Flood Conundrum

yeshuasavedme said:

About the thing I said "I do not know what you are talking about", I still don't!

Maybe I try to go too fast for you. Let's just begin here, and check the Torah account with Stephan's excellent heartfelt sermon to the Jews:

Torah.org - The Judaism Site
Is the Torah wrong, Calminian?

Click to expand...

Perhaps you still aren't getting my basic point. According Genesis Abram was 75 years old after Terah's death at age 205.

It doesn't matter how many times Abram left Haran and returned. The Bible is very clear that Abram was born when Terah was 130. It's a fact.

Also, I just noticed that Jasher says Isaac married Rebekah when she was only 10, and even consummated that marriage. Isaac is said to have been 40 when he took her into his tent. Do you buy that?

Calminian said:

Perhaps you still aren't getting my basic point. According the Genesis Abram was 75 years old after Terah's death at age 205.

It doesn't matter how many times Abram left Haran and returned. The Bible is very clear that Abram was born when Terah was 130. It's a fact.

Click to expand...

No, it is not a Bible fact. It is your assumption, and if you did your homework in checking the Genesis record out when it gives ages that correlate, then you would prove it is an assumption, because you can do the records Genesis does give, and work it out to arrive at what Genesis declares, that Abram was born to Terah when Terah was 70 years old. Now that is Bible fact:
to add Haran and Nahor to that in that verse only mentions that they were begotten by Terah, and certainly not when Terah was 70, and you can also prove that by doing searches in the Genesis records and adding them all together -but it is painstaking, as I said, but Jasher does the lists and corroborates and makes clear the years and ages of happenings and events.

Calminian said:

Also, I just noticed that Jasher says Isaac married Rebekah when she was only 10, and even consummated that marriage. Isaac is said to have been 40 when he took her into his tent. Do you buy that?

Click to expand...

The author of Jasher does not buy that. It is a typo. If you really read Jasher through, you will discover that it self corrected in later passages. Rebecca was 14 -in her 15th year- when she married Isaac who was age 40, and yes, the marriage was consummated when Rebecca was 14 years old -in her 15th year.

My own mother married my father one month after she turned 14.

Did you know that there are typos in the Masoretic text? That does not change the message, does it? -Like: how many horses and how many stables did Solomon really have? Did you know Kings says one number and Chronicles says another?

Did Jesus heal two blind men when he healed Bartemas or only Bartemas? Did Jesus deliver two demoniacs of the Gaderenes or just one? Did you kinow that one Gospel says two blind men and one Gospel says two demoniacs? -See how easy it is to turn this back on the OT and NT when you try to take one discrepancy and make a claim for tossing out the entire book as not true?


Check out the fact that Jacob was 56 years older than Leah and Rachel, and were only 14 when Jacob, age 70, loved Rachel and asked for her in marriage and worked seven years for her.
Leah and Rachel were twins, and Laban deceived Jacob and gave him Leah.
Jacob fulfilled her week, and got Rachel one week later, at age 21, but he loved her for 7 years, and was 77 when he married her.
They lived longer back then, and Sarai was so beautiful at age 75 that Abram thought he would be killed for her when he entered Egypt -she must have been a knock-out!

Jasher 24:39,40 And they all blessed the Lord who brought this thing about, and they gave him Rebecca, the daughter of Bethuel, for a wife for Isaac.
And the young woman was of very comely appearance, she was a virgin, and Rebecca was ten years old in those days -typo: she was 14 -self corrected in Jasher 36, below.

Jasher 36:
1 At that time the Lord appeared unto Jacob saying, Arise, go to Bethel and remain there, and make there an altar to the Lord who appeareth unto thee, who delivered thee and thy sons from affliction.
2 And Jacob rose up with his sons and all belonging to him, and they went and came to Bethel according to the word of the Lord.
3 And Jacob was ninety-nine years old when he went up to Bethel, and Jacob and his sons and all the people that were with him, remained in Bethel in Luz, and he there built an altar to the Lord who appeared unto him, and Jacob and his sons remained in Bethel six months.
4 At that time died Deborah the daughter of Uz, the nurse of Rebecca, who had been with Jacob; and Jacob buried her beneath Bethel under an oak that was there.
5 And Rebecca the daughter of Bethuel, the mother of Jacob, also died at that time in Hebron, the same is Kireath-arba, and she was buried in the cave of Machpelah which Abraham had bought from the children of Heth.
6 And the life of Rebecca was one hundred and thirty-three years, and she died and when Jacob heard that his mother Rebecca was dead he wept bitterly for his mother, and made a great mourning for her, and for Deborah her nurse beneath the oak, and he called the name of that place Allon-bachuth.

Calminian said:

Nowhere in scripture does it actually say that. Do you also believe Nahor and Haran were born with Terah was 70?

Terah's genealogy is exactly like noah's genealogy. 3 sons are mentioned when Naoh was 500. But we find out later that Japheth was the oldest and therefore he was the one born when Naoh was 500. Shem was actually born when Noah was 502.

Terah's genealogy is the same construction. Haran Nahor and Abram were begotten when Terah was 70. We later learn that Haran was the oldest, and that Abram was 75 when Terah died at age 205. Stephen confirms that Abram waited for Terah's death before leaving Haran for Canaan (for the last time, if he indeed visited there prior to this).

