The woman of Revelation 12

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

Yes, the woman is Israel but it is the Israel of God, New-Covenant-believing Israel.

The "fulness of the gentiles" is the "pregnancy". What are we being "grafted" into? (Romans 11) It is the Israel of God, the New Covenant Israel.

The woman's firstborn is the church.

The "barren woman" is the New Covenant. There will be more children of the "barren woman" than of the Old Covenant. This is found in many of the prophets.

Psalm 113:4 The Lord is high above all nations, and his glory above the heavens.
5 Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high,
6 Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth!
7 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill;
8 That he may set him with princes, even with the princes of his people.
9 He maketh the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children. Praise ye the Lord.

Isaiah 54:Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord. 2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Hockey_Fan · Feb 17, 2013

If Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah, there would be no gentile church as we think of it today.

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

Hockey_Fan said:
If Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah, there would be no gentile church as we think of it today.

But that wasn't God's plan. Did you read Romans 11?

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

ebedmelech · Feb 17, 2013

Bethwhite said:
Yes, the woman is Israel but it is the Israel of God, New-Covenant-believing Israel.

I would have to ask you what makes you think so because nothing in Rev 12:1, 2 gives "a great sign". To spiritualize this as the Israel of God should not be done, because the woman is about to give birth to Christ this would only be Israel because the Church is not born yet.

The "fulness of the gentiles" is the "pregnancy". What are we being "grafted" into? (Romans 11) It is the Israel of God, the New Covenant Israel.

The woman's firstborn is the church.

I would ask again on what basis do you spiritualize even further? Nothing brings Romans 11 in view here. Further you're not given any information to make this "the fulness of the Gentiles".

You have been given a "sign"....and Rev 12:5, 6 says the woman "gave birth to a son who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron". The child is then "caught up to God's throne.

That would agree with everything said of Christ after His death on the cross. He ascended to the Right hand of God where He was given all power and authority. It has to be Christ based on Psalm 2.

Believe me Bethwhite, I get the identity of the "Israel of God" as well as the "fulness of the Gentiles"...but I see nothing in Rev 12 that leads to those conclusions. I don't feel there's enough information to come to those conclusions.

Bethwhite said:
The "barren woman" is the New Covenant. There will be more children of the "barren woman" than of the Old Covenant. This is found in many of the prophets.

Psalm 113:4 The Lord is high above all nations, and his glory above the heavens.
5 Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high,
6 Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth!
7 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill;
8 That he may set him with princes, even with the princes of his people.
9 He maketh the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children. Praise ye the Lord.

Isaiah 54:Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord. 2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

I get all that. My question is how do you get there in Rev 12? Because there's nothing to suggest this is the church pregnant with the "fulness of the Gentiles".

I think this I said earlier fits better based on the signs given in the passage:

ebedmelech said:
John has told us this is a "sign"...so we have to understand this sign in scripture.

This has it's referent in the OT. That is why this woman is Israel and we can start with the description of the woman. It starts with Josephs dream in Genesis 37:9, 10:
9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.
10 He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?

The symbols go back to this dream Joseph had:

*"clothed with the sun"...Jacob (who's name is Israel)

*"the moon under her feet"...Rachel

*"a crown of 12 stars"...Joseph and his 11 brothers (from them are the twelve tribes).

Why is this woman Israel? This is God's figurative speech for Israel. This is throughout the OT? This woman (Israel) was chosen as a wife by God several passages make this point.

Jeremiah 3:6-8:
6 Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.
7 I thought, After she has done all these things she will return to Me; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.

This is just one place where Israel is a woman in prophecy.

Rev 12:2:
2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

This is Israel, who is in labor, about to give birth.

I think we have to agree to disagree because I see nothing to draw your conclusion that this is the church.

I think the case for the church is made in Rev 12:17:
17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Since the "woman's children" "hold to the testimony of Jesus", I think them to be the church.

In Rev 12 1, 2 I think you have Jesus coming through the genealogy of Israel...and in Rev 12:4, 5 You have Christ caught up to God taking His authority as Psalm 2 suggest.

