Question for Muslims about 12:109

TG123 · Feb 14, 2013

Assalamu Alaikum, I hope you are doing well.

I was wondering if you could explain how you interpret this verse:

12:109-111

And We have not sent before you but men from (among) the people of the towns, to whom We sent revelations. Have they not then travelled in the land and seen what was the end of those before them? And certainly the abode of the hereafter is best for those who guard (against evil); do you not then understand?

Until when the messengers despaired and the people became sure that they were indeed told a lie, Our help came to them and whom We pleased was delivered; and Our punishment is not averted from the guilty people.

In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.

Surat Yusuf - The Noble Qur'an - Ø§ÙÙØ±Ø¢Ù Ø§ÙÙØ±ÙÙ

Is the bolded part saying that those sent before Muhammad were all men who came from certain towns, or towns in general? Are the "men" messengers? If so, is verse 12:109 saying that all messengers before Muhammad were human beings?

These are the tafsirs I found of the verse, they seem to suggest that all messengers sent before Muhammad were men. Is this a correct understanding?

Shukran in advance

Ibn Abbas

(We sent not before thee) O Muhammad, any messengers (save men whom We inspired) We send Gabriel to them as We sent him to you (from among the folk of the townships) they were related to townships like you. (Have they) the people of Mecca (not travelled in the land and seen) and reflect on (the nature of the consequence for) how was the end result of (those who were before them) among the disbelievers? (And verily the abode of the Hereafter) Paradise, (for those who ward off (evil)) ward off disbelief, idolatry and indecencies and instead believe in Allah, Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an, (is best. Have ye then no sense?) do you not have the common sense to realise that the Hereafter is better than the life of this world; it is also said that this means: have you then no sense to realise that the life of this world is evanescent while the Hereafter is everlasting; it is also said that this means: do you not believe in that which befell the people of old as a result of their disbelief in the messengers?

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

Ibn Jalalayn

And We did not send before you [any messengers] save men inspired by revelation (yūhā ilayhim: a variant reading has nūhī ilayhim, to whom We revealed) and not angels from among the people of the towns, the principal towns, since they are more knowledgeable and wiser than the people of the desert, who are crude and ignorant. Have they, the people of Mecca, not travelled in the land and seen the nature of the consequence for those who were before them?, that is, how they ended up, when they were destroyed for denying their messengers? And verily the abode of the Hereafter, that is, Paradise, is better for those who are wary, of God. Will they not understand? (read a-fa-lā yaqilūn, or a-fa-lā taqilūn. Will you not understand?), this, O people of Mecca, and so have faith?

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

Ibn Kathir

Allah states that He only sent Prophets and Messengers from among men and not from among women, as this Ayah clearly states. Allah did not reveal religious and legislative laws to any woman from among the daughters of Adam. This is the belief of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah. Shaykh Abu Al-Hasan, `Ali bin Isma`il Al-Ash`ari mentioned that it is the view of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah, that there were no female Prophets, but there were truthful believers from among women. Allah mentions the most honorable of the truthful female believers, Maryam, the daughter of `Imran, when He said,

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - All of the Prophets are Humans and Men

Sister of Faith · Feb 14, 2013

All men who were sent before Mohammed (PBUH) were from towns (i.e. not Bedouins).
Allah sent men (and no women).

TG123 · Feb 14, 2013

Sister of Faith said:
All Prophets who were sent before Mohammed (PBUH) were from towns (i.e. not Bedouins).
All of them were men (and no women).

Salaam Alaikum, Sister of Faith,

All prophets, or all messengers? Or are all prophets messengers also?

Thanks and good to hear from you again.

Sister of Faith · Feb 14, 2013

TG123 said:
Salaam Alaikum, Sister of Faith,

All prophets, or all messengers? Or are all prophets messengers also?

Thanks and good to hear from you again.

Salaam TG123
Is this a tricky question?

Sister of Faith · Feb 14, 2013

I have corrected my post. The Quranic verse says "رجالا" which means "men".

TG123 · Feb 14, 2013

Sister of Faith said:
Salaam TG123
Is this a tricky question?

I do have a follow-up question, yes.

Beforee editing your post, you originally wrote:

All Prophets who were sent before Mohammed (PBUH) were from towns (i.e. not Bedouins).
All of them were men (and no women).

You changed the word "Prophets" to "men". There is nothing wrong with that, I edit my posts too.

