"Sodom and Gomorah" Tories /Lib Dems

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Psudopod

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No one gets punched down (harmed) if you allow sex in public --> not approving of allowing sex in public is bigotry.
At least if we're to stay with the "logic" that advocates for SSM have used so far.

1 - the rule is for everyone, not restricted on an arbitrary basis;
2- society does not want children, particularly young children to witness sex acts.

So no, it doesn't stand up.
 
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mindlight

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So Nazi Germany was God's punishment for even the slightest toleration of homosexuality? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

You have misquoted and apparently misunderstood me but Germany was punished for the deeper spiritual degeneration that was evident in both the toleration of homosexuality in the Weimar Republic and the holocaust of the Jews during the time of the Nazis.

You don't seem to be listening. I said that there is no moral reason to oppose SSM. It doesn't cause harm. It doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. It won't lead to a catastrophic decline in the human population. The moral case against it has been debunked time and time again.

But you still miss the point. I understand that you object to the moral cases raised by most religious people against homosexuality. But again and again you have failed to argue a positive case for it. This shows me the emptiness of your position and implies that your real agenda is a rejection of religion and religious values. You war against God but you do not fight for anything positive.
 
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mindlight

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Your interpretation is wrong. You cling to modern day English verses pulled out of context, language, and culture and expect that to settle the issue. It doesn't

Nope, that's condemning pagan prostitution in the temples of the Canaanite gods and doesn't say in Hebrew what it says in English. Try reading in context. And considering you don't follow anything else in the Torah, you have no business using that to condemn gays.

You need to argue with the devout amongst your own people I think who regard homosexuality as abhorrent to God. You remind me of the liberal theologians of the Anglican and Lutheran churches

The orthodox position

This is not the main stream Christian or Jewish position. For a Christian Jude 1 v 7 is an affirmation of the position- the teaching of the reliable churches who have remained true to scripture is unanimous on this.

As I said the threat of sodomy was a symptom of a far deeper spiritual degeneration in this case (and the bible verses I shared allude to the many sins of Sodom and Gomorrah) and yes this was not the only reason the angels destroyed the city. But it was all the evidence that they needed to do the job.
 
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Dave Ellis

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You have misquoted and apparently misunderstood me but Germany was punished for the deeper spiritual degeneration that was evident in both the toleration of homosexuality in the Weimar Republic and the holocaust of the Jews during the time of the Nazis.

And what exactly was God's punishment for the toleration of homosexuals prior to the Nazi era?

And what was the punishment for the Holocaust after the Nazi era?

And assuming there was "punishment", how do you know it came from your God?

But you still miss the point. I understand that you object to the moral cases raised by most religious people against homosexuality. But again and again you have failed to argue a positive case for it. This shows me the emptiness of your position and implies that your real agenda is a rejection of religion and religious values. You war against God but you do not fight for anything positive.


The positive case is they are engaging in consensual behaviour which affects nobody else, and therefore harms nobody else. In a free society, rights are given unless there is really good reason for someone to not be given a right to do something (i.e. Murder). This is usually determined based on demonstrable harm to individuals, or as society as a whole.

Since there is no demonstrable harm, there is no reason to limit or deny these people their rights. The only reason you have is what your religion says, which is irrelevant in this matter.
 
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mindlight

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Yes there is because the exact same arguments used against same-sex marriage were used against interracial marriage. Even the trial judge in Loving v. Virginia used the Bible as justification for his ruling.

