"Sodom and Gomorah" Tories /Lib Dems

super animator · Feb 24, 2013

Dave Ellis said:
Can you demonstrate the non existence of the tooth fairy?

Can you give me a well detail claim of it?

Dave Ellis · Feb 24, 2013

super animator said:
Can you give me a well detail claim of it?

It's a being that takes the teeth of some children, replacing it with a reward of some kind (i.e. a quarter) when the child's teeth fall out.

Going by interviews with many children, there are lots of instances of the Tooth Fairy leaving them a reward in exchange for their tooth. While there are no direct observations of this being (it apparently waits until they are asleep), there are many cases of personal experience with it.

super animator · Feb 24, 2013

Dave Ellis said:
It's a being that takes the teeth of some children, replacing it with a reward of some kind (i.e. a quarter) when the child's teeth fall out.

Going by interviews with many children, there are lots of instances of the Tooth Fairy leaving them a reward in exchange for their tooth. While there are no direct observations of this being (it apparently waits until they are asleep), there are many cases of personal experience with it.

Your describing the actions of it not the being itself. How can I verify it existence without information on the being itself. Even I prove without a shadow of doubt that a tooth is being replaced by quarter for some kids when the kid's teeth fall out, that doesn't prove the being exist because of it.

Dave Ellis · Feb 24, 2013

super animator said:
Your describing the actions of it not the being itself. How can I verify it existence without information on the being itself. Even I prove without a shadow of doubt that a tooth is being replaced by quarter for some kids when the kid's teeth fall out, that doesn't prove the being exist because of it.

I didn't ask you to prove the being exists. I asked you to prove it does not exist.

super animator · Feb 24, 2013

Dave Ellis said:
I didn't ask you to prove the being exists. I asked you to prove it does not exist.

Same difficulty, the existence of the tooth being replace with coins only prove that the tooth is replaced with coins, it doesn't prove anything considering the existence or non-existence of the fairy.

super animator · Feb 24, 2013

Regardless, it has nothing to do with the point that I made on the concept of burden of proof, even you are right about the "can't prove a negative", that doesn't make it go away.

Archaeopteryx · Feb 24, 2013

mindlight said:
I believe we are cosmically significant and that God created ex nihilo the heavens and the earth before he created man. He created man from the "clay"...trace it back to first causes then maybe he created us from the same stuff that he made the stars from. So maybe we are created from star dust.

Why must.. is the wrong question. We are significant because the same God that inspired the scriptures tells us that we are. being made in his image saved by the sacrifice of Gods son and having a future potential in God all contributes to this impression of significance and worth. And yes this applies to homosexuals as much as to hetrosexuals.

Our consciousness would not be a valid reason for our significance as the little we do know has merely told us that we know next to nothing beyond the tiny bubble of space that holds our star , home and planetary neighbours.

Why isn't our consciousness a valid reason to impart significance? As far as we are able to tell, we are the part of the cosmos that is conscious - the conscious cosmos. I'd say that alone is pretty significant. That one part of the cosmos is organised in such a way as to be able to contemplate the entire cosmos, including itself, is pretty amazing.

Marius27 · Feb 24, 2013

super animator said:
Regardless, it has nothing to do with the point that I made on the concept of burden of proof, even you are right about the "can't prove a negative", that doesn't make it go away.

I didn't intend on us to go on quite a tangent. I wasn't referring to burden of proof. As was pointed out, proving a negative is impossible. No matter how much falsification you claim, it never proves the negative.

If I say, "Prove Vampires don't exist". We all know what vampires are described as. You can scour the earth in search of them. But you not finding any doesn't prove they don't exist. It merely proves you didn't succeed in finding out whether they exist or not.

Dave Ellis · Feb 24, 2013

super animator said:
Same difficulty, the existence of the tooth being replace with coins only prove that the tooth is replaced with coins, it doesn't prove anything considering the existence or non-existence of the fairy.

That's absolutely correct. However, while there is a methodology you can use to get from here to proving the tooth fairy exists, there is no methodology you can use to prove it absolutely does not. All you can do is rule it out specific instances where it was claimed the tooth fairy was taking part.

In short, the most you are justified in saying is that it's extremely unlikely the Tooth Fairy exists.

Psudopod · Feb 25, 2013

So in your view the popular mandate is what drives the discussion and implementation is a matter of simply doing it in a measured way.

Popular mandate can drive discussion, it is not the only thing. Implemation is the measured way of doing it if the govenment can justify the implimentation of the popular mandate.

