DO We Have Free Will?

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bling

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Though this story is much used as a gospel message to the lost, and I have no problem with it being so used, the story itself best describes two sons, both of whom get away from the Father. In other words, they are already sons of the Father when the story commences, whereas the true gospel is brought forth to turn men into sons. So these two better speak of 'Christians' who get away from their Lord, the one more obvious than the other but truly both are at a distance...yet only the one comes to realize it.
The prodigal son being the gentiles and the older son being the Jews might be a better fit. If they are both “Christians” (which I do not have a problem with) you then have another problem since Deity is giving the story using the very best words possible to not be miss understood and Christ puts into the mouth of the Father (we all believe this to be representing God the Father) describing the prodigal son as being “dead” when the Father was well aware the young son was alive. The Father did not say “we thought he was dead”, but said he was “dead”. So in this dead state the prodigal son comes to his senses (no help is seen as coming directly from the Father [like a servant being sent or the brother going after him]).

So a person in a dead state (by Jesus’ definition of dead) can do something like come to his senses.



The "Spirit" is unseen in the story, true, but nevertheless I believe we can see by the eye of faith the Spirit at work in bringing the younger son to his senses, and then using his return to reveal the vacuum that existed in the elder son's heart. The elder son never left in body, but he had in heart.

The Spirit is unseen. Everyone has the Spirit of God at his elbow just waiting and wanting the person to turn toward the Father and will jump in to help him, like the Father did.

There is nothing in the story that suggests the young man was brought to his senses by the Spirit, but does say: he came to his senses and not he was brought to his senses.
 
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AllanV

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I am not sure I am understanding what you have said, but in any case I would like to point out that yes some of us have had a stronger battle to come to Christ then others but Satan's greatest deception is for us to put all the blame on him when it is really our own fault and sin that has deceived us...

Is coming to Christ different to being complete in Christ? If a person gives host to demons and then does those things that are a temptation to do then something has hijacked the will. Christians are seen to do the most atrocious things quite often. In fact they go to war, a type of militant righteousness with all manner of justification.

What is playing out in the mind and is there further to go to being perfect and holy.

There is a method described in scriptures and it was not understood by me until it was completed. There is a much deeper place to go.
There is a block in the mind where it can not be comprehended and this becomes disarmed during the method. The way into the holy place unfolds and the mind adjusts continually in a forward manner if there is no turning back.

The Kingdom of God is here now but no one is taking it up. The Kingdom of God is walking as Jesus did in the anointing. Christ means anointed one. God indwells powerfully and the love of His Son is manifest. There is complete escape from Satan's influence in the personality and the temptations and prompting do not appear in the thoughts of the mind. Only then has this new nature (the same as Jesus) been changed from the rebellious old nature to one acceptable enough for God to dwell within.

The rebellious nature is deeply bonded in the mind by similar emotional responses that are learned from a baby with a genetic influence and biology. The prophet Samuel said to King Saul rebellion is as witchcraft. And this is true. There is some empowerment in the voice using the will to make a point and this is read by a hearer and it can induce feelings. This creates a barrier to knowing God. It is all there right in front of everyone as to what the scriptures are about.

The potential to be immortal cannot be grasped in the mind. Everyone knows they die. Their whole belief is biologically centered for survival and the will is used for protection of the physical and self belief, including ego.

Satan is still active in the mind and has hidden the fact there is further to go to be complete. Even knowing this as a fact it is difficult to achieve.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
 
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Shulamite

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I hope I'm not interjecting something here that is off-topic and if I am, I apologize, but a "thought/question" popped into my head a moment ago as I read the OP's question: "Do we have free will"

Does a man born blind choose to be born blind? As a matter of fact, did a person even choose to be born? Does a cancer patient choose to be diagnosed with cancer? Did a person born with no hearing choose to be deaf? I could go on and on.

When Jesus was confronted with this issue, His disciples said, 'Was this man born blind due to his parents sin or his own sin?" an Jesus said, "This happened so that God's glory could be seen in him." God preordains things (all things) so that HIS GLORY may be seen, whether in something good or bad.

We all want to believe that God is only Sovereignly choosing the "good" things in life to happen for us, but not the bad? Not the trials and hardships as well?