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

ebedmelech said:
I would have to ask you what makes you think so because nothing in Rev 12:1, 2 gives "a great sign". To spiritualize this as the Israel of God should not be done, because the woman is about to give birth to Christ this would only be Israel because the Church is not born yet.

Rev 12 is entirely future. Here's how I know:

1. The dragon is described as "seven heads, ten horns" which is an end-times description.
2. There are only two who rule from the throne of God with a rod of iron: Jesus and the church (Rev 2 & 3) but it is only the church that is snatched away and that moment is as the woman is about to give birth.
3. The dragon is cast down to the earth for his "short time" while there are people who are overcomers by the blood of Christ dwelling in heaven, saying that their salvation has now come.
4. The newly snatched manchild speaks in Rev 12, identifying itself as the church (Rev 12:10-12).
5. The woman is fed and protected for 42 months/1260 days from the face of the cast-down devil.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

ebedmelech said:
I think we have to agree to disagree because I see nothing to draw your conclusion that this is the church.

I think the case for the church is made in Rev 12:17:
17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Since the "woman's children" "hold to the testimony of Jesus", I think them to be the church.

In Rev 12 1, 2 I think you have Jesus coming through the genealogy of Israel...and in Rev 12:4, 5 You have Christ caught up to God taking His authority as Psalm 2 suggest.

The woman is the Israel of God, the New Covenant Israel that we have been grafted into.

The manchild that is snatched up as the woman, the New Covenant Israel, is about to give birth is the fulfillment of the New Covenant, the immortal church.

The "rest of her offspring" who "hold to the commandments and the testimony of Jesus" are not her firstborn, but just as it says, the rest of her offspring. They will be overcome by the devil and will be judged by works in the first resurrection of the millennium (Rev 20, Rev 14).

ebedmelech · Feb 17, 2013

Bethwhite said:
Rev 12 is entirely future.

Ok. Now I understand why you hold the view you do.

Bethwhite said:
Here's how I know:

1. The dragon is described as "seven heads, ten horns" which is an end-times description.
2. There are only two who rule from the throne of God with a rod of iron: Jesus and the church (Rev 2 & 3) but it is only the church that is snatched away and that moment is as the woman is about to give birth.
3. The dragon is cast down to the earth for his "short time" while there are people who are overcomers by the blood of Christ dwelling in heaven, saying that their salvation has now come.
4. The newly snatched manchild speaks in Rev 12, identifying itself as the church (Rev 12:10-12).
5. The woman is fed and protected for 42 months/1260 days from the face of the cast-down devil.

I view Revelation. Rev 12 10-12 as celebration of Christ in heaven after His ressurection based on verse 10:

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,“Nowthe salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

That is upon the victory of Christ on the cross, the casting of Satan from heaven in John 12:31, and the ascension of Christ. The tense of the word "Now" ("nyn" in the Greek), and the word's "have come" lead me to that conclusion.

This is simply so the reader can identify the woman and why the next time we read her in Rev 17 she is then apostate Israel who is guilty for the blood of the saints.

Bethwhite said:
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The woman is the Israel of God, the New Covenant Israel that we have been grafted into.

The manchild that is snatched up as the woman, the New Covenant Israel, is about to give birth is the fulfillment of the New Covenant, the immortal church.

The "rest of her offspring" who "hold to the commandments and the testimony of Jesus" are not her firstborn, but just as it says, the rest of her offspring. They will be overcome by the devil and will be judged by works in the first resurrection of the millennium (Rev 20, Rev 14).

I get where you come from now. I hold the only thing remaining to hppen is for Christ to come in judgment.

It' my belief Revelation is about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel by Rome...I don't hold to a future restoration of Israel nor the temple.

The church is the temple God is building upon the apostle and prophets, with Jesus the Chief Cornerstone!

Be blessed sister...we'll "occupy til He comes" and see how it plays out.

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

ebedmelech said:
Ok. Now I understand why you hold the view you do.

