he wanted. (Quran 33:50)
That revelation also said you had to treat all of them equally then he got another revelation that said you can spend time with whoever you want. (Quran 33:51)
He wanted to Marry his adopted Sons wife so his son divorced her and let Muhammad have her. This broke a previous rule in the Quran but wait...Another revelation. (Quran 33:37) Which allowed it.
Muhammad made a vow to his wives that he would stop having sex with his slave girls. But then Allah comes and saves him again and allows it. (Quran 66:1)
Aisha called him out on this by saying "It seems to me your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire!"
Muhammad said we would find him in the Torah and we haven't.
You might want to claim Deuteronomy 18:18-I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
But then you have to deal with the Satanic verses that prove he is a false prophet.
Deuteronomy 18:20 says "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
Muhammad wanted to convert the people in Mecca who were Pagans. Well, what do you know, he receives a revelation that promotes Polytheism and they happily join him.
"Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other; these are the exalted Gharaniq (Cranes) whose intercession is approved."
These were 3 Pagan goddesses. When Muhammad confirmed their gods they were so happy. But then he realized he just promoted Polytheism which would clearly show he was a false prophet so he said they came from Satan.
Then he delivered this verse in the Quran. (Quran 22:52)
If Muhammad did this in a Christian or Jewish area he would have been killed. But luckily he was preaching to Pagans who knew nothing about either religion.
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football5680
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When you read Isaiah 9:7 it makes it clear and obvious that it is talking about Jesus. If you just look at this verse alone then it isn't clear but the next verse makes it clear.
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6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (KJV)
I wonder when was Jesus ever called 'the Father'?
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Translation makes a big difference:
From a Jewish translation
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
Not so clear with that now, is it? It's in past tense, which I know the Hebrew is in for one, and it is saying that HaShem shall call the child that has already been born the prince of peace. Very, very different.
As for the next verse which makes it clear?
6. To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.
Doesn't seem to make it clear at all to me.
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