As a Jew you are of course on shaky grounds discussing racial discrimination as in the Old Testament it was method that God used to set the Hebrews as a people apart to prevent their intermarriage with the idolatrous surrounding nations. The failure to honour these requirements usually ended badly and Phineas was Gods vengeance on an interrelational marriage in the days of the Jewish theocracy. Indeed, without it, it is doubtful that the integrity of your people would have been preserved through 3000 years of persecution, pogroms and holocausts. But even before the Hebrews in the time of Adam and Eve from whom all races are descended or the time of Noah who is also in the blood line of all the races it was clear that all peoples regardless of race were made in the image of God and aside from the special covenant that God made with the Jews, for the purpose of preparing the way for the Messiah, that would come from them, there are no grounds for racial discrimination. As a Christian I believe that all races have the same potentiality for salvation through Jesus Christ and that people from every tribe and nation will stand before the throne of God and praise Him at the end of time. In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile because the dividing wall of hostility between the 2 has been torn down in those that believe in Him.

I cannot find a legitimate quotation from scripture from the Virginia trial judge you cited but I did find an interpretation of scripture that was patently false and would have been regarded as so by most Christians outside of the American South.

""Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.""

This interpretation seems to ignore the scriptures almost entirely in fact. His views and that of the Virginia state owe more to the fears of white people at the numbers and potential power of a liberated black population and is a throw back to the days of slavery.


Love between 2 consenting adults is not evil. Your demonization of gay people is quite evil though.

No, those are patently stupid analogies. Homosexuality is not unnatural or a perversion. You don't know the meaning of unnatural or homosexuality.
You misquote me if you say I have demonised gay people as they like I are made in the image of God. But homosexual acts are evil and spoil the people that commit them.

The analogy of wife beating or indeed inappropriate behavior with animals fits better than normal hetrosexual marriage and yes the scriptures are clear as mainstream Jews and Christians have always understood.
 
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mindlight

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Something universally found in nature isn't the meaning of natural? What dictionary are you using? I can assure you it has nothing to do with deep spiritual degeneration. Some of the most compassionate, devout people on earth are gay. The only spiritual degeneration I see is from the homophobic bigots. They do not abide by Christ's teachings at all.

I am neither especially afraid of homosexuals or bigoted in my views about them. I am merely speaking with the authority of scripture and refuse to call what is patently evil good. Christ did not teach people to tell lies.

Human beings are not animals and the comparison demeans you. Whatever other qualities a gay person may possess the fact of gay acts does not add to this good impression but rather detracts from it.
 
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mindlight

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Family Research Council is an anti-gay hate group who has never done scientific research and is endorsing Uganda's genocide bill of gay people. The fact that you resort to a group like that to support your views proves you haven't the foggiest clue what you're talking about. Quoting FRC about gays is like quoting Hitler on the value of Jews. Family Research Council is just as evil as Nazis.

The death penalty for homosexual actions is something that the Torah upholds and a great many religious Jews argue for. The people of Uganda are quite clear about the wrongness of homosexual acts and have chosen to deal with it with the death penalty. There is nothing immoral about that.

The Family Research Council are a group of brave souls who stand against the currents of the time and argue the truth.

2 Tim 4 v 2 said:
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
 
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mindlight

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Pot, meet kettle.

We have the direct evidence and observation about the physiology of the brain that results in homosexual tendencies. There is no question it is a physical difference in brain makeup, and it's out of their control for a person to decide what their orientation is.

You are rejecting the direct medical evidence we have in favour of your own ideological presuppositions which have no evidence.

Also, sexuality is a spectrum. There are some people who are 100% straight, or 100% gay, however there's a lot that fall in the middle ranges, and the degrees can vary to any percentage. So, the fact someone may have been in a lesbian relationship and dated a man later isn't out of the question at all, she may have an equal attraction to both sexes.

You have snapshots of the physiology of a person. All people are going to look different in that view. But you ignore the scriptures and the power of God to change a person. A great many peoples testimonies of conversion will honestly describe their struggles and the difficulty of this and of course these confessions are seized on by your so called impartial scientific studies. Even years later when having been married to a member of the opposite sex for more than a decade and having had children by them they will suggest that they still need to make moral choices about their thought life. But the fact remains that they have changed and the transformation is undeniable and more importantly they have said by their actions and by their moral choices that God matters far more to them than the state in which He found them , that they will honour Him with their lives and actions first. In this life they will have struggles but they live for eternity.