I view Revelation. Rev 12 10-12 as celebration of Christ in heaven after His ressurection based on verse 10:

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,Nowthe salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

That is upon the victory of Christ on the cross, the casting of Satan from heaven in John 12:31, and the ascension of Christ. The tense of the word "Now" ("nyn" in the Greek), and the word's "have come" lead me to that conclusion.

This is simply so the reader can identify the woman and why the next time we read her in Rev 17 she is then apostate Israel who is guilty for the blood of the saints.

ok, but let me ask you...can you identify who is speaking in Revelation 12:10-12? Who is that loud voice in heaven? The loud voice in heaven refers to "our brethren" as being those who "overcame by the blood of the Lamb". Who overcomes by the blood of the Lamb?

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Two more questions: Do the dead "overcomers by the blood of the Lamb" get SALVATION apart from the living "overcomers by the blood of the Lamb"?

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by Gods power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

So, how is it that in Revelation 12, the "overcomers by the blood of the Lamb" are in heaven, saying with a loud voice, "NOW IS COME SALVATION"?

I get where you come from now. I hold the only thing remaining to hppen is for Christ to come in judgment.

It' my belief Revelation is about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel by Rome...I don't hold to a future restoration of Israel nor the temple.

The church is the temple God is building upon the apostle and prophets, with Jesus the Chief Cornerstone!

Be blessed sister...we'll "occupy til He comes" and see how it plays out.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

ebedmelech · Feb 17, 2013

Bethwhite said:
ok, but let me ask you...can you identify who is speaking in Revelation 12:10-12? Who is that loud voice in heaven? The loud voice in heaven refers to "our brethren" as being those who "overcame by the blood of the Lamb". Who overcomes by the blood of the Lamb?

I don't think it matters because it is a declaration. There are several "loud voice" announcemants in Revelation.

Bethwhite said:
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Two more questions: Do the dead "overcomers by the blood of the Lamb" get SALVATION apart from the living "overcomers by the blood of the Lamb"?

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by Gods power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

I don't think so. Everyone that is saved, will receive their ultimate salvation when Christ raptures the saved. I would hold to 1 Cor 15:50-57

Bethwhite said:
So, how is it that in Revelation 12, the "overcomers by the blood of the Lamb" are in heaven, saying with a loud voice, "NOW IS COME SALVATION"?

Because "Now" means now. They overcome because "absent from the body present with the Lord". We overcome death and the grave, just as Christ did, and living in the power and obedience to Christ in the body.

*We are all saved.

*We are all being saved.

*We all will be ultimately saved on the last day when we inherit our glorified bodies.

Bethwhite said:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

What this passage is saying is that "all Israel" is all Jewish and Gentile believers. That is the Israel of God as Romans 9:6-8 declares.

Verse 26 is highly misunderstood! The Israel there is not just Jews it is all believers, unless you simply ignore 19-25 which makes Jews and Gentiles "one olive tree". You left those verses out. They are making the case as to who "all Israel" is.

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

ebedmelech said:
I don't think it matters because it is a declaration. There are several "loud voice" announcemants in Revelation.

I don't think so. Everyone that is saved, will receive their ultimate salvation when Christ raptures the saved. I would hold to 1 Cor 15:50-57

Because "Now" means now. They overcome because "absent from the body present with the Lord". We overcome death and the grave, just as Christ did, and living in the power and obedience to Christ in the body.

*We are all saved.

*We are all being saved.

*We all will be ultimately saved on the last day when we inherit our glorified bodies.

What this passage is saying is that "all Israel" is all Jewish and Gentile believers. That is the Israel of God as Romans 9:6-8 declares.

Verse 26 is highly misunderstood! The Israel there is not just Jews it is all believers, unless you simply ignore 19-25 which makes Jews and Gentiles "one olive tree". You left those verses out. They are making the case as to who "all Israel" is.

This is kinda funny.

You understand that salvation comes at the moment of the rapture of the church, which is true. You see that there is something snatched to heaven in Revelation 12. You see that the loud voice in heaven is saying, "now is come salvation"..."for the accuser of our brethren"...brethren who "overcame by the blood of the Lamb" is cast down.

