Casting lots

ananda · Feb 9, 2013

Would you say that the faithful today may and should cast lots to determine YHWH's will, in order to answer difficult questions?

Choosing the sin goat & scapegoat was done by lot (Lev 16:8,9)
YHWH authorized Moses to engage in lot casting in Num 26:55 to divide the land
Joshua cast lots per Jos 18:10 & in determining inheritances (Jos 14:2)
Achan was found by lot casting (Jos 7:16-18)
Saul also cast lots (1Sa 14:41,42)
the general population of Israel cast lots per Neh 11:1
Jonah's shipmates cast lots (Jon 1:7)
The eleven apostles cast lots to add Matthias (Acts 1:26) to their number.
Prov 16:33 suggests that YHWH directs the answer given by lots.

Ebed · Feb 9, 2013

netzarim said:
Would you say that the faithful today may and should cast lots to determine YHWH's will, in order to answer difficult questions?

Choosing the sin goat & scapegoat was done by lot (Lev 16:8,9)
YHWH authorized Moses to engage in lot casting in Num 26:55 to divide the land
Joshua cast lots per Jos 18:10 & in determining inheritances (Jos 14:2)
Achan was found by lot casting (Jos 7:16-18)
Saul also cast lots (1Sa 14:41,42)
the general population of Israel cast lots per Neh 11:1
Jonah's shipmates cast lots (Jon 1:7)
The eleven apostles cast lots to add Matthias (Acts 1:26) to their number.
Prov 16:33 suggests that YHWH directs the answer given by lots.

The hard part is phrasing the question right. The answer you get may not be the question you think you are asking.

Ebed

visionary · Feb 10, 2013

Divination (Qasam) -- Any attempt to foretell the future by use of omens or talismans. This would include common modern methods like the use of tarot cards, palm reading, fortune cookie messages, rolling of dice, throwing of "magic" sticks, reading of the "Eight Ball," etc. A form of divination. Maretsoftware.com

I am wondering if it is the focus rather than the object... for example in all the examples you gave, the people were praying to God to use these objects to help them make a good decision. If a person uses an object to help them make a good decision, like they were expecting the object to have the powers to make that determination, some strange powers of its own...then that is another matter.??

I too have often wondered but do not have a clear answer either...Right now I am throwing mud on the wall to see what sticks.

jehoiakim · Feb 10, 2013

When it came to the decision to buy our house our logic pointed that we should take the offer although it as originally more then we were willing to pay. We e also really felt like we should go ahead, but we had questions if we were pushing it because we really wanted the house. I asked God to be clear if we should or should not buy the house. I didn't hear much. Then we decided we should move ahead and I asked for God to tell me if I should not buy the house. Again, nothing. It was such hard decision I chose to cast lots which fell in favor of purchasing the house. We have been here over a year and so far God has clearly blessed us and this house while we were here. I don't advocate casting lots for every deciosn, but sometimes when you are stuck and you need to make a choice soon either way and their is no clear answer I think it is an acceptable to do.

annier · Feb 10, 2013

netzarim said:
Would you say that the faithful today may and should cast lots to determine YHWH's will, in order to answer difficult questions?

Choosing the sin goat & scapegoat was done by lot (Lev 16:8,9)
YHWH authorized Moses to engage in lot casting in Num 26:55 to divide the land
Joshua cast lots per Jos 18:10 & in determining inheritances (Jos 14:2)
Achan was found by lot casting (Jos 7:16-18)
Saul also cast lots (1Sa 14:41,42)
the general population of Israel cast lots per Neh 11:1
Jonah's shipmates cast lots (Jon 1:7)
The eleven apostles cast lots to add Matthias (Acts 1:26) to their number.
Prov 16:33 suggests that YHWH directs the answer given by lots.

To whom would belong the authority to cast lots? And how would you go about determining their use?
From the Jewish virtual library....
URIM AND THUMMIM (Heb. אוּרִים וְתֻמִּי&#1501

, a priestly device for obtaining oracles. On the high priest's *ephod (an apron-like garment) lay a breastpiece (חֹשֶׁ&#1503

a pouch inlaid with 12 precious stones engraved with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel that held the Urim and Thummim (Ex. 28:1530; Lev. 8:8). By means of the Urim, the priest inquired of YHWH on behalf of the ruler (Num. 27:21; cf. Yoma 7:5, "only for the king, the high court, or someone serving a need of the community"); they were one of the three legitimate means of obtaining oracles in early Israel (Urim, dreams, prophets; I Sam. 28:6). Owing to the oracular character of the Urim, the breastpiece is called "the breastpiece of decision" (חֹשֶׁן הַמִּשְׁפָּ&#1496

. (The concept evokes "the Tablets of Destiny" in Babylonian mythology the symbol of supreme authority that lay on the breast of the chief god; Pritchard, Texts, 63, 67, 111.) The right to work this oracle was reserved for the levitical priests (Deut. 33:8).

ananda · Feb 10, 2013

Ebed said:
The hard part is phrasing the question right. The answer you get may not be the question you think you are asking.