Some people may be torn between gay and hetrosexual. I can honestly say I have never entertained a gay thought in my life and it is nonsensical to me. BUt I know others and some of them sincere Christians who clearly have struggled with this. These same people have rebuked me for the things that I sin in and I welcome that as I know that they rebuked me in both truth and love. I would be remiss if I did not return the favour.

Again people are not mere animals and your socalled evidence has been viewed through heavy ideological filters. Everyone is different and the patterns we see in peoples physiologies lack the discriminate detail and understanding to make these firm conclusions that you boast.
 
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mindlight

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I'm not sure how it's relevant to bring up three early popes or the Ethiopian church when talking about the interracial marriage debate of the 20th Century.... Were these popes marrying white women in Alabama?

Also, some Christians did indeed fight against slavery. Many others however fought to continue slavery and both based their arguments off the Bible. Christianity was not some grand unified force against slavery, some of the people who fought hardest to maintain it were very religious Christians.

Homosexuality is a naturally occurring thing. Just because you don't want it to be, doesn't change that fact. There is a mountain of medical and biological evidence to back it.

Provide me with a Christian case for slavery, or racism then and I will show you how you could not support that from scripture and especially the forms of slavery that were practised in the nineteenth century African slave trade. But equally there is no case for homosexual practice in the Bible.
 
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mindlight

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You haven't really listened to what I said. Popular mandate is not the only thing, but governments are there to reprisent the people so should pay attention to public opinion. This can be to show why public opinion is wrong, of course. But it should listen.

So in your view the popular mandate is what drives the discussion and implementation is a matter of simply doing it in a measured way.

It doesn't really demonstrate anything. So many so called ex-gays come out further down the line to say they were simply lying. There's a strong pressure on believers to conform when they're told their mortal soul is on the line. There is also the issue that most humans are likely to have a degree of bisexuality, even if very small so it's not so much a change in orientation but a supression of a part of it.

Even ignoring all that, given that the process is demonstratably harmful and mostly fails, even if it does work for the odd person, should we force people who do not want to change to undergo such a technique?
The process is definitely harmful to ammoral and nihilistic agenda of Liberal Progressives. It is simply being honest to say that people who make these changes struggle with the deep and profound changes and pressures that this brings to psyches that were already fairly established in their patterns. But when they confess these struggles they are being honest. There are ex ex gays and there are ex ex ex gays. It's a process and yes often painful but the assessment of its worth is at the end of the day a moral one and some people do make it cause they see clearly that God is more important than the sins of their youth and the demands of a sinful culture.

Well, no you can't as neither incest nor incestuous marriage are legal. If they were, and both you and your brother wanted this, then I wouldn't personally have any issue with it. But I don't see any reason to support changing the law at the moment.

As above, it comes down to consent. Relationships that are not fully consensual are not moral in my opinion, so any degree of coersion is wrong. This goes for any sort of relationship.
Your only moral limits are in effect consent and whether or not we have entrenched the particular immorality of our age into law yet- good grief!

But there's no evidence to suggest the events decribed in the bible happened, or that homosexuality caused the fall of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The historicity of the Bible is pretty much demonstrated but this would take a whole new OP. I refer you to my previous comments about the fall of Sodom and Gomorrah which your above words indicate you have still not understood.

Why? Most people in the country support SSM. Of those that don't most are happy as long it doesn't affect them (ie no marriage of same sex couples in their church.) The only people unhappy are the ones who wanted to dictate their morality on others and are annoyed this is another area they can no longer do so.

Only Christians who insist on enforcing their morality on others.
Morality is not the will of the people nor is it laws that have ignored Gods will. This is still wrong and those that approve it are cursed by that approval.
 