Your only moral limits are in effect consent and whether or not we have entrenched the particular immorality of our age into law yet- good grief!

Yes, my moral limits (when talking about relationships) are bounded by consent. What else should it be bounded by? A religious text I don't believe in? And what problem is caused by my morality?

The historicity of the Bible is pretty much demonstrated but this would take a whole new OP. I refer you to my previous comments about the fall of Sodom and Gomorrah which your above words indicate you have still not understood.

Of course, that's why everyone is a Christian. Oh wait, no they are not.

Morality is not the will of the people nor is it laws that have ignored Gods will. This is still wrong and those that approve it are cursed by that approval.

No, morality is a personal ruleset. Everyone has a different morality. I think it is immoral it kill someone for their sexuality, you disagree. You think it is aborant for two people of the same sex to commit in a marriage ceremony, I say go for it if you want to.

Psudopod · Feb 25, 2013

1) Everyone must follow the current marriage laws. Heterosexuals cannot enter into SSM. It is a law for everybody.

It's just marriage. SSM is just a lable used when talking about the subject. Opposite sex couples cannot enter civil partnerships, as the law is proposed at the moment. It's something I hope the Lords will fix, but I doubt it.

2) And society also does not want to witness homosexual "marriage".

Maybe not where you live, but it does over here.

Psudopod · Feb 25, 2013

Homosexual acts are inhuman.

It's sex that happens between humans. Nothing in human about it.

2 points for you.

1 - you do know that every type of sex gay people have, straight people do too? Anal, oral, with toys, mutual mastibation, whipped cream and candle wax, it all happens between a man and a woman just as often.

2 - sex is not the only thing a relationship brings.

Psudopod · Feb 25, 2013

The sample sizes are small , do not allow or account for the exceptions.

While more data is useful, the important is statistically significance. Are you saying the significance is too small in these studies. If so, please show your calculations. What p value do you reach?

The scans are not detailed enough to interpret the evidence properly.

What is level of detail is missing. Please be specific.

That does not alter their moral requirement to resist it anymore than some one genetically predisposed to adultery or murder would be expected to master themselves.

Adultary and murder cause harm to others. Homosexuality does not. It just annoys some Christians when people do not follow their rules any more. But they are hypocrits it seems. Where are the medical therapies to cure atheism? Where is pressure to prevent people with tattoos from marrying? Where is the war on shellfish?

The teaching of the church is clear the New Testament does condemn lesbian acts also as a symptom of extreme spiritual degeneration (Romans 1).

Romans 1 is describing the specific case of a pagan rite.

mindlight · Feb 25, 2013

Nick Clegg affirms gay marriage and he's an atheist to boot. What's not to like about the man!? Please pray this man out of office.

Nick Clegg faces claims of cover-up over party 'sex pest' - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Whether or not the above accusations are credible is another question but if they contribute to his political demise then I guess they hold some value.

super animator · Feb 25, 2013

Marius27 said:
I didn't intend on us to go on quite a tangent. I wasn't referring to burden of proof. As was pointed out, proving a negative is impossible. No matter how much falsification you claim, it never proves the negative.

If I say, "Prove Vampires don't exist". We all know what vampires are described as. You can scour the earth in search of them. But you not finding any doesn't prove they don't exist. It merely proves you didn't succeed in finding out whether they exist or not.

I think you miss the point, that I said that people use that as a cop-out of the burden of proof, irregardless if it's true or not. Which I read that way due to reasonable experience. It still exist and it doesn't care that the task is impossible. That the point I was making. Now if you don't intend it as a cop-out, than by all means lets drop this.

super animator · Feb 25, 2013

Dave Ellis said:
That's absolutely correct. However, while there is a methodology you can use to get from here to proving the tooth fairy exists, there is no methodology you can use to prove it absolutely does not. All you can do is rule it out specific instances where it was claimed the tooth fairy was taking part.

In short, the most you are justified in saying is that it's extremely unlikely the Tooth Fairy exists.

Disagree, the problem is that the claim didn't give any exact description of the fairy itself, so how we suppose to prove/disprove it with the lack information provided by the claim itself? You can't do it. The methods doesn't not prove anything considering existence, only the existence of the method itself.
So what is the supposed methodology that verify this existence based on this?

super animator · Feb 25, 2013

mindlight said:
Nick Clegg affirms gay marriage and he's an atheist to boot. What's not to like about the man!? Please pray this man out of office.

Nick Clegg faces claims of cover-up over party 'sex pest' - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Whether or not the above accusations are credible is another question but if they contribute to his political demise then I guess they hold some value.