Job 2:10 "Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?"

God ordains the end from the beginning in all things in order that He may be seen and His glory be seen through good and bad.
 
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bling

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Does a man born blind choose to be born blind? As a matter of fact, did a person even choose to be born? Does a cancer patient choose to be diagnosed with cancer? Did a person born with no hearing choose to be deaf? I could go on and on.
I was born without wings so does that mean I do not have free will?

When Jesus was confronted with this issue, His disciples said, 'Was this man born blind due to his parents sin or his own sin?" an Jesus said, "This happened so that God's glory could be seen in him." God preordains things (all things) so that HIS GLORY may be seen, whether in something good or bad.

This world is full of opportunities for True Christians to step up and cease the opportunities to show, express, experience, give, receive and grow Godly type Love, which does not require physical healings. In fact we have all been created handicapped and thus needy people, so is that helpful to us?

We all want to believe that God is only Sovereignly choosing the "good" things in life to happen for us, but not the bad? Not the trials and hardships as well?

Job 2:10 "Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?"

God ordains the end from the beginning in all things in order that He may be seen and His glory be seen through good and bad.
So are you saying a person cannot avoid bringing glory to God?
Is God being glorified no matter what a person does?
 
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pshun2404

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John 6:37
All those the Father gives me will come to Me,
The Father gives Him all who according to His foreknowing He predestined…He foreknew all those who would receive Him and all those who would reject Him

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them…
And likewise He also said that when He was lifted up He would draw ALL men to Him (but unfortunately for them all would not and still will not receive Him….)

John 17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me...Yes and He also prayed for those not given when He said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” (are His prayers not always answered? Yes because He prays God’s will but all will not forgive others which is a pre-requisite for gaining forgiveness)

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not (does not try and obtain by doing the works of the Law), but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,. Yes salvation has always been by grace (for God owes no man anything since we all have sinned) through faith…and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word…who shall believe Paul asks if they have not heard (see Ephesians 1:13). Once the Spirit convicts a man of sin and righteousness the man must respond believing God…

So “his faith is counted for righteousness”. Whose faith? Yes! To as many as received Him He gave the power (the right) to become the children of God. It does not say “to the children of God He gave the power to receive Him”
The true doctrine takes into account all the scriptures and does not pick and choose one extreme and use those scriptures to interpret the others which oppose their view. Now I by the power of God have set before you this day, life and death, blessing and curse….as God says “Choose life”…Yes and He means you must choose, God is not a man that He should lie…

The true doctrine of prestination/election includes free will according to His foreknowing. It does not depend on it but by His sovereign choice determined to include it since before the foundation of the world. Thereby man is responsible for his words and actions…judgment truly is just.

Over 50 scriptures speak of God requiring a response from man...man has to choose which path he will take when God says IF you do this I will do this...but IF you do that, THEN I will do that...Blessing or curse, you choose...these many scriptures (actually many more than fifty, I count nearly 20 just in Genesis) must be reconciled together with scriptures like Romans 8 and don't say "Thats Old Testament" because I was just giving an example, there are many New Testament scriptures which refute the extreme Calvinist view (and I am also not an Arminian). Calvinist or Arminian, if your doctrine must exclude, ignore, or re-interpret the plain grammar of dozens and dozens of scriptures then you are wrong (period). For ALL scripture is God breathed, not just your half...

Love in His name

Paul
 
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Skala

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Over 50 scriptures speak of God requiring a response from man...man has to choose which path he will take when God says IF you do this I will do this...but IF you do that, THEN I will do that...Blessing or curse, you choose...these many scriptures

I agree with this, but I have a few points of response to it

1) Yes, the Bible does urge man to respond. But this in no way implies that man is morally neutral or even that man is naturally inclined towards God. To quote Pyromaniacs blog:

Scripture often calls us to make choices that involve a decision for good rather than evil. That in no way suggests that we are morally neutral, or inclined neither to evil or to good. Choosing "good" goes against the sinner's nature (Romans 8:7-8), so unless God graciously intervenes to awaken and empower us, we will always make the wrong choice (Jeremiah 13:23). And we do so without any external force or compulsion. In that sense our choices are perfectly free. But apart from divine grace we would be hopelessly enslaved to our own lusts (Romans 6:20). So the sinner's "choice," though free in every meaningful sense, is always predictably wrong

2) Yes, The Bible tells us to respond to God. But the question is, when we respond to God, is it because of Grace which is working to bring about our response, or is it because we are more righteous or wise than those who do not respond? Who gets the credit here? God, or ourselves?