What I am asking you is this:

Would it be true to say

All Messengers who were sent before Mohammed (PBUH) were from towns (i.e. not Bedouins).
All of them were men (and no women).

or would this only be true of Prophets? Or is there no difference between prophets and messengers?

Thanks so much!

TG123 · Feb 14, 2013

Sister of Faith said:
I have corrected my post. The Quranic verse says "رجالا" which means "men".

Salaam Alaikum, Sister of Faith.

Who were these men? Were they Prophets? Messengers? Warners?

Thank you.

Sister of Faith · Feb 14, 2013

TG123 said:
I do have a follow-up question, yes.

Beforee editing your post, you originally wrote:

All Prophets who were sent before Mohammed (PBUH) were from towns (i.e. not Bedouins).
All of them were men (and no women).

You changed the word "Prophets" to "men". There is nothing wrong with that, I edit my posts too.

What I am asking you is this:

Would it be true to say

All Messengers who were sent before Mohammed (PBUH) were from towns (i.e. not Bedouins).
All of them were men (and no women).

or would this only be true of Prophets? Or is there no difference between prophets and messengers?

Thanks so much!

The verse is about "the messengers". The differences between prophets and messengers are minor differences.
All messengers are prophets but not all prophets are messengers.
May I ask? Have you really understood the text?

TG123 · Feb 14, 2013

Sister of Faith said:
The verse is about "the messengers". The differences between prophets and messengers are minor differences,
May I ask? Have you really understood the text?

The whole point of my introductory post was to make sure I am understanding and not misunderstanding the verse.

This is why I wrote:

Is the bolded part saying that those sent before Muhammad were all men who came from certain towns, or towns in general? Are the "men" messengers? If so, is verse 12:109 saying that all messengers before Muhammad were human beings?

It sounds to me like the verse is saying that before Muhammad, all messengers were men.

Is that correct?

Thank you.

LoveBeingAMuslimah · Feb 14, 2013

Yes, all the Messengers were human men.

TG123 · Feb 14, 2013

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:
Yes, all the Messengers were human men.

Assalamu Alaikum, LoveBeingAMuslimah and Sister of Faith,

If all the messengers were human men, how is it possible that an angel was sent as a messenger to Mary to tell her about the coming of Jesus?

19:16-19

And mention, [O Muhammad], in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.
And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.
She said, "Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, [so leave me], if you should be fearing of Allah ."
He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy."

Surat Maryam - The Noble Qur'an - Ø§ÙÙØ±Ø¢Ù Ø§ÙÙØ±ÙÙ

On an unrelated topic, although I do believe Islam is wrong about denying that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is divine and suffered and died and resurrected for us, I really appreciate the respect He is given and the respect His mother is given in your religion.

Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

Islam_mulia · Feb 14, 2013

TG123 said:
Assalamu Alaikum, LoveBeingAMuslimah and Sister of Faith,

If all the messengers were human men, how is it possible that an angel was sent as a messenger to Mary to tell her about the coming of Jesus?

19:16-19

And mention, [O Muhammad], in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.
And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.
She said, "Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, [so leave me], if you should be fearing of Allah ."
He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy."

Surat Maryam - The Noble Qur'an - Ø§ÙÙØ±Ø¢Ù Ø§ÙÙØ±ÙÙ

Messengers are humans and angeks who were given the revelations of God. The angels were messengers to the prophets, while the human prophets were messengers to the people.

TG123 said:
On an unrelated topic, although I do believe Islam is wrong about denying that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is divine and suffered and died and resurrected for us, I really appreciate the respect He is given and the respect His mother is given in your religion.

Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

This is wrong on the part of Christians themselves. Jesus never claimed to be the son of god (may God cleared him of such accusations) and historically, the crucifixion and resurrection did not happen.

TG123 · Feb 14, 2013

Islam_mulia said:
Messengers are humans and angeks who were given the revelations of God. The angels were messengers to the prophets, while the human prophets were messengers to the people.

Where does the Quran say that angels were messengers to the prophets, while human prophets were messengers to the people?

In any case, notice that the Angel came to Mary. Was Mary a prophet? Certainly not, in fact the verse we examined states very clearly that the prophets were men.

Islam_mulia said:
This is wrong on the part of Christians themselves. Jesus never claimed to be the son of god (may God cleared him of such accusations) and historically, the crucifixion and resurrection did not happen.

He did claim to be the Son of God.