So you don't care if they true or not, as long they damage his political creditability?
Wow your priorities are messed up.

mindlight · Feb 25, 2013

super animator said:
So you don't care if they true or not, as long they damage his political creditability?
Wow your priorities are messed up.

No that is not what I said as I hope for your sake that you realise. Very often there is not smoke without fire but these accusations remain unproven and possibly false and a man is innocent till proven guilty.

I do not like Nick Clegg or his politics that much is clear- his affirmation of gay marriage and his views on God would be enough for me to see him gone.

But most often in politics the truth is not what destroys a persons career but the way that the lies that most politicians spew are managed by those in the media and in power. If a bad man is removed by a lie I cannot say that is bad thing even if I will not spread the lie that buries him.

God Himself permitted lying spirits to deceive and thereby remove kings.

TheQuietRiot · Feb 25, 2013

mindlight said:
The bible allows for the execution of homosexuals who have practiced gay sex. It also teaches us to be slow to punish a sinner who stands a reasonable chance of being brought to repentance and Gods mercy. This has fed into Christian interpretations of law and governance and explains the tolerance that atheists and other minority groups have enjoyed in most Christian countries over the last 200 years. But at the end of the day there will be an accounting and God will pop all the atheists bubbles of self delusion.

The statistics show only a decline in cultural Christianity not the true church. From your point of view Christians may increasingly come to seem like a starker choice than you are currently prepared to make. When the consequences of godlessness become clear to you I pray you will change your mind. But that cannot happen until your illusions and indeed that of many Christians presentations of the gospel are debunked. As while the love of most grows cold that of God endures forever and He is your only chance to be saved from your sins.

I hope you see sense soon, my noodly lord the flying spagetti monsters mercy is endless but he won't hold out forever you know! Repent now its your only chance to be saved from your sins!

^ That is how ridiculous your preaching sounds to me.

mindlight · Feb 25, 2013

Archaeopteryx said:
Why isn't our consciousness a valid reason to impart significance? As far as we are able to tell, we are the part of the cosmos that is conscious - the conscious cosmos. I'd say that alone is pretty significant. That one part of the cosmos is organised in such a way as to be able to contemplate the entire cosmos, including itself, is pretty amazing.

This is actually in scope for this OP and it is an interesting point and relates I suppose to the real root of the problem I am trying to address here, which goes a lot deeper than gay marriage. The real problem is that we are governed by a nihilistic ammoral elite who merely ride the power trends and who have no grasp of absolute morals at all. Even worse this elite are the mirror reflection of a nation gone bad. Consciousness in such a universe is of what works, the descriptions that one can get away with cause no one seems to know any better. There are no moral limits in such a universe, just matters of reasonable understanding versus unthinkingly held doctrines of thoughtlessness. However to live in such a godless universe does not allow us to find meaning. However curious and searching, our consciousness of the universe cannot provide us with significance by itself. Dimensionally we are small and have a small view of what we see. In terms of intelligence and the quality of our observations we are imprecise and do not really understand the fullness of what we are looking at. What we say is not heard or tested by anyone but ourselves and at the end of the day we cannot bring together even the small amount of knowledge we have collected into a coherent format that addresses all the dimensions of our existence seen and unseen. In such a universe morals are what a community decides is helpful but change as this community changes and as its interests change. We hold morals as lightly as we hold theories, attaching probabilities to their significance, which are miraculously downgraded when we ourselves are faced with moral dilemmas where doing the right thing might actually cost us something.

There are no absolutes in such a universe. Christians believe by contrast that knowing the God who created everything and who has given us a relationship with Himself gives us that point of integration with reality, that works at the deepest possible meaningful level for human beings. It is not our consciousness of the universe that saves us but our acceptance of a relationship with One who know all. It is He who sets us moral boundaries. Boundaries which have a validity which no amount of consciousness will ever undo because they were formed by the one who created us in the first place and knows us better than we will ever know ourselves. We have the ability to test our judgments against the heart of reality and the humility to understand that, while we may never grasp all, we have enough to live as we should in His presence.

"Sodom and Gomorah" Tories /Lib Dems

Dreamer

Contributor

Dreamer

Contributor

Dreamer

Dreamer

Wanderer

Newbie

Contributor

Godspeed, Spacebat

Godspeed, Spacebat

Godspeed, Spacebat

Godspeed, Spacebat

See in the dark

Dreamer

Dreamer

Dreamer

See in the dark

indomitable

See in the dark

Similar threads