3) Point #2 leads me to point #3. In 2 Chronicles 30:1-12 we are told that God sent a messenger out to command repentance. The messenger said things like "return to the Lord" and "do not be stiffnecked like your ancestors" and "if you return, your children will find compassion with their captors" and "if you return to the Lord, the Lord will be merciful and not turn his face away from you".

However, that is not the whole story. In verse 12 we are told that the ones who responded positively to this message did so because the Lord was involved in changing their hearts to do what was commanded of them.

So we see the two-fold story here. Yes, God commands repentance. But also, it is God who gives repentance. It is both. Not either-or.

If anyone denies that both of these truths work together, then they are just plain wrong. Calvinism affirms that God both commands, but also grants what he commands. Calvinism affirms that faith and repentance are gifts from God. If anyone only holds to the idea that God commands repentance, but denies that it is God who also grants repentance, than he/she believes a half-truth and is denying what the Bible plainly teaches. So yes, the Bible does teach that God demands a response from man. But it also teaches that it is God that is to be credited for those positive responses.

If you deny that the reason you are a believer is because God gave you faith as a gift, then at the end of the day it leads to self-righteousness, because the reason you are a believer and not your unbelieving neighbour is because of some good quality in yourself, and not God's grace. If it's not God's grace that made the difference between you and an unbeliever, then that means what made the difference is you, thus leaving you room to boast.
 
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Does a man born blind choose to be born blind? As a matter of fact, did a person even choose to be born? Does a cancer patient choose to be diagnosed with cancer? Did a person born with no hearing choose to be deaf? I could go on and on.

...

In the Eastern beliefs, some would say the man deserves to be blind or deaf due to circumstances or things that happen before birth. God knew you before you were born but you may not remember that. When the disabled goes to a healing group and not get healed on the promises and autosuggestions of Charismatic groups, that person are told that they didn't have enough faith and goes home with a disappointment. We should accept what God gives us according to His Pleasure even if it sounds bad.
 
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elman

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I hope I'm not interjecting something here that is off-topic and if I am, I apologize, but a "thought/question" popped into my head a moment ago as I read the OP's question: "Do we have free will"

Does a man born blind choose to be born blind? As a matter of fact, did a person even choose to be born? Does a cancer patient choose to be diagnosed with cancer? Did a person born with no hearing choose to be deaf? I could go on and on.

When Jesus was confronted with this issue, His disciples said, 'Was this man born blind due to his parents sin or his own sin?" an Jesus said, "This happened so that God's glory could be seen in him." God preordains things (all things) so that HIS GLORY may be seen, whether in something good or bad.

We all want to believe that God is only Sovereignly choosing the "good" things in life to happen for us, but not the bad? Not the trials and hardships as well?

Job 2:10 "Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?"

God ordains the end from the beginning in all things in order that He may be seen and His glory be seen through good and bad.

I am unable to see any glory to God in creating a blind baby.
 
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bling

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I agree with this, but I have a few points of response to it

1) Yes, the Bible does urge man to respond. But this in no way implies that man is morally neutral or even that man is naturally inclined towards God.
The choice does not require man to be neutral even toward God.

Man can take no pride nor is it ever seen as good to: wimp out of the dissevered punishment he has personally gotten himself into. There is no honor from either side of the battle for those that surrender. While man is still seeing God as his enemy, man can still be willing to accept God’s undeserving mercy.



2) Yes, The Bible tells us to respond to God. But the question is, when we respond to God, is it because of Grace which is working to bring about our response, or is it because we are more righteous or wise than those who do not respond? Who gets the credit here? God, or ourselves?
It is because we are wimps and weak to the point we will even accept charity from our enemy.
3) Point #2 leads me to point #3. In 2 Chronicles 30:1-12 we are told that God sent a messenger out to command repentance. The messenger said things like "return to the Lord" and "do not be stiffnecked like your ancestors" and "if you return, your children will find compassion with their captors" and "if you return to the Lord, the Lord will be merciful and not turn his face away from you".
2 Chron. 30: 18 …The good Jehovah pardon every one 19 that setteth his heart to seek God …

That verse is not saying God set their heart but they that set their hearts.