John 10:22-39

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God cameand Scripture cannot be broken36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

The crucifixion of Jesus was not only recorded by the authors of the Gospels and believed by early Christians, but also the Roman historian Tacitus... who was a pagan who hated Christians... confirmed it.

This passage not only confirms the crucifixion of Jesus, but also makes note of the horrific persecution early Christians suffered for their faith.

Tacitus Annals Book 15

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

The Internet Classics Archive | The Annals by Tacitus

LoveBeingAMuslimah · Feb 15, 2013

Ahh, I think you're getting confused with the context/terminology and I think that is also in part due to me.

To nations specifically and mankind in general, our Messengers have only been human men.

1.) The Messengers for mankind have been human men:

And We sent not before you (as Messengers) any but men, whom We inspired from among the people of townships. Have they not travelled through the earth and seen what was the end of those who were before them? And verily, the home of the Hereafter is the best for those who fear Allāh and obey Him (by abstaining from sins and evil deeds, and by performing righteous good deeds). Do you not then understand? (Yusuf 12:109)

And We sent not (as Our Messengers) before you (O Muhammad SAW) any but men, whom We inspired, (to preach and invite mankind to believe in the Oneness of Allāh). So ask of those who know the Scripture [learned men of the Taurāt (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], if you know not. (An-Nahl 16:43)

And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures - the Taurāt (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.

And We did not create them (the Messengers, with) bodies that ate not food, nor were they immortals, (Al-Anbiya 21:7-8)

2.) But Allaah also has Messengers amongst the Angels (they're just not fulfilling the role of Messenger to *us*). This is very clear in the Qur'aan.

We know that there are Messengers among the Angels because:

(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son." (Maryam 19:19)

And verily, there came Our Messengers to Ibrahīm (Abraham) with glad tidings.They said: Salām (greetings or peace!) He answered, Salām (greetings or peace!) and he hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf. (Hud 11:69)

And when Our Messengers came to Lout (Lot), he was grieved on their account and felt himself straitened for them (lest the town people should approach them to commit sodomy with them). He said: "This is a distressful day." (Hud 11:77)

and because:

Allāh chooses Messengers from angels and from men. Verily, Allāh is All-Hearer, All-Seer. (Al-Hajj 22:75)

All the praises and thanks be to Allāh, the (only) Originator [or the (only) Creator] of the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels messengers with wings, - two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Verily, Allāh is Able to do all things. (Fatir 35:1)

3.) They were not sent to mankind as Messengers in the same fashion human Messengers were. We have mortal men as Messengers so we can understand/learn/relate more:

And nothing prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said: "Has Allāh sent a man as (His) Messenger?"

Say: "If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, We should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger." (Al-Isra 17:95)

And they say: "Why has not an angel been sent down to him?" Had We sent down an angel, the matter would have been judged at once, and no respite would be granted to them.

And had We appointed him an angel, We indeed would have made him a man, and We would have certainly caused them confusion in a matter which they have already covered with confusion. (Al-An'am 6:9)

And even if We had sent down unto them angels, and the dead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless Allāh willed, but most of them behave ignorantly. (Al-An'am 6:111)

Anything correct/good I said is from Allaah & anything wrong/bad is from myself or Satan.

SanFrank · Feb 15, 2013

I see the problem is that Biblical scripture is not being used when searching for definitions and explanations. I neither see a christian perspective to this thread but I do see proselytizing the islam religion. And eventhough Islam has Christian roots, its falsehood is seen in its practice. Where is the christian perspective in this thread?

Islam_mulia · Feb 15, 2013

TG123 said:
Where does the Quran say that angels were messengers to the prophets, while human prophets were messengers to the people?

The Quran mentioned Prophets as Messengers that came to Ibrahim (Surah Hud, 69-70), Lut (Surah Hud, 77) and Zakariyyah (Surah Maryam, 7-10).

The angel is identified as the Spirit sent to God's servants:

The Exalter of Ranks, the Lord of the Throne. He casteth the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting, (Surah Ghafir, 15)

As for the Messengers of God to their people:

For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command) "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). (Surah an-Nahl, 16:36)

TG123 said:
In any case, notice that the Angel came to Mary. Was Mary a prophet? Certainly not, in fact the verse we examined states very clearly that the prophets were men.

Some Muslims believe Mary was not a prophet. She did not preach to the people?

TG123 said:
He did claim to be the Son of God.

John 10:22-39

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God cameand Scripture cannot be broken36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

This are some exciting verses and see how some Christians totally misunderstood them.