LOL

But you don't quite put two and two together...

I'm sorry, I'm not being mean or anything. It's just that the identity of the manchild is right in front of you.

The manchild is the immortal church, snatched up to the throne of God to rule and reign with Him, at the moment when our salvation comes, as foretold, who in Rev 12, is at that moment, dwelling in heaven and saying, "NOW is come salvation..."for the accuser of OUR BRETHREN"...brethren who "overcame by the blood of the Lamb" is cast down.

Do you see how this is not describing Christ? The loud voice in heaven is the snatched up manchild, the raptured church, which is why there is a reference to "our brethren" and "overcame by the blood of the Lamb" as well as "now is come salvation".

At the time when Christ ascended (not snatched) to heaven, there were no brethren overcomers by the blood of the Lamb in heaven to say those things in Rev 12 because the Lamb's blood had just been spilled!

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

ebedmelech said:
What this passage is saying is that "all Israel" is all Jewish and Gentile believers. That is the Israel of God as Romans 9:6-8 declares.

Verse 26 is highly misunderstood! The Israel there is not just Jews it is all believers, unless you simply ignore 19-25 which makes Jews and Gentiles "one olive tree". You left those verses out. They are making the case as to who "all Israel" is.

Yes, and what I'm trying to get across to you is that the Israel of God, the New Covenant Israel, is the one who gives birth to her first born child - the immortal church!

She is the woman in Rev 12 who is then protected and fed, away from the devil for 42 months, after the fulfillment of the New Covenant to the church!

The rest of her offspring are those who choose to believe after we are snatched up.

Woman = New Covenant Israel
Manchild = immortal, raptured church
Rest of her offspring = those who choose to believe after we are gone.

And no, the woman in Rev 12 is definitely NOT the woman (Mother of harlots) of Rev 17 & 18. The identity of the harlot is also found in Isaiah 47.
The woman in Rev 12 is protected by God from the devil. The woman in Rev 17 is destroyed by the devil whom God uses to destroy her.

rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled

ebedmelech · Feb 17, 2013

Bethwhite said:
This is kinda funny.

You understand that salvation comes at the moment of the rapture of the church, which is true. You see that there is something snatched to heaven in Revelation 12. You see that the loud voice in heaven is saying, "now is come salvation"..."for the accuser of our brethren"...brethren who "overcame by the blood of the Lamb" is cast down.

You're holding Rev 12 as the rapture. I don't. That is why we differ. I hold Rev 12:10-13 as celebration of Christ victory by the cross and the casting down of Satan as John 12:31 says (but we've been through that). I think nothing there hints at that being a rapture at all as I read it.

That will be something we will have to see how it turns out. Simply a difference in our eschatological views.

Bethwhite said:
LOL

But you don't quite put two and two together...

I'm sorry, I'm not being mean or anything. It's just that the identity of the manchild is right in front of you.

It's okay, we learn how we mean things. I believe Paul speaks of salvation in those terms:

Salvation happens the moment we receive Christ "Whoever believes on Jesus HAS everlasting life". That is present tense...at that moment we ARE saved.

As we move forward in salvation we are also being saved through our sanctification, learning to be more like Christ. The Holy Spirit is our pledge or down payment of our salvation. We are being saved.

Our ultimate salvation is at the rapture when we "are changed" receiving our glorified bodies...so we will be saved.

Salvation is a process.

Romnas 8:24 speaks in terms of present salvation:
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Phillipians 2:12 speaks to the sanctification process of salvation:
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Romans 13:11 looks to our ultimate salvation:
Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

Bethwhite said:
The manchild is the immortal church, snatched up to the throne of God to rule and reign with Him, at the moment when our salvation comes, as foretold, who in Rev 12, is at that moment, dwelling in heaven and saying, "NOW is come salvation..."for the accuser of OUR BRETHREN"...brethren who "overcame by the blood of the Lamb" is cast down.