However, that is not the whole story. In verse 12 we are told that the ones who responded positively to this message did so because the Lord was involved in changing their hearts to do what was commanded of them.
Read the whole story: 2 Chr. 30: 11 Nevertheless certain men of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem. 12 Also upon Judah came the hand of God to give them one heart

It does not say God humbled them but they humbled themselves. The unity (one heart) in Judah was the hand of God but that does not say the humility in Judah was by God’s hands.

That message can either be accepted mercifully or as fighting words to make them : “…laughed them to scorn, and mocked them.”


So we see the two-fold story here. Yes, God commands repentance. But also, it is God who gives repentance. It is both. Not either-or.
That is not true: some humbled themselves and others laughed.

If anyone denies that both of these truths work together, then they are just plain wrong. Calvinism affirms that God both commands, but also grants what he commands. Calvinism affirms that faith and repentance are gifts from God. If anyone only holds to the idea that God commands repentance, but denies that it is God who also grants repentance, than he/she believes a half-truth and is denying what the Bible plainly teaches. So yes, the Bible does teach that God demands a response from man. But it also teaches that it is God that is to be credited for those positive responses.
Watch who you are condemning, because those same words might be used against you.

If you deny that the reason you are a believer is because God gave you faith as a gift, then at the end of the day it leads to self-righteousness, because the reason you are a believer and not your unbelieving neighbour is because of some good quality in yourself, and not God's grace. If it's not God's grace that made the difference between you and an unbeliever, then that means what made the difference is you, thus leaving you room to boast.
God provides the ability to trust (faith) to all mature adults, but it is up to them to turn that faith toward God’s Love.
 
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elman

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I agree with this, but I have a few points of response to it

1) Yes, the Bible does urge man to respond. But this in no way implies that man is morally neutral or even that man is naturally inclined towards God. To quote Pyromaniacs blog:



2) Yes, The Bible tells us to respond to God. But the question is, when we respond to God, is it because of Grace which is working to bring about our response, or is it because we are more righteous or wise than those who do not respond? Who gets the credit here? God, or ourselves?

3) Point #2 leads me to point #3. In 2 Chronicles 30:1-12 we are told that God sent a messenger out to command repentance. The messenger said things like "return to the Lord" and "do not be stiffnecked like your ancestors" and "if you return, your children will find compassion with their captors" and "if you return to the Lord, the Lord will be merciful and not turn his face away from you".

However, that is not the whole story. In verse 12 we are told that the ones who responded positively to this message did so because the Lord was involved in changing their hearts to do what was commanded of them.

So we see the two-fold story here. Yes, God commands repentance. But also, it is God who gives repentance. It is both. Not either-or.

If anyone denies that both of these truths work together, then they are just plain wrong. Calvinism affirms that God both commands, but also grants what he commands. Calvinism affirms that faith and repentance are gifts from God. If anyone only holds to the idea that God commands repentance, but denies that it is God who also grants repentance, than he/she believes a half-truth and is denying what the Bible plainly teaches. So yes, the Bible does teach that God demands a response from man. But it also teaches that it is God that is to be credited for those positive responses.

If you deny that the reason you are a believer is because God gave you faith as a gift, then at the end of the day it leads to self-righteousness, because the reason you are a believer and not your unbelieving neighbour is because of some good quality in yourself, and not God's grace. If it's not God's grace that made the difference between you and an unbeliever, then that means what made the difference is you, thus leaving you room to boast.
Jesus seemed to not know about this wisdom of yours that God controls our repentance when He commanded that we repent or perish. If you believe God controls our evil actions, at the end of the day, you have created an evil Creator. But this is not God--God is not evil but good.
 
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Skala

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@ Bing, the word "also" in verse 12 means that what is true of the folks in verse 12 is also true of the folks from verse 11.