1. Jesus was accused of blasphemy, of being a god;

2. Jesus defended himself. How? Read carefully how the son of Mary refuted this malicious lie:
2.1 Jesus asked them to refer to the Scripture, Psalm 82:6, where humans (magistrates, representatives of God) were called "GODS".

I said, You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High. (Psalms 82:6)

2.2 Next, Jesus asked them: If, in the Scripture, humans can be called God and that is OK and not blasphemous at all, why "did you say I blasphemed because I said I am the son of God" (John 10:35)

2.3 See how intelligent Jesus' reply was and how some Christians read it in the most unusual way?

TG123 said:
The crucifixion of Jesus was not only recorded by the authors of the Gospels and believed by early Christians, but also the Roman historian Tacitus... who was a pagan who hated Christians... confirmed it.

I wonder who really were the writers of the gospels. Scholars believe the authors were not Mark, Matthew, Luke and John the disciples.

As for Tacitus, let us see..

TG123 said:
This passage not only confirms the crucifixion of Jesus, but also makes note of the horrific persecution early Christians suffered for their faith.

Tacitus Annals Book 15

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

The Internet Classics Archive | The Annals by Tacitus

Tacitus wrote the annals in the second century. In fact, some scholars believe he got his info from a secondary source. Tacitus was merely echoing what the early Christians believe and said. He was not a witness nor was writing around the time of the so-called crucifixion and resurrection.

To prove the crucifixion using Tacitus is not convincing, nor is it historical.

TG123 · Feb 17, 2013

Assalamu Alaikum.

Islam_mulia said:
The Quran mentioned Prophets as Messengers that came to Ibrahim (Surah Hud, 69-70), Lut (Surah Hud, 77) and Zakariyyah (Surah Maryam, 7-10).

The angel is identified as the Spirit sent to God's servants:

The Exalter of Ranks, the Lord of the Throne. He casteth the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting, (Surah Ghafir, 15)

As for the Messengers of God to their people:

For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command) "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). (Surah an-Nahl, 16:36)

Thanks for the quotations, but you haven't answered my question.

Here it is again:

Where does the Quran say that angels were messengers to the prophets, while human prophets were messengers to the people?

Thanks.

Islam_mulia said:
Some Muslims believe Mary was not a prophet. She did not preach to the people?

You said some Muslims believe Mary was not a prophet. Are there any who believe she was a prophet? Does the Quran or hadith list her as one of the prophets?

Islam_mulia said:
[/color]

This are some exciting verses and see how some Christians totally misunderstood them.

1. Jesus was accused of blasphemy, of being a god;

2. Jesus defended himself. How? Read carefully how the son of Mary refuted this malicious lie:
2.1 Jesus asked them to refer to the Scripture, Psalm 82:6, where humans (magistrates, representatives of God) were called "GODS".

I said, You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High. (Psalms 82:6)

2.2 Next, Jesus asked them: If, in the Scripture, humans can be called God and that is OK and not blasphemous at all, why "did you say I blasphemed because I said I am the son of God" (John 10:35)

2.3 See how intelligent Jesus' reply was and how some Christians read it in the most unusual way?

[/color]

Jesus was not accused being a "god", He was accused of saying He is God. He did not say He is not God, He pointed out that people in the past have been called "gods"... not God.

Earlier, He said some things about Himself that indicate His divinity... in the same passage.

What do you think "I and my Father are one" means? Also, what do you think Jesus meant when He said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father?

Has Muhammad ever spoken this way? Did he say "I and Allah are one"? Did he say Allah is his Father? Did Muhammad ever say that those who have seen him have seen Allah?

Did any Old Testament prophet or prophet in the Quran ever say such a thing?

John 14:1-14

14 Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;[a] believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?[b] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.[c] 5 Thomas said to him, Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way? 6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him.
8 Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
12 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.

John 10:22-39

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God cameand Scripture cannot be broken36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Islam_mulia said:
I wonder who really were the writers of the gospels. Scholars believe the authors were not Mark, Matthew, Luke and John the disciples.

Perhaps they were the writers of the Gospels. Perhaps they were unable to write and others wrote down what they said. It isn't that important. What is important is the message.

Islam_mulia said:
As for Tacitus, let us see..

Islam_mulia said:
Tacitus wrote the annals in the second century. In fact, some scholars believe he got his info from a secondary source. Tacitus was merely echoing what the early Christians believe and said. He was not a witness nor was writing around the time of the so-called crucifixion and resurrection.