Do you see how this is not describing Christ? The loud voice in heaven is the snatched up manchild, the raptured church which is why there is a reference to "our brethren" and "overcame by the blood of the Lamb" as well as "now is come salvation".

At the time when Christ ascended (not snatched) to heaven, there were no brethren overcomers by the blood of the Lamb in heaven because the Lamb's blood had just been spilled!

No I don't. I shared a short synopsis of what I believe Rev 12 to be saying in post 20 of this thread:

ebedmelech said:
Revelation 12 is revealing a vision. It is not teaching spiritual truths, but revealing Christ.

Therefore when John gives us signs, it is to identify something in the passage. This is not about covenants but signs:

*Rev 12:1 - A great sign appeared in heaven:...

*Rev 12-3 - Then another sign appeared in heaven:...

*Rev 12:7-12 deals with a war in heaven and the winning of that war through the atonement of Christ.

*Rev 12:13-17 deals with Satan and his persecution of the Church.

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

ebedmelech said:
You're holding Rev 12 as the rapture. I don't. That is why we differ. I hold Rev 12:10-13 as celebration of Christ victory by the cross and the casting down of Satan as John 12:31 says (but we've been through that). I think nothing there hints at that being a rapture at all as I read it.

That will be something we will have to see how it turns out. Simply a difference in our eschatological views.

It's okay, we learn how we mean things. I believe Paul speaks of salvation in those terms:

Salvation happens the moment we receive Christ "Whoever believes on Jesus HAS everlasting life". That is present tense...at that moment we ARE saved.

As we move forward in salvation we are also being saved through our sanctification, learning to be more like Christ. The Holy Spirit is our pledge or down payment of our salvation. We are being saved.

Our ultimate salvation is at the rapture when we "are changed" receiving our glorified bodies...so we will be saved.

Salvation is a process.

Romnas 8:24 speaks in terms of present salvation:
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Phillipians 2:12 speaks to the sanctification process of salvation:
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Romans 13:11 looks to our ultimate salvation:
Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

No I don't. I shared a short synopsis of what I believe Rev 12 to be saying in post 20 of this thread:

OK, like you said, we'll just agree to disagree, and see what happens.

I learned a long time ago that it is God that shows people the Truth. He is faithful to teach us when we ask Him.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

You know, Ebedmelech, I just don't understand how you can say that Rev 12:10-12 refers to Jesus when it is a quote, identifying who is speaking. The loud voice is in heaven, referring to itself as "our brethren" as "overcomers by the blood of the Lamb". There wasn't anyone in heaven at the time Christ ascended who could say that!

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

ebedmelech · Feb 17, 2013

Bethwhite said:
Yes, and what I'm trying to get across to you is that the Israel of God, the New Covenant Israel, is the one who gives birth to her first born child - the immortal church!

She is the woman in Rev 12 who is then protected and fed, away from the devil for 42 months, after the fulfillment of the New Covenant to the church!

The rest of her offspring are those who choose to believe after we are snatched up.

Woman = New Covenant Israel
Manchild = immortal, raptured church
Rest of her offspring = those who choose to believe after we are gone.

And no, the woman in Rev 12 is definitely NOT the woman (Mother of harlots) of Rev 17 & 18. The identity of the harlot is also found in Isaiah 47.
The woman in Rev 12 is protected by God from the devil. The woman in Rev 17 is destroyed by the devil whom God uses to destroy her.

rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled

I understand what you're saying Bethwhite, but I just don't agree with that.

You're holding Revelation 12 to be future...but I hold it to only be historical, and revealing truth's about Israel bringing forth Christ, Christ defeating Satan at the cross, and the persecution of the church. I back that with scripture:

Rev 12:1, 2 - Christ coming as Messiah through Israel - (Matthew 1)

Rev 12:3, 4 - Satan, attempt to kill Christ at birth - (Matthew 2:13-18)

Rev 12:5, 6 - A snapshot of Christ birth, His ministry, His ascension - (Psalm 2 and the gospels)

Rev 12:7-9 - The war in heaven, casting Satan out - (John 12:31)

Rev 12:10-12 - The celebration of Christ resurrection and His receiving "all power and authority from God" - (Matthew 28:19, 1 Cor 15:25-28)

Rev 12:13-15 - Satan was defeated at the cross, so now he persecutes the infant Church at Jerusalem (We see this from Acts 2-7 it ends with the stoning of Stephen).