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Oafman

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The people of Uganda are quite clear about the wrongness of homosexual acts and have chosen to deal with it with the death penalty. There is nothing immoral about that.
There are few things more immoral in the world. It's utterly inhuman.
 
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Creech

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1 - the rule is for everyone, not restricted on an arbitrary basis;
2- society does not want children, particularly young children to witness sex acts.

So no, it doesn't stand up.

1) Everyone must follow the current marriage laws. Heterosexuals cannot enter into SSM. It is a law for everybody.
2) And society also does not want to witness homosexual "marriage".
 
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mindlight

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And what exactly was God's punishment for the toleration of homosexuals prior to the Nazi era?

And what was the punishment for the Holocaust after the Nazi era?

And assuming there was "punishment", how do you know it came from your God?

Germanys punishment was complete devastation and 6 million dead people. the people returned to broken houses in a broken nation. As I said Homosexuality was the tip of the iceberg of evidence of severe spiritual degeneration in the years that had preceded the war.

Yes I believe in a Sovereign God who allows such judgments to fall and I believe that the return of the Jews to israel and the establishment of the state of Israel would probably not have happened without the holocaust and a conservative Evangelical in the White House.

The positive case is they are engaging in consensual behaviour which affects nobody else, and therefore harms nobody else. In a free society, rights are given unless there is really good reason for someone to not be given a right to do something (i.e. Murder). This is usually determined based on demonstrable harm to individuals, or as society as a whole.

Since there is no demonstrable harm, there is no reason to limit or deny these people their rights. The only reason you have is what your religion says, which is irrelevant in this matter.
My wife may consent to my beating her and consider it some kind of thrill , my children may consent to being abused cause they do not know any better and my brother may want to marry me but none of those things are right as any moral person can see. You do not even have to be a Christian to know what I am saying is right about that. That is not a positive case it is an invitation to lawlessness and nihilistic relativism.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I am neither especially afraid of homosexuals or bigoted in my views about them. I am merely speaking with the authority of scripture and refuse to call what is patently evil good. Christ did not teach people to tell lies.

Did you ever stop to think the Scripture might be evil?

Human beings are not animals and the comparison demeans you. Whatever other qualities a gay person may possess the fact of gay acts does not add to this good impression but rather detracts from it.

Humans are indeed part of the animal kingdom. I don't get how you find that demeaning?
 
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Dave Ellis

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The death penalty for homosexual actions is something that the Torah upholds and a great many religious Jews argue for. The people of Uganda are quite clear about the wrongness of homosexual acts and have chosen to deal with it with the death penalty. There is nothing immoral about that.

The Family Research Council are a group of brave souls who stand against the currents of the time and argue the truth.



The same book also says the penalty for being an unruly child is death.

As such, when you were a child I'm sure there were times you were unruly. There is no statute of limitations set out in Jewish law, so I'm assuming you are ok if we take you out to the edge of town and stone you to death for your immorality as a child?
 
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Dave Ellis

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You have snapshots of the physiology of a person. All people are going to look different in that view. But you ignore the scriptures and the power of God to change a person.

I ignore them because there is no evidence your God exists, nor is there any evidence a persons biology has changed because of their religious belief. (Note Biology does not equal Behaviour)

A great many peoples testimonies of conversion will honestly describe their struggles and the difficulty of this and of course these confessions are seized on by your so called impartial scientific studies.

The studies are impartial. Your religious views are not.

Even years later when having been married to a member of the opposite sex for more than a decade and having had children by them they will suggest that they still need to make moral choices about their thought life. But the fact remains that they have changed and the transformation is undeniable and more importantly they have said by their actions and by their moral choices that God matters far more to them than the state in which He found them , that they will honour Him with their lives and actions first. In this life they will have struggles but they live for eternity.

lol, yeah.... and Ted Haggard is completely heterosexual.