To prove the crucifixion using Tacitus is not convincing, nor is it historical.

Tacitus was a man who hated Christians and despised them. He is also well known and widely respected for his objectivity. Most scholars accept what he had to say about Jesus, even Bart Ehrman who attacks the Bible whenever he can accepts that He was crucified.

If you want earlier sources, read the Gospels and early church writings. They all confirm Christ's crucifixion (and resurrection also- which Tacitus obviously did not believe in).

You raise an interesting point, though. Tacitus was not an eyewitness to the crucifixion, and so you discount his account even though most historians accept it as genuine.

Who were the biographers of Muhammad? Did they live in his lifetime? Who collected his sayings and hadiths? When did that all happen?

TG123 · Feb 17, 2013

Assalamu Alaikum, LoveBeingAMuslimah.

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:
Ahh, I think you're getting confused with the context/terminology and I think that is also in part due to me.

To nations specifically and mankind in general, our Messengers have only been human men.

1.) The Messengers for mankind have been human men:
And We sent not before you (as Messengers) any but men, whom We inspired from among the people of townships. Have they not travelled through the earth and seen what was the end of those who were before them? And verily, the home of the Hereafter is the best for those who fear Allāh and obey Him (by abstaining from sins and evil deeds, and by performing righteous good deeds). Do you not then understand? (Yusuf 12:109)

And We sent not (as Our Messengers) before you (O Muhammad SAW) any but men, whom We inspired, (to preach and invite mankind to believe in the Oneness of Allāh). So ask of those who know the Scripture [learned men of the Taurāt (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], if you know not. (An-Nahl 16:43)

And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures - the Taurāt (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.

And We did not create them (the Messengers, with) bodies that ate not food, nor were they immortals, (Al-Anbiya 21:7-8)

2.) But Allaah also has Messengers amongst the Angels (they're just not fulfilling the role of Messenger to *us*). This is very clear in the Qur'aan.

We know that there are Messengers among the Angels because:
(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son." (Maryam 19:19)

And verily, there came Our Messengers to Ibrahīm (Abraham) with glad tidings.They said: Salām (greetings or peace!) He answered, Salām (greetings or peace!) and he hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf. (Hud 11:69)

And when Our Messengers came to Lout (Lot), he was grieved on their account and felt himself straitened for them (lest the town people should approach them to commit sodomy with them). He said: "This is a distressful day." (Hud 11:77)

and because:
Allāh chooses Messengers from angels and from men. Verily, Allāh is All-Hearer, All-Seer. (Al-Hajj 22:75)

All the praises and thanks be to Allāh, the (only) Originator [or the (only) Creator] of the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels messengers with wings, - two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Verily, Allāh is Able to do all things. (Fatir 35:1)

3.) They were not sent to mankind as Messengers in the same fashion human Messengers were. We have mortal men as Messengers so we can understand/learn/relate more:
And nothing prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said: "Has Allāh sent a man as (His) Messenger?"

Say: "If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, We should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger." (Al-Isra 17:95)

And they say: "Why has not an angel been sent down to him?" Had We sent down an angel, the matter would have been judged at once, and no respite would be granted to them.

And had We appointed him an angel, We indeed would have made him a man, and We would have certainly caused them confusion in a matter which they have already covered with confusion. (Al-An'am 6:9)

And even if We had sent down unto them angels, and the dead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless Allāh willed, but most of them behave ignorantly. (Al-An'am 6:111)

Anything correct/good I said is from Allaah & anything wrong/bad is from myself or Satan.

Thank you for the explanation, LoveBeingAMuslimah.

Where does the Quran say that, unlike human messengers, angel messengers were not sent to nations?

The verses you posted demonstrate that God sent both angels and men as messengers.

What do you mean by:

But Allaah also has Messengers amongst the Angels (they're just not fulfilling the role of Messenger to *us*). This is very clear in the Qur'aan.

How is it clear that God's messengers among the Angels are not to "us"? If not to us, who were they to?

And how do we know that Angels were not sent to mankind or nations?

According to Muhammad, Gabriel came to teach the people their religion. In Bukhari there is a story of him asking Muhammad about Islam in the presence of others. He left, and then the people Muhammad was with asked Muhammad where he went. Muhammad said this was Gabriel, who came to teach the people their religion.

Sounds to me like he was sent to Muhammad's people.