In 11 we are told that some people were humbled and obeyed the command
in verse 12 we are told that "God's hand was ALSO on the other people to give them hearts to obey the command"

If his hand was ALSO on group B, that means it was also on Group A. The point is, anyone who obeyed the command to repent did so because God gave them hearts to obey. Plain and simple. God gets the credit. Man does not.

A red flag goes up with anyone comes along trying to give man the credit and find fault for giving God the credit.
 
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elman

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@ Bing, the word "also" in verse 12 means that what is true of the folks in verse 12 is also true of the folks from verse 11.

In 11 we are told that some people were humbled and obeyed the command
in verse 12 we are told that "God's hand was ALSO on the other people to give them hearts to obey the command"

If his hand was ALSO on group B, that means it was also on Group A. The point is, anyone who obeyed the command to repent did so because God gave them hearts to obey. Plain and simple. God gets the credit. Man does not.

A red flag goes up with anyone comes along trying to give man the credit and find fault for giving God the credit.

It is not you giving God the credit for goodness that is the problem. It is you giving God the credit for man's evil.
 
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AllanV

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Jesus seemed to not know about this wisdom of yours that God controls our repentance when He commanded that we repent or perish. If you believe God controls our evil actions, at the end of the day, you have created an evil Creator. But this is not God--God is not evil but good.

Remember the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant that held the testimony.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

For those who overcome, God indwells powerfully and the testimony is now the words when in this completed state.

An act of faith is required to be in the will of God entirely.
 
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AllanV

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2) Yes, The Bible tells us to respond to God. But the question is, when we respond to God, is it because of Grace which is working to bring about our response, or is it because we are more righteous or wise than those who do not respond? Who gets the credit here? God, or ourselves?

However, that is not the whole story. In verse 12 we are told that the ones who responded positively to this message did so because the Lord was involved in changing their hearts to do what was commanded of them.

So we see the two-fold story here. Yes, God commands repentance. But also, it is God who gives repentance. It is both. Not either-or.

If you deny that the reason you are a believer is because God gave you faith as a gift, then at the end of the day it leads to self-righteousness, because the reason you are a believer and not your unbelieving neighbour is because of some good quality in yourself, and not God's grace. If it's not God's grace that made the difference between you and an unbeliever, then that means what made the difference is you, thus leaving you room to boast.

The Holy Spirit is given as a deposit. God draws a person opens their mind up then gives them an amount of his Spirit that is used to respond with. This remains in the person and empowers or energizes a word said in full belief to a hearer who may or may not respond acceptably.
There are some who are called and they have special gifts but Bible history shows they are generally rejected.
 
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AllanV

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In the Eastern beliefs, some would say the man deserves to be blind or deaf due to circumstances or things that happen before birth. God knew you before you were born but you may not remember that. When the disabled goes to a healing group and not get healed on the promises and autosuggestions of Charismatic groups, that person are told that they didn't have enough faith and goes home with a disappointment. We should accept what God gives us according to His Pleasure even if it sounds bad.

With my first knowledge of God most other religions were looked at because it was a powerful experience. While the Bible is definitely the only true source of information the words must be enlivened, given some life by the Holy Spirit. When the Christian Church of various denominations was gone into it became apparent something did not add up.
Many years later the truth has become apparent because fine detail is now understood.

Satan and his demons as related in the scriptures are closer than every one would care to know or understand.
Satan stands in God 's place in the mind and magnifies the self within a personality as opposed to someone else. I'm better than you with out words and shown in the demeanor or body language. Everyone needs to do this for self protection and some say harden up if any weakness is shown.

When people speak their personality is read by others and some energy is passed through on the voice when making their points. This comes from self empowerment and the will is used through own self belief. This is talking off the heart and as Jesus said this defiles or makes a person unclean.

In a Church people sit for some time listening to a speaker who is in their own power. If they totally submit they give up their power or alternatively if they resist they become hardened. Either way barriers are being built to knowing God. Of course the preacher uses applied psychology at this point in an attempt to beat down any dissenters. It is very subtle most times but sometimes blatant.

Rebellious nature is in the self willed and this has all the power of witchcraft as indicated by the Prophet Samuel. Psychology calls this hypnotic suggestion when observing peer pressure in teenagers and attempting to understand it. But in adults it can be much more heavy duty.