Rev 12:16-17 - Satan having scattered the church from Jerusalem, now does persecutes the church as it spreads from Jerusalem (Acts 8-28)

This would flow with Jesus saying the Church would begin at Jerusalem (Acts 2-7) , then Samaria and all Judea(Acts 8-12), and the ends of the earth (Acts 13-28)...and even up to now and the future.

Rev 17 is apostate Israel (the woman), Rome under the power of Satan (the beast) and they are persecuting the church and destroying Jerusalem...that is the great tribulation in my view.

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

ebedmelech said:
I understand what you're saying Bethwhite, but I just don't agree with that.

You're holding Revelation 12 to be future...but I hold it to only be historical, and revealing truth's about Israel bringing forth Christ, Christ defeating Satan at the cross, and the persecution of the church and I back that with scripture:

Rev 12:1, 2 - Christ coming as Messiah through Israel - (Matthew 1)

Rev 12:3, 4 - Satan, attempt to kill Christ at birth - (Matthew 2:13-18)

Rev 12:5, 6 - A snapshot of Christ birth, His ministry, His ascension - (Psalm 2 and the gospels)

Rev 12:7-9 - The war in heaven, casting Satan out - (John 12:31)

Rev 12:10-12 - The celebration of Christ resurrection and His receiving "all power and authority from God" - (Matthew 28:19, 1 Cor 15:25-28)

Rev 12:13-15 - Satan was defeated at the cross, so now he persecutes the infant Church at Jerusalem (We see this from Acts 2-7 it ends with the stoning of Stephen).

Rev 12:16-17 - Satan having scattered the church from Jerusalem, now does persecutes the church as it spreads from Jerusalem (Acts 8-28)

This would flow with Jesus saying the Church would begin at Jerusalem (Acts 2-7) , then Samaria and all Judea(Acts 8-12), and the ends of the earth (Acts 13-28)...and even up to now and the future.

The problem with that is you are not focusing on the details of Revelation 12. It is definitely a future event- all of it.

If I understand you correctly- to you, Revelation 12 is an brief overview of Church history right smack dab in the middle of major end times prophecy.

It strikes me as odd that you won't address who is speaking in Rev 12:10-12. You know, the "loud voice" in heaven that refers to "our brethren" who have "overcome by the blood of the Lamb".

ebedmelech · Feb 17, 2013

Bethwhite said:
You know, Ebedmelech, I just don't understand how you can say that Rev 12:10-12 refers to Jesus when it is a quote, identifying who is speaking. The loud voice is in heaven, referring to itself as "our brethren" as "overcomers by the blood of the Lamb". There wasn't anyone in heaven at the time Christ ascended who could say that!

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Bethwhite heaven is populated with believers souls...they have no bodies though...read Revelation 7:9-17.

You see, you hold this to be future. I believe the great tribulation happened already, under Emperors Nero, Galba Otho, Vitellius and Vespasian.

Those are the Christian martyrs of that period, which includes Peter and Paul...they are the tribulation saints.

Bethwhite · Feb 17, 2013

ebedmelech said:
Bethwhite heaven is populated with believers souls...they have no bodies though...read Revelation 7:9-17.

You see, you hold this to be future. I believe the great tribulation happened already, under Emperors Nero, Galba Otho, Vitellius and Vespasian.

Those are the Christian martyrs of that period, which includes Peter and Paul...they are the tribulation saints.

Uh, no. Revelation 7 is also referring to the same group of people (raptured church) Do you know how I know?

In Rev 12: The loud voice who refers to "our brethren" who "overcame by the blood of the Lamb" also says NOW IS COME SALVATION while also saying, "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you"!!!!!