(2) Narrated Abu Huraira: One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents. 1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master. 2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah. The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith. (Book #2, Hadith #47)

Search the word gabriel teach in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

Islam_mulia · Feb 17, 2013

TG123 said:
Assalamu Alaikum.

Thanks for the quotations, but you haven't answered my question.

Here it is again:

Where does the Quran say that angels were messengers to the prophets, while human prophets were messengers to the people?

Thanks.

You have not read my answers.

1) I have shown that the Quran mentioned that angels came as Messengers to Prophets like Ibrahim, Lut and Zakariyyah.

2) The angels are also identified as the Spirit that were sent as Mesengers to His servants (meaning His prophets):

The Exalter of Ranks, the Lord of the Throne. He casteth the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting, (Surah Ghafir, 15)

3) Every people were each sent a Messenger.

For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command) "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). (Surah an-Nahl, 16:36)

I hope you do not have me to repeat this again.

TG123 said:
You said some Muslims believe Mary was not a prophet. Are there any who believe she was a prophet? Does the Quran or hadith list her as one of the prophets?

There may be some Muslims who thought that Mariam was also a prophet because the Messenger (angel Ganbriel) came to her. This was not clear.

TG123 said:
Jesus was not accused being a "god", He was accused of saying He is God. He did not say He is not God, He pointed out that people in the past have been called "gods"... not God.

1) Ok. Jesus was wrongly accused by the Jews of saying he was god. (May God saved Jesus from such a filty accusation)

2) Yes, people in the past were called Gods. Jesus asked why it is OK for the scripture to call some people Gods and yet it is a blasphemy if Jesus calls himself the 'son of god'? Is this statement correct.

3) If the statement in (3) is wrong, pls explain why it is wrong. If it is correct, why was Jesus wrong to say he was the son of God, when other humans were called Gods in the Torah?

TG123 said:
Earlier, He said some things about Himself that indicate His divinity... in the same passage.

What do you think "I and my Father are one" means? Also, what do you think Jesus meant when He said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father?

Interesting, and I am glad you raise that question.

1) Read John Chapter 10 carefully. Jesus was talking about the 'work' he was doing. It was the work of giving people the eternal life (John 10:28).
What is eternal life?

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

So, eternal life is knowing there is only one God, and Jesus is the one God had sent (the Messenger of God)!

So far, any issue with this?

3) Next, Jesus claimed that his work (giving eternal life) was given to him by God, the Greatest. No one can take that work away from God. His work and God's work is the same (I and the Father are One).

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Fathers hand. 30 I and the Father are one. (John 10)

How would the above implies that "I and the Father" means Jesus is God?

4) "I and the Father" is even christologically contradicting to the definition of the trinity. You believe the three members of the trinity as one. Here, we have only Jesus and the Father. The holy spirit is missing. The trinity with only Jesus and the Father. Surely not!

5) The bible further supports the idea that this "One"ness with God has nothing to do with Oneness in divinity. How then could you explain, Jesus, the Father and the disciples being ONE? Surely, because the disciples were One with the Father, they cannot be divine?

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:21)

TG123 said:
Has Muhammad ever spoken this way? Did he say "I and Allah are one"? Did he say Allah is his Father? Did Muhammad ever say that those who have seen him have seen Allah?

You should read and understand how the language and style of the Quran, the Old Testament and the New Testament are totally different.

In fact, and many Christians may be unaware of this: the writing style of the Gospel of John is totally different from the Synoptic Gospels (Gospels according to Mark Matthew and Luke).

Hence, you can never find Jesus saying "I and the Father are One" in the Mark, Matthew or Luke, although the gospels did mention Jesus proclaiming God is One and He is the one sent by God in the Synoptic Gospels.

Similarly, you can find Jesus proclaiming God is one and he is the messenger of God in the Quran.

TG123 said:
Did any Old Testament prophet or prophet in the Quran ever say such a thing?

My point exactly. Even the Torah would not have the statement "I and the Father are One" because the style of writing in the OT is different from the Gospel of John. That does not mean the Torah does not say that God is One and they were sent by God.

TG123 said:
John 14:1-14

14 Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;[a] believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?[b] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.[c] 5 Thomas said to him, Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way? 6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him.
8 Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
12 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.

1) I have already refuted the "I and the Father are one" argument. Really, you cannot use this statement as evidence of Jesus' proclamation of divinity.

2) As for the statement, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9) are you trying to say that if someone saw Jesus physically, then they have seen the Father "physically"?