"Ted Haggard Is Completely Heterosexual" by Roy Zimmerman - YouTube


Some people may be torn between gay and hetrosexual. I can honestly say I have never entertained a gay thought in my life and it is nonsensical to me. BUt I know others and some of them sincere Christians who clearly have struggled with this. These same people have rebuked me for the things that I sin in and I welcome that as I know that they rebuked me in both truth and love. I would be remiss if I did not return the favour.

On one hand you are saying homosexuals are deserving of the death penalty, and on the other hand you're saying you rebuke them out of truth and love.

:doh:

Again people are not mere animals and your socalled evidence has been viewed through heavy ideological filters. Everyone is different and the patterns we see in peoples physiologies lack the discriminate detail and understanding to make these firm conclusions that you boast.

It's called biology and more specifically, genetics... check it out sometime.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Provide me with a Christian case for slavery, or racism then and I will show you how you could not support that from scripture and especially the forms of slavery that were practised in the nineteenth century African slave trade. But equally there is no case for homosexual practice in the Bible.


There are numerous examples in the Bible which promotes the idea of slavery, and provides rules and regulations on how to go about purchasing and treating slaves.

Hebrew slaves were treated essentially as indentured servants. However, there is a provision that if a master gives his slave a wife, and kids result of the marriage, the choice the person has is to either go free without his family, or to choose to not abandon his family and serve as a slave forever. (Exodus 21:2-6)

Non Hebrew slaves however were governed by Leviticus 25:45-46 in which it's plainly spelled out they are your properly forever, and may be passed on to your descendants as inheritance.

There's a number of other passages which spell out the price of slaves for a given age range and gender, and how you may treat them (for example, you're allowed to beat them as severely as you want, as long as they don't die within 1-2 days of the beating).

As for the New Testament, nowhere does it overturn the rules in favour of slavery, instead there's numerous passages which tell slaves they should serve their masters however the masters see fit.

For example:

Ephesians 6:5 - Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.

1 Peter 2:18 - Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

There's a few more passages that go along the same lines across multiple books if you would like to see them.


So yes, there's a strong Biblical justification for slavery for Jews, and Christians alike.
 
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Dave Ellis

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1) Everyone must follow the current marriage laws. Heterosexuals cannot enter into SSM. It is a law for everybody.
2) And society also does not want to witness homosexual "marriage".


1) Actually, heterosexuals can enter into a same sex marriage. If I wanted to I am perfectly within my right to go marry a guy right now. I don't know why I'd want to, as I am heterosexual, however I do indeed have the right to.

2) Then don't go to a homosexual marriage ceremony.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Germanys punishment was complete devastation and 6 million dead people. the people returned to broken houses in a broken nation. As I said Homosexuality was the tip of the iceberg of evidence of severe spiritual degeneration in the years that had preceded the war.

Then please explain why the other countries in Europe also suffered similar devastation, and catastrophic loss of life when this was an instance of Germany receiving punishment?

And why did this punishment occur over a decade after the fall of the Weimar republic, and after a strongly anti-homosexual government (The Nazis) had been in power?

If this issue was about Homosexuality, then God would have been backing the guys doing their most to limit and kill off the Homosexuals... and I can't imagine you're willing to argue that God was backing the Nazis?

Yes I believe in a Sovereign God who allows such judgments to fall and I believe that the return of the Jews to israel and the establishment of the state of Israel would probably not have happened without the holocaust and a conservative Evangelical in the White House.

So you think God is willing to kill off tens of millions of people on both sides (many of whom I'm sure were just as against homosexuality as you are), just to get the remaining Jews to move to and establish Israel?

My wife may consent to my beating her and consider it some kind of thrill , my children may consent to being abused cause they do not know any better and my brother may want to marry me but none of those things are right as any moral person can see. You do not even have to be a Christian to know what I am saying is right about that. That is not a positive case it is an invitation to lawlessness and nihilistic relativism.

Now please bring up a comparison that doesn't involve harm to one person so you aren't arguing from a position of Red Herrings.
 
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