The woman of Revelation 12

Bethwhite · Feb 15, 2013

Her identity is also known as "New Covenant", "Israel of God", "Jerusalem above".

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Psalm 113:9 He maketh the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children. Praise ye the Lord.

Micah 5:Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

Hockey_Fan · Feb 15, 2013

I believe the woman described is symbolic of Israel (12 stars = 12 tribes). Later in the chapter it describes some of the things that will happen to her, when she is attacked and later saved.

The woman's child could be either Jesus of Nazareth or, more broadly speaking, the Christian church.

JohnRabbit · Feb 15, 2013

Hockey_Fan said:
I believe the woman described is symbolic of Israel (12 stars = 12 tribes). Later in the chapter it describes some of the things that will happen to her, when she is attacked and later saved.

The woman's child could be either Jesus of Nazareth or, more broadly speaking, the Christian church.

you are correct.

notice what joseph said:

Genesis 37:9 (New King James Version)

9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”

a woman in prophecy is a symbol for a church - see rev 12:17.

israel was a type of the church to come - see ex 12:47.

the prophecy in rev 12 starts with the church represented by israel and after "she gives birth" (as Christ was born from the tribe), it talks about the church that Christ built.

Bethwhite · Feb 15, 2013

JohnRabbit said:
you are correct.

notice what joseph said:

Genesis 37:9 (New King James Version)

9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.

a woman in prophecy is a symbol for a church - see rev 12:17.

israel was a type of the church to come - see ex 12:47.

the prophecy in rev 12 starts with the church represented by israel and after "she gives birth" (as Christ was born from the tribe), it talks about the church that Christ built.

The woman is the New Covenant Israel of God, Jerusalem above (Gal 4).

Her first born child is the immortal church, the fulfillment of the New Covenant. Her raptured, immortal child speaks in Rev12.

Rev 12:

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

vinsight4u · Feb 16, 2013

vinsight4u · Feb 16, 2013

vinsight4u · Feb 16, 2013

JohnRabbit · Feb 16, 2013

Bethwhite said:
The woman is the New Covenant Israel of God, Jerusalem above (Gal 4).

Her first born child is the immortal church, the fulfillment of the New Covenant. Her raptured, immortal child speaks in Rev12.

Rev 12:

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

students of bible prophecy generally know that a woman represents a church in prophecy. if you read enough prophecies,which involve a "woman", you will see. as stated in my before post, rev 12:17 shows that the woman is symbolic of a church and in that chapter it is the church of God.

"Her first born child is the immortal church" simply wouldn't fit with rev 12:13, and should be clear that it's a reference to the Christ (see isa 9:6).

"Her raptured, immortal child speaks in Rev12" would also be inconsistent with verse 16, which shows the "woman" receiving refuge on earth.

Bethwhite · Feb 16, 2013

JohnRabbit said:
students of bible prophecy generally know that a woman represents a church in prophecy. if you read enough prophecies,which involve a "woman", you will see. as stated in my before post, rev 12:17 shows that the woman is symbolic of a church and in that chapter it is the church of God.

"Her first born child is the immortal church" simply wouldn't fit with rev 12:13, and should be clear that it's a reference to the Christ (see isa 9:6).

"Her raptured, immortal child speaks in Rev12" would also be inconsistent with verse 16, which shows the "woman" receiving refuge on earth.

How many churches do you think there are?

The church did not give birth to Jesus. Jesus is of Israel.

The woman is symbolic of the Israel of God - New Covenant Israel also known in scripture as "Jerusalem above" (gal 4).

The immortal church, who will be snatched up when we are given our immortality, is what the New Covenant "gives birth" to.

According to Rev 2 and 3, the immortal church sits on the throne of God with Jesus and rules/reigns with a rod of iron.

JohnRabbit · Feb 16, 2013

Bethwhite said:
How many churches do you think there are?

there are many.

just read rev 17!

Bethwhite said:
The church did not give birth to Jesus. Jesus is of Israel.

the congregation of israel, which was a "type of the church" in the physical sense, did give birth to Jesus, the "Man Child", just as prophesied by isaiah 9:6!

Bethwhite said:
The woman is symbolic of the Israel of God - New Covenant Israel also known in scripture as "Jerusalem above" (gal 4).

as stated before, the woman is defined in rev 12:17.

in gal 4, paul was speaking metaphorically not prophetically, which makes your comment out of context!

Bethwhite said:
The immortal church, who will be snatched up when we are given our immortality, is what the New Covenant "gives birth" to.

what i've hightlighted may be true, but during the tribulation, the earth will provide protection for the "woman" - per rev 12:16!