Try reading this:
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, (John 5:37)

While people had seen Jesus, nobody has seen the Father. John 14:9 is saying metaphorically, that seeing Jesus' work is the same as seeing God's work.

I believe you are reading and interpreting the bible, dangerously wrong!

TG123 said:
Perhaps they were the writers of the Gospels. Perhaps they were unable to write and others wrote down what they said. It isn't that important. What is important is the message.

Or more likely, as claimed by many biblical scholars, the authors of the 4 gospels were not the disciples Mark, Mathew, Luke and John.

TG123 said:
Tacitus was a man who hated Christians and despised them. He is also well known and widely respected for his objectivity. Most scholars accept what he had to say about Jesus, even Bart Ehrman who attacks the Bible whenever he can accepts that He was crucified.

I did not dispute that Tacitus' writings were not authentic. I said his work was late and he was just writing abiout something the early Christians believe, not that the events actually happened.

As for Bart Ehrman, I think he believe in the historical Jesus. I am not sure that would imply he believe in the crucifixion and resurrection.

TG123 said:
If you want earlier sources, read the Gospels and early church writings. They all confirm Christ's crucifixion (and resurrection also- which Tacitus obviously did not believe in).

Are you saying the bible is historical? Do you have evidence of the earthquake, the saints coming out from the grave, the hours of darkness and the holy of holies being split? All these happen during the crucifixion.

TG123 said:
You raise an interesting point, though. Tacitus was not an eyewitness to the crucifixion, and so you discount his account even though most historians accept it as genuine.

Aye.

TG123 said:
Who were the biographers of Muhammad? Did they live in his lifetime? Who collected his sayings and hadiths? When did that all happen?

If it really satisfies you, pls take note Muslims do not believe the hadith are infallible or divine.

TG123 · Feb 18, 2013

Islam_mulia said:
You have not read my answers.

1) I have shown that the Quran mentioned that angels came as Messengers to Prophets like Ibrahim, Lut and Zakariyyah.

Yes. They also came to Mary, who was not a messenger.

Islam_mulia said:
2) The angels are also identified as the Spirit that were sent as Mesengers to His servants (meaning His prophets):

Islam_mulia said:
The Exalter of Ranks, the Lord of the Throne. He casteth the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting, (Surah Ghafir, 15)

And one also came to Mary.

In fact, one of them taught Islam to Muhammad's companions by quizzing him in front of them! And Muhammad said he came to teach the people their religion! Were Muhammad's companions prophets too?

(2) Narrated Abu Huraira: One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents. 1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master. 2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah. The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith. (Book #2, Hadith #47)

Search the word gabriel teach in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

Islam_mulia said:
3) Every people were each sent a Messenger.

Islam_mulia said:
For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command) "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the people were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom Error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth). (Surah an-Nahl, 16:36)

I hope you do not have me to repeat this again.

You make me repeat myself often, so I hope you don't get annoyed.

The verses below state the Messengers sent by God were human beings, and that they were not any but men.

And We sent not before you (as Messengers) any but men, whom We inspired from among the people of townships. Have they not travelled through the earth and seen what was the end of those who were before them? And verily, the home of the Hereafter is the best for those who fear Allāh and obey Him (by abstaining from sins and evil deeds, and by performing righteous good deeds). Do you not then understand? (Yusuf 12:109)

And We sent not (as Our Messengers) before you (O Muhammad SAW) any but men, whom We inspired, (to preach and invite mankind to believe in the Oneness of Allāh). So ask of those who know the Scripture [learned men of the Taurāt (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], if you know not. (An-Nahl 16:43)

And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder [Scriptures - the Taurāt (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel)] if you do not know.

The problem with this is that even if we assume that there is an exception for angels who were sent to the messengers (the Quran does not say this btw), according to the Quran and sahih hadiths, an angel was also sent as a messenger to Mary and Gabriel appeared to Muhammad and his disciples, and Muhammad later told them that Gabriel came to teach Muhammad's followers their religion.