In Rev 7: The multitude is also standing in heaven, ALSO PRAISING GOD FOR SALVATION and are are clean "by the blood of the Lamb"!!!!

They are the exact same group of people, the immortal church, just two different descriptions, showing the timing of the rapture!

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by Gods power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time

ebedmelech · Feb 17, 2013

Bethwhite said:
Uh, no. Revelation 7 is also referring to the same group of people (raptured church) Do you know how I know?

In Rev 12: The loud voice who refers to "our brethren" who "overcame by the blood of the Lamb" also says NOW IS COME SALVATION while also saying, "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you"!!!!!

In Rev 7: The multitude is also standing in heaven, ALSO PRAISING GOD FOR SALVATION and are are clean "by the blood of the Lamb"!!!!

They are the exact same group of people, the immortal church, just two different descriptions, showing the timing of the rapture!

No. There's quite a difference in the 2. The group in Rev 7 are saints from the tribulation and the 24 Elders are there also. They are not present in Revelations 12. This is another reason I know 12 has nothing to do with the raptured church. Before the event in Rev 7 the 144,000 are heard being sealed. The 144,000 represent all who are to be saved. John hears them numbered then he turns and looks to see what they represent...a great multitude that no man can number.

Bethwhite said:
1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by Gods power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time

That's right...but it makes no point. The rapture is the last day.

Bethwhite · Feb 18, 2013

ebedmelech said:
No. There's quite a difference in the 2. The group in Rev 7 are saints from the tribulation and the 24 Elders are there also.

And Jesus said the great tribulation began after the desolation of Israel and is cut short before the 6th seal when wrath begins. That's about 2000 years so far.

1Matt 24:5 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (6th seal events!)

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(WRATH BEGINS at the 6th seal - wrath is what we're not appointed to suffer!)

And, the white robes are given in the 5th seal! - the very same white robes that the multitude is wearing in heaven as they praise God for salvation, having come out of the great tribulation, and having washed IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB in Revelation 7!

See how it all fits together so perfectly!

Bible2 · Feb 18, 2013

Bethwhite said in post 1:

The woman of Revelation 12

Her identity is also known as "New Covenant", "Israel of God", "Jerusalem above".

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Regarding "The woman of Revelation 12", she represents the church. She's clothed with the sun (Rev. 12:1) of righteousness (Mal. 4:2) through her faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Rev. 19:8). The moon under her feet (Rev. 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Rom. 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Rev. 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Rev. 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (Mt. 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Cor. 12:28). Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Rev. 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Rev. 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Rev. 14:1,4-5, TR) (like Enoch & Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven: Heb. 11:5, 2 Kin. 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Rev. 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. The remnant of her seed (Rev. 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13).

Bethwhite said in post 1:

Her identity is also known as "New Covenant", "Israel of God", "Jerusalem above".

Regarding "Israel", all those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Rom. 11:1), & all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Rev. 21:9,12, 1 Pet. 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), & the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Jn. 4:22b). Jn. 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-6, Rev. 21:9,12). Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Rom. 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Rom. 2:29, Philip. 3:3, Col. 2:11-13).

Bethwhite said in post 1:

Her identity is also known as "New Covenant", "Israel of God", "Jerusalem above".

Regarding "Jerusalem above", that's the literal city of New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven (Heb. 12:22, Rev. 3:12b).

New Jerusalem is a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Rev. 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Rev. 21:21). It's God the Father's house in the third heaven (Rev. 21:2-3, cf. 2 Cor. 12:2b,4, Rev. 2:7b, 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (Jn. 14:2). All those in the church, both Jews and Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Heb. 12:22-24, Gal. 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4). The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philip. 3:20) and his setting up of his millennial kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the third heaven to the earth until after a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) has been created (Rev. 21:1-4), sometime after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

The woman of Revelation 12

Regular Member

Man of Mystery

Regular Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Regular Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Regular Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Regular Member

Regular Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Regular Member

Regular Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Regular Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Regular Member

My dog Micah in the pic

Regular Member

Bible2

Guest

Similar threads