The only possible way you could have Abram born when Terah was 70 is if he was the firstborn, and even Jasher contradicts this.

It's actually a very easy conclusion to come to. There's nothing painstaking about it.

Thus is Jasher if based on an actual historical manuscript, it's not inerrant. It's not big sea. I don't see why that would bother you unless you have some emotional stake in Jasher being inerrant. Most who believe Jasher is authentic don't believe it is without error.Y You seem to have elevated to being equal in authority with some of the books of the Bible. That's quite a large step from looking it is as a useful history book.

Click to expand...

Actually, you are taking the statement that Abram was born when Terah was 70 years old in the Bible, and making a claim that is not in the Bible anywhere and saying that Terah was actually 135 years old when Abram was born.
If you are going to assume, then at least assume that the Hebrew is written in a way that concludes Terah is through/finished begetting when he is 70.
That will leave you with no biblical difficulties in the places that show Terah to be very much alive when even Isaac is born.

The Book of the Upright Record says:
chapter 21:

5 And Shem and Eber and all the great people of the land, and Abimelech king of the Philistines, and his servants, and Phicol, the captain of his host, came to eat and drink and rejoice at the feast which Abraham made upon the day of his son Isaac's being weaned.
6 Also Terah, the father of Abraham, and Nahor his brother, came from Haran, they and all belonging to them, for they greatly rejoiced on hearing that a son had been born to Sarah.

The Book of Jasher -Upright Record is written as a compliment to the Torah, byt he same person who wrote the Torah, and there is no need to go into the details in the Torah that are gone into in Jasher, and they never, ever, contradict in one single place. Assumptions are made which are proven to be assumptions when one has Jasher, but then, when one sees that in Jasher, they can take the Torah record and "work backward" if you will, to arrive at the dates and ages, and it is painstaking, as I have said..

My daughter [one of them who is 43 years old, now] did a search through Genesis [when she was in her teens] to find out how old Jacob was when he fled to Laban, and how old he was when he married Leah and Rachel. Without Jasher, she painstakingly did that, and found by "detective" work, that Jacob was 69 years old when he fled. She was only off one year.
Usher did the same kind of "detective" work to discover how long Israel was in Egypt, and he arrived at 215 years by that search -I think it was. He was off by only 5 years, but Jasher makes both of those easy to see and prove.

I pasted the Torah link to you link before, where using the Torah, one also arrives at 210 years of Israel in Egypt, which agrees with Jasher, and not all of those years were in slavery, either: So Torah says Israel was in Egypt 210 years, by study of it.
The Upright Record proves to correlate with the Torah on those things, and can be trusted.


Yes, there are typos, most of them are self corrected, as in the age of Rebecca being 14 when she married, but as I pointed out to you, the NT and OT have discrepancies that are not all solved, but the message is not diminished.
Stephen's timeline for Israel in Egypt is proved by, the Torah itself, to be not true; but Stephen was not a false teacher, just not versed in the Upright Record, but in tradition, on that count.


Stephen also was not taught by the Upright Record about Moses in Cush and ruling in Cush for forty years, and having a Cush -ite queen for a wife, which is in the Torah. Zipporah, Moses' wife, was a descendant of Abraham through Keturah, a Midianite woman, and yet, Torah plainly says that Moses had a Cush-ite wife that Miriam and Aaron rose up against him for.


Jasher fills us in on the lives of the Patriarchs and of Moses life, and compliments Torah and is meant to compliment Torah. Torah and Jasher do not contradict one another in any place, but because Jasher had been lost to the west -and most of the east, many assumptions have been made in error, out of ignorance.

2 Samuel I. 18, 19, Behold it is written in the book of Jasher =The Record Upright
Jasher 84:
20 Woe unto thee Moab! thou art lost, O people of Kemosh! behold it is written upon the book of the law of God =Torah.

In Genesis 35:29 Isaac died at age 180.

In Genesis 11:32 Terah died at age 205.


Terah did not die when Abram went out of Canaan, and Isaac did not die before Joseph went into Egypt. Their ages at death are told, but not in chronological order to events which happened after the ages at death are mentioned. Assumptions are made that Isaac died before Joseph went into Egypt and that Terah died before Abraham went out of Canaan, but the records are traceable and prove that both Terah lived on and Isaac lived on, after their ages of death were told. It is like that in the Bible in other places about other events, also. "Its like telescoping to look far out to a mountain peak, then bringing the scope back to look at things near" -Derek Prince"

Gen 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, [being] old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.
Gen 11:32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

Bump. I'm hoping to see this combed over. It addresses many details I've noticed, but never hashed out thoroughly. You two are doing a good job with it!

BluhdoftheLamb said:

Bump. I'm hoping to see this combed over. It addresses many details I've noticed, but never hashed out thoroughly. You two are doing a good job with it!

Click to expand...

Waiting...

Fascinated With God said:

The increase in IQ since the 1800's is well established and is not a revelation: Flynn effect - Wikipedia.

Click to expand...

My dad is older than this recent IQ phenomenon then. It sounds like a statistical error to me.

From your link: "The Flynn effect is the substantial and long-sustained increase in intelligence test scores measured in many parts of the world from roughly 1930 to the present day."