The mind is enslaved to play out all those aspects and personality traits that are seen and known. Genetics, life experience and either submitting or being hard when interacting with others locks and sets or fixes the mind. A demon is a fixture of the mind and Satan stands in God's place in the mind within the personality.

It is this realm that brings sickness deformity and final death. When sin was found in Adam even the earth became subject. There is a decay, entropy and oxidizing that also effects the cellular tissue as well as a predatory aspect in all biology. And God gave Adam and Eve coats of animal skin which implies where their biology began. The consciousness of man is also predatory, using the mind, belief and the will to search for weakness in others.

True power from God is able to disarm the powers that hold all people in their sickness but some faith is required and this comes from God as well.
Give all glory to God.
 
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Is coming to Christ different to being complete in Christ? If a person gives host to demons and then does those things that are a temptation to do then something has hijacked the will. Christians are seen to do the most atrocious things quite often. In fact they go to war, a type of militant righteousness with all manner of justification.

What is playing out in the mind and is there further to go to being perfect and holy.

There is a method described in scriptures and it was not understood by me until it was completed. There is a much deeper place to go.
There is a block in the mind where it can not be comprehended and this becomes disarmed during the method. The way into the holy place unfolds and the mind adjusts continually in a forward manner if there is no turning back.

The Kingdom of God is here now but no one is taking it up. The Kingdom of God is walking as Jesus did in the anointing. Christ means anointed one. God indwells powerfully and the love of His Son is manifest. There is complete escape from Satan's influence in the personality and the temptations and prompting do not appear in the thoughts of the mind. Only then has this new nature (the same as Jesus) been changed from the rebellious old nature to one acceptable enough for God to dwell within.

The rebellious nature is deeply bonded in the mind by similar emotional responses that are learned from a baby with a genetic influence and biology. The prophet Samuel said to King Saul rebellion is as witchcraft. And this is true. There is some empowerment in the voice using the will to make a point and this is read by a hearer and it can induce feelings. This creates a barrier to knowing God. It is all there right in front of everyone as to what the scriptures are about.

The potential to be immortal cannot be grasped in the mind. Everyone knows they die. Their whole belief is biologically centered for survival and the will is used for protection of the physical and self belief, including ego.

Satan is still active in the mind and has hidden the fact there is further to go to be complete. Even knowing this as a fact it is difficult to achieve.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
okay you have been taught some falsities that I am going to help you with by sharing some scriptures that will set you free from these falsities... and will also pray that God will open the eyes of your heart so you can see the truths of Christ in scripture... here we go...
Romans 8:1-39
Chapter 8

1 THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.a
2 For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
3 For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],e
4 So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit [our lives governed not by the standards and according to the dictates of the flesh, but controlled by the Holy Spirit].
5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.
6 Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
7 [That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God's Law; indeed it cannot.
8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
9 But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].i
10 But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you].
11 And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh [we are not obligated to our carnal nature], to live [a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates] of the flesh.
13 For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For [the Spirit which] you have now received [is] not a spirit of slavery to put you once more in bondage to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption [the Spirit producing sonship] in [the bliss of] which we cry, Abba (Father)! Father!
16 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.
17 And if we are [His] children, then we are [His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His inheritance with Him]; only we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.
18 [But what of that?] For I consider that the sufferings of this present time (this present life) are not worth being compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us and in us and for us and conferred on us!
19 For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20 For the creation (nature) was subjected to frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it—[yet] with the hope
21 That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22 We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.n
23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God's sons).
24 For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what is still unseen by us, we wait for it with patience and composure.
26 So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance.
27 And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God's will.o
28 We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.
30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].
31 What then shall we say to [all] this? If God is for us, who [can be] against us? [Who can be our foe, if God is on our side?]s
32 He who did not withhold or spare [even] His own Son but gave Him up for us all, will He not also with Him freely and graciously give us all [other] things?
33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect [when it is] God Who justifies [that is, Who puts us in right relation to Himself? Who shall come forward and accuse or impeach those whom God has chosen? Will God, Who acquits us?]
34 Who is there to condemn [us]? Will Christ Jesus (the Messiah), Who died, or rather Who was raised from the dead, Who is at the right hand of God actually pleading as He intercedes for us?
35 Who shall ever separate us from Christ's love? Shall suffering and affliction and tribulation? Or calamity and distress? Or persecution or hunger or destitution or peril or sword?
36 Even as it is written, For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we are regarded and counted as sheep for the slaughter.t
37 Yet amid all these things we are more than conquerors and gain a surpassing victory through Him Who loved us.
38 For I am persuaded beyond doubt (am sure) that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities, nor things impending and threatening nor things to come, nor powers,
39 Nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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bling