(1) It is narrated on the authority of Yahya b. Ya'mur that the first man who discussed about Qadr (Divine Decree) in Basra was Ma'bad al-Juhani. I along with Humaid b. 'Abdur-Rahman Himyari set out for prilgrimage or for 'Umrah and said: Should it so happen that we come into contact with one of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) we shall ask him a bout what is talked about Taqdir (Division Decree). Accidentally we came across Abdullah ibn Umar ibn al-Khattab, while he was entering the mosque. My companion and I surrounded him. One of us (stood) on his right and the other stood on his left. I expected that my companion would authorize me to speak. I therefore said: Abu Abdur Rahman! there have appeared some people in our land who recite the Holy Qur'an and pursue knowledge. And then after talking about their affairs, added: They (such people) claim that there is no such thing as Divine Decree and events are not predestined. He (Abdullah ibn Umar) said: When you happen to meet such people tell them that I have nothing to do with them and they have nothing to do with me. And verily they are in no way responsible for my (belief). Abdullah ibn Umar swore by Him (the Lord) (and said): If any one of them (who does not believe in the Divine Decree) had with him gold equal to the bulk of (the mountain) Uhud and then, it (in the way of Allah), Allah would not accept it unless he affirmed his faith in Divine Decree. He further said: My father, Umar ibn al-Khattab, told me: One day we were sitting in the company of Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) when there appeared before us a man dressed in pure white clothes, his hair extraordinarily black. There were no signs of travel on him. None amongst us recognized him. At last he sat with the Apostle (peace be upon him) He knelt before him placed his palms on his thighs and said: Muhammad, inform me about al-Islam. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Al-Islam implies that you testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and you establish prayer, pay Zakat, observe the fast of Ramadan, and perform pilgrimage to the (House) if you are solvent enough (to bear the expense of) the journey. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (Umar ibn al-Khattab) said: It amazed us that he would put the question and then he would himself verify the truth. He (the inquirer) said: Inform me about Iman (faith). He (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you affirm your faith in Allah, in His angels, in His Books, in His Apostles, in the Day of Judgment, and you affirm your faith in the Divine Decree about good and evil. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (the inquirer) again said: Inform me about al-Ihsan (performance of good deeds). He (the Holy Prophet) said: That you worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, for though you don't see Him, He, verily, sees you. He (the enquirer) again said: Inform me about the hour (of the Doom). He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: One who is asked knows no more than the one who is inquiring (about it). He (the inquirer) said: Tell me some of its indications. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and master, that you will find barefooted, destitute goat-herds vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings. He (the narrator, Umar ibn al-Khattab) said: Then he (the inquirer) went on his way but I stayed with him (the Holy Prophet) for a long while. He then, said to me: Umar, do you know who this inquirer was? I replied: Allah and His Apostle knows best. He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: He was gabriel (the angel). He came to you in order to instruct you in matters of religion. (Book #001, Hadith #0001)
Search the word gabriel religion in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

Islam_mulia said:
There may be some Muslims who thought that Mariam was also a prophet because the Messenger (angel Ganbriel) came to her. This was not clear.

Very interesting. Who are these Muslims?

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Islam_mulia said:
1) Ok. Jesus was wrongly accused by the Jews of saying he was god. (May God saved Jesus from such a filty accusation)

This was not a false accusation. He did not deny being God.

Islam_mulia said:
2) Yes, people in the past were called Gods. Jesus asked why it is OK for the scripture to call some people Gods and yet it is a blasphemy if Jesus calls himself the 'son of god'? Is this statement correct.

Islam_mulia said:
3) If the statement in (3) is wrong, pls explain why it is wrong. If it is correct, why was Jesus wrong to say he was the son of God, when other humans were called Gods in the Torah?

Jesus did indeed tell the Jews that people in the past were called gods (not God), then asked why it is blasphemy for Him to say He is the Son of God.

He also said other things about Himself- being one with the Father, saying He will judge the nations, saying those who have seen Him have seen the Father.

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Islam_mulia said:
Interesting, and I am glad you raise that question.

Islam_mulia said:
1) Read John Chapter 10 carefully. Jesus was talking about the 'work' he was doing. It was the work of giving people the eternal life (John 10:28).
What is eternal life?

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

So, eternal life is knowing there is only one God, and Jesus is the one God had sent (the Messenger of God)!

So far, any issue with this?

3) Next, Jesus claimed that his work (giving eternal life) was given to him by God, the Greatest. No one can take that work away from God. His work and God's work is the same (I and the Father are One).

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Fathers hand. 30 I and the Father are one. (John 10)

How would the above implies that "I and the Father" means Jesus is God?

John 10 comes before John 17, so first Jesus said He and the Father are one, then He said that having eternal life is knowing the Father, the one true God, and Jesus Christ.

Let us look at John 17 in more detail, not just verse 3, but the first 5 verses.

John 17:1-5

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Jesus had the glory with the Father before the world came into existence. This would not be true of anyone but God.

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