Bethwhite said:
According to Rev 2 and 3, the immortal church sits on the throne of God with Jesus and rules/reigns with a rod of iron.

yes.

Bethwhite · Feb 16, 2013

JohnRabbit said:
there are many.

just read rev 17!

That's the harlot. Are you comparing the mother of all harlots to the Israel of God, the New Covenant? Certainly, they are both described as women but that's the extent of it.

the congregation of israel, which was a "type of the church" in the physical sense, did give birth to Jesus, the "Man Child", just as prophesied by isaiah 9:6!

Jesus is the foundation of the church. The New Covenant promises to the church are what the church is waiting for. The fulfillment of the New Covenant is immortality of the church.

as stated before, the woman is defined in rev 12:17, which makes your comment out of context!

I don't understand how you can say that. Here is Rev 12:17:

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Her first born child is the blood-bought, immortal church snatched to the throne of God. The "remnant of her seed" or "the rest of her offspring" are not said to be blood-bought but have the testimony of Jesus and keep the commandments (works).

How can you say Rev 12:17 defines the woman as the church? The "remnant of her seed" are people who choose to believe after the church is gone. The woman is the Israel of God, the New Covenant.

what i've hightlighted may be true, but during the tribulation, the earth will provide protection for the "woman" - per rev 12:16!

It is during the time of wrath (which we are not appointed to suffer) that the woman, the Israel of God, is protected and fed. The tribulation is over before the 6th seal when wrath begins, according to Jesus.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

JohnRabbit · Feb 16, 2013

Bethwhite said:
That's the harlot. Are you comparing the mother of all harlots to the Israel of God, the New Covenant? Certainly, they are both described as women but that's the extent of it.

this is a prophecy, hence, "woman" is symbolically speaking of a church.

i think we can tell what type of church by the context.

Bethwhite said:
Jesus is the foundation of the church. The New Covenant promises to the church are what the church is waiting for. The fulfillment of the New Covenant is immortality of the church.

so, are you saying that words "church" and "covenant" mean the same thing?

i think webster would disagree!

Bethwhite said:
I don't understand how you can say that. Here is Rev 12:17:

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Her first born child is the blood-bought, immortal church snatched to the throne of God. The "remnant of her seed" or "the rest of her offspring" are not said to be blood-bought but have the testimony of Jesus and keep the commandments (works).

How can you say Rev 12:17 defines the woman as the church? The "remnant of her seed" are people who choose to believe after the church is gone. The woman is the Israel of God, the New Covenant.

her = church

so, who are these people?

they who: "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"!

Bethwhite said:
It is during the time of wrath (which we are not appointed to suffer) that the woman, the Israel of God, is protected and fed. The tribulation is over before the 6th seal when wrath begins, according to Jesus.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

a couple of fundamental questions.

whose wrath?

and...

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you

who are the "you" in this verse?

ebedmelech · Feb 16, 2013

This is what I gain from Rev 12:1, 2

John has given us the symbolism to identify this woman. We cannot just impose on the text...we have to identify the symbols!

Rev 12:1:
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars

John has told us this is a "sign"...so we have to understand this sign in scripture.

This has it's referent in the OT. That is why this woman is Israel and we can start with the description of the woman. It starts with Josephs dream in Genesis 37:9, 10:
9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
10 He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?”

The symbols go back to this dream Joseph had:

*"clothed with the sun"...Jacob (who's name is Israel)

*"the moon under her feet"...Rachel

*"a crown of 12 stars"...Joseph and his 11 brothers (from them are the twelve tribes).

Why is this woman Israel? This is God's figurative speech for Israel. This is throughout the OT? This woman (Israel) was chosen as a wife by God several passages make this point.

Jeremiah 3:6-8:
6 Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.
7 I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.

This is just one place where Israel is a woman in prophecy.

Rev 12:2:
2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

This is Israel, who is in labor, about to give birth.

This is not the church in Rev 12:1, 2. It is Israel about to deliver a child

I think to make this anything else other than Israel is to miss the mark...so if you miss this, as you go forward in Rev 12...you're off track already.

Bethwhite · Feb 16, 2013

ebedmelech said:
This is what I gain from Rev 12:1, 2

John has given us the symbolism to identify this woman. We cannot just impose on the text...we have to identify the symbols!

Rev 12:1:
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars

John has told us this is a "sign"...so we have to understand this sign in scripture.

This has it's referent in the OT. That is why this woman is Israel and we can start with the description of the woman. It starts with Josephs dream in Genesis 37:9, 10:
9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.
10 He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?

The symbols go back to this dream Joseph had:

*"clothed with the sun"...Jacob (who's name is Israel)

*"the moon under her feet"...Rachel

*"a crown of 12 stars"...Joseph and his 11 brothers (from them are the twelve tribes).