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@ Bing, the word "also" in verse 12 means that what is true of the folks in verse 12 is also true of the folks from verse 11.

In 11 we are told that some people were humbled and obeyed the command
in verse 12 we are told that "God's hand was ALSO on the other people to give them hearts to obey the command"

If his hand was ALSO on group B, that means it was also on Group A. The point is, anyone who obeyed the command to repent did so because God gave them hearts to obey. Plain and simple. God gets the credit. Man does not.

A red flag goes up with anyone comes along trying to give man the credit and find fault for giving God the credit.
It would better be translated from the Hebrew as “moreover” like it is used in 2 Ch 12:12.

There were those willing to fight to the death for their freedom and those that were willing to surrender. This is the group of wimps that gave up so I do not see much “credit to be taken in what they did"?
 
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AllanV

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okay you have been taught some falsities that I am going to help you with by sharing some scriptures that will set you free from these falsities... and will also pray that God will open the eyes of your heart so you can see the truths of Christ in scripture... here we go...
Romans 8:1-39
Chapter 8

What do you under stand by Spirit? If the Bible is read long and hard enough you will acquire this.

When 26 years of age a powerful experience opened my mind and I knew what it was about in 5 seconds. The previous night in a dream I stood next to a generator as tall as me. In the mind opening the next day I almost collapsed to the ground. My whole body was energized, every cell. It seemed as though I was being drawn out of my gross body and would cease to exist. God is immediate and makes everything as seen appear at every instant. God is close at hand and stands off from the natural mind but knows each by their inability to measure up and this leads to sin. God's request is to know Him.

Much knowledge came with the experience and the mind of an immortal was shown as a comparison as to how mine did not measure up. I saw my deficiency. Immortality is entirely possible, but not with the natural mind.
Therefore a person must walk in the spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And this takes another mind.

The generator in the dream was symbolic of being caught up and transported.
I had never read the bible and never would have except for the experience.

I have been shown how Satan actively works in the mind and how a rebellious nature bonds family and friends in the mind in unbelief because it is own will not God's will that establishes this connection. It is plain.

This is why people behave so badly

I read the Bible but the depth of the understandings is lost on most people.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

The Love of God is very powerful and is only present in the nature of Jesus and with the same anointing of Christ. God indwells powerfully.
The nature is more gentle than can be comprehended and must be sought and striven for without turning back. There is a renewal in the mind that is a bit unnerving because all old memories of life experiences and bonding in a rebellious nature must go. It is all entirely supernatural and the Spirit leads if the right method is followed. It is all related in scriptures but not understood.

Derek Prince was a good preacher and teacher of the scriptures but he passed away recently. It is all confirmed in scriptures about what was presented to me in my mind before I even read them. I totally believe that Jesus lived and died and His sacrifice has disarmed the principalities and powers giving access to the Kingdom and the indwelling of God and the Love of his Son.

But each individual must bare his own cross and this means to me that the will must be used to deal with some aspects to reach God's will entirely.
 
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jasonsloss

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What do you under stand by Spirit? If the Bible is read long and hard enough you will acquire this.

When 26 years of age a powerful experience opened my mind and I knew what it was about in 5 seconds. The previous night in a dream I stood next to a generator as tall as me. In the mind opening the next day I almost collapsed to the ground. My whole body was energized, every cell. It seemed as though I was being drawn out of my gross body and would cease to exist. God is immediate and makes everything as seen appear at every instant. God is close at hand and stands off from the natural mind but knows each by there inability to measure up and this leads to sin. God's request is to know Him.

Much knowledge came with the experience and the mind of an immortal was shown as a comparison as to how mine did not measure up. I saw my deficiency. Immortality is entirely possible, but not with the natural mind.
Therefore a person must walk in the spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And this takes another mind.

The generator in the dream was symbolic of being caught up and transported.
I had never read the bible and never would have except for the experience.

I have been shown how Satan actively works in the mind and how a rebellious nature bonds family and friends in the mind in unbelief because it is own will not God's will that establishes this connection. It is plain.

This is why people behave so badly

I read the Bible but the depth of the understandings is lost on most people.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

The Love of God is very powerful and is only present in the nature of Jesus and with the same anointing of Christ. God indwells powerfully.
The nature is more gentle than can be comprehended and must be sought and striven for without turning back. There is a renewal in the mind that is a bit unnerving because all old memories of life experiences and bonding in a rebellious nature must go. It is all entirely supernatural and the Spirit leads if the right method is followed. It is all related in scriptures but not understood.

Derek Prince was a good preacher and teacher of the scriptures but he passed away recently. It is all confirmed in scriptures about what was presented to me in my mind before I even read them. I totally believe that Jesus lived and died and His sacrifice has disarmed the principalities and powers giving access to the Kingdom and the indwelling of God and the Love of his Son.

But each individual must bear his own cross and this means to me that the will must be used to deal with some aspects to reach God's will entirely.

do you understand that we can do nothing of ourselves but Christ in us we can accomplish anything...

the cross that one must bear is the deny of oneself and putting Christ first... your sins have been forgiven and there is nothing you can do to earn salvation or convince God you deserve it...

you must trust in Christ with all your heart and it is He who will work in you to create a new man and a life that is pleasing to God...

if you are born again then Satan has no grip on you, so keep your eyes on Christ who sits at the right-hand of God...
 
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AllanV

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do you understand that we can do nothing of ourselves but Christ in us we can accomplish anything...

the cross that one must bear is the deny of oneself and putting Christ first... your sins have been forgiven and there is nothing you can do to earn salvation or convince God you deserve it...

you must trust in Christ with all your heart and it is He who will work in you to create a new man and a life that is pleasing to God...

if you are born again then Satan has no grip on you, so keep your eyes on Christ who sits at the right-hand of God...

One must deny the self and put on the same anointing of Jesus and walk as he did, in God's Love. This is in a gentle nature that cannot be imagined. It unfolds if the scriptures are followed and Christians don't. Of course it is not for children and wives or others for various reasons but if there are no commitments that cannot be taken care of by others everyone should have a try at entering the most Holy Place.

It is a true blessing and would edify by the Spirit.

The mind must be detached from bonding with any unbelief in others. A rebellious nature makes connections and these must be disconnected and this has to be complete. Death is written into the mind of all the unbelieving because this is where sin is hatched up from. The wages of Sin is death.

I stayed in this place a while but came back to my own nature and am not to comfortable in it. It took several months to become well and used to my flesh body again. The Holy Spirit is still active but perhaps I got a foretaste of something better.

I would say I believe but the reality is what do others. There are so many types of Christianity, literally thousands. Many lives are being wrecked by a type of militant mind set and it is not Godly at all. Therefore where is the true Church. It must be hidden.

And the subtlety of Satan and his demons are obvious in Christians because it is easy for them to say they are saved but my contention is that they are not as complete in Christ as they would think. I think perhaps most do not have the Holy Spirit at all.

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The Lord was talking about religious people here.

Bible knowledge is put ahead of the heart and the minds are closed as to how this is necessary and the depth of the Love of God isn't considered because it is impossible to imagine.

I mostly come on a forum to improve my concentration regards writing and focus.

I am a mechanical engineer and have a few inventions I need to get out of the way. Time is short and is it the correct thing to do.
When the first experience occurred a different technology was explained and it exposes a few discrepancies in the present one. This whole system is perpetuated in something like a fraud. Most are struggling with life challenges and the wealth is generated for a few from corrupt ideas. Babylon will fall is falling.

I have been exposed to a lot of death recently and there could be a lot more.

A major war is next it will happen in one hour (6th angel) and unbelieving Christians will not be immune.
 
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