Why is this woman Israel? This is God's figurative speech for Israel. This is throughout the OT? This woman (Israel) was chosen as a wife by God several passages make this point.

Jeremiah 3:6:
6 Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.

This is just one place where Israel is a woman in prophecy.

Rev 12:2:
2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

This is Israel, who is in labor, about to give birth.

This is not the church in Rev 12:1, 2. It is Israel about to deliver a child

I think to make this anything else other than Israel is to miss the mark...so if you miss this, as you go forward in Rev 12...you're off track already.

I agree.

But it's not the current earthly nation of Israel. It's the Israel of God, the Israel that we gentiles have been grafted into because of the New Covenant.

Hockey_Fan · Feb 16, 2013

Beth,

There is only one Israel. Not all Israelis are Jews, anymore than all Iranians are Muslim or all Americans are Christians.

But there is only one Israel. Anything else is semantics.

Bethwhite · Feb 16, 2013

Hockey_Fan said:
Beth,

There is only one Israel. Not all Israelis are Jews, anymore than all Iranians are Muslim or all Americans are Christians.

But there is only one Israel. Anything else is semantics.

Read Romans 11.

JohnRabbit · Feb 16, 2013

Bethwhite

Let me draw your attention to Eph 5:25- 27

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might set it apart with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish"

Notice what he presents to himself...a church that is without blemish...

Now over in Rev 19: 6-10 you can read of the marriage supper. Christ is to marry the Church that He presents to himself.

v. 7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

Chirst cant marry a covenant...a covenant is defined as an agreement....when a person marries another it is the persons who are married ...the agreement is just the license...

ebedmelech · Feb 16, 2013

Bethwhite said:
I agree.

But it's not the current earthly nation of Israel. It's the Israel of God, the Israel that we gentiles have been grafted into because of the New Covenant.

I don't agree here Bethwhite. That would be because Rev 12:1, 2 doesn't allow you to go that far.

I think you go only as far as the text does. When the text goes beyond the symbolism, then you do.

Let's look at why in Rev 12:3, 4:
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

Undoubtedly the dragon is Satan. The woman is Israel, who is about to give birth, to which Satan will try to devour her child refers to Satan's attempt to kill Jesus which is in Matthew 2 where Herod made that effort:

13 Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord *appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.”

This is still Israel as the woman, bringing forth her child.

Rev 12:5, 6 will give identity to the child that is born:
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The woman gives birth to the child "who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron"....this can only be Jesus! The term "rule the nations with a rod of iron" only applies to Jesus and His authority. I offer these 2 passages, which refer to Jesus:

*Psalm 2:7-9
7 “I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
8 ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9 ‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”

*Rev 19:15:
From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

This male child is a synopsis of Jesus birth and His ascension to God's throne after His resurrection.
The woman flees into the wilderness as verse 5 says. Is not the wilderness where God confined Israel to before they went into the promised land?

So what you have here is Israel, now in the wilderness to be nourished 1260 days (or 42 months, or time, times and half time), to be nourished. Here we may disagree, but I think this is the start of the church in Israel first after Jesus has ascended.

mog144 · Feb 16, 2013

God wins in the end! Amen!!!

Bethwhite said:
Her identity is also known as "New Covenant", "Israel of God", "Jerusalem above".

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Psalm 113:9 He maketh the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children. Praise ye the Lord.

Micah 5:Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

ebedmelech · Feb 16, 2013

Bethwhite said:
Her identity is also known as "New Covenant", "Israel of God", "Jerusalem above".

This cannot be based on the sign and what it reveals that is not Jerusalem. It is Israel.

Bethwhite said:
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Psalm 113:9 He maketh the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children. Praise ye the Lord.

I love the truth this portion of scripture makes with the allegories of Sarah and Hagar...however I would hold this truth to be wrongly applied in Rev 12.

Revelation 12 is revealing a vision. It is not teaching spiritual truths, but revealing Christ.

Therefore when John gives us signs, it is to identify something in the passage. This is not about covenants but signs:

*Rev 12:1 - A great sign appeared in heaven:...

*Rev 12-3 - Then another sign appeared in heaven:...

*Rev 12:7-12 deals with a war in heaven and the winning of tht war through the atonement of Christ.

*Rev 12:13-17 deals with Satan and his persecution of the Church.

Where I would make application of Bethwhite's Galatians reference would be Revelation 21:10 where it belongs. New Jerusalem is being delivered form heaven and that is what Paul is sharing in Galatians.

I wouldn't apply it to Rev 12 at all.

The woman of Revelation 12

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