Ebed

'tis true ... I imagine it would involve a precisely specific question, and the willingness to wholeheartedly follow the answer once the lots have been cast.

ananda · Feb 10, 2013

visionary said:
Divination (Qasam) -- Any attempt to foretell the future by use of omens or talismans. This would include common modern methods like the use of tarot cards, palm reading, fortune cookie messages, rolling of dice, throwing of "magic" sticks, reading of the "Eight Ball," etc. A form of divination. Maretsoftware.com

I am wondering if it is the focus rather than the object... for example in all the examples you gave, the people were praying to God to use these objects to help them make a good decision. If a person uses an object to help them make a good decision, like they were expecting the object to have the powers to make that determination, some strange powers of its own...then that is another matter.??

Good observation! I thought about this issue last night, wondering why divination, etc. was forbidden, yet casting lots was acceptable, and what was the difference. You may have hit on the difference - perhaps it is the focus: casting lots for YHWH's answer, whereas other forms of divination, etc. appeal to foreign deities or demonic spirits for an answer?!

I too have often wondered but do not have a clear answer either...Right now I am throwing mud on the wall to see what sticks.

Is that a form of casting lots?

ananda · Feb 10, 2013

jehoiakim said:
When it came to the decision to buy our house our logic pointed that we should take the offer although it as originally more then we were willing to pay. We e also really felt like we should go ahead, but we had questions if we were pushing it because we really wanted the house. I asked God to be clear if we should or should not buy the house. I didn't hear much. Then we decided we should move ahead and I asked for God to tell me if I should not buy the house. Again, nothing. It was such hard decision I chose to cast lots which fell in favor of purchasing the house. We have been here over a year and so far God has clearly blessed us and this house while we were here. I don't advocate casting lots for every deciosn, but sometimes when you are stuck and you need to make a choice soon either way and their is no clear answer I think it is an acceptable to do.

May I ask, how did you specifically go about casting lots for your answer?

ananda · Feb 10, 2013

annier said:
To whom would belong the authority to cast lots? And how would you go about determining their use? ... By means of the Urim, the priest inquired of YHWH on behalf of the ruler (Num. 27:21 ...The right to work this oracle was reserved for the levitical priests (Deut. 33:8).

Interestingly, in Num 27:21, Eleazar the priest was allowed to handle the Urim & Thummim (also note that he was not the high priest at the time, I believe). I'm not sure Deu 33:8 specifically restricts this to Levitical priests, but to the לאיש חסידך ('iysh chasideka), the "holy or godly man" ...

I suppose it could be reasoned that all the faithful today are priests and set-apart ones (1Pe 2:5, 2:9; Rev 1:6; 5:10; cf Ex 19:6)?

jehoiakim · Feb 10, 2013

Honestly I don't remember, I think I used a handful of coins

visionary · Feb 10, 2013

netzarim said:
Good observation! I thought about this issue last night, wondering why divination, etc. was forbidden, yet casting lots was acceptable, and what was the difference. You may have hit on the difference - perhaps it is the focus: casting lots for YHWH's answer, whereas other forms of divination, etc. appeal to foreign deities or demonic spirits for an answer?!

Is that a form of casting lots?

it was the forum wall I was referring to, and if the idea stuck in other minds as applicable to this question...

love you too... ^_^

There is a whole area of nebulus paraphernalia when it comes to this subject like..

Astrology (Onan) -- Astrology or the use of illusions as magic (even if the participants know that the "tricks" are illusions) which is a form of divination.

Superstitions (Nachash) -- To foretell the future by personal experience or by diligent observance. This includes all superstitions -- both those that are longstanding folklores and personal superstitions that are created either spontaneously or by previous experience which is another form of divination.

Casting Spells (Qasaph) -- The casting of spells. The attempt to "make" things happen by saying words (and, potentially, performing other acts of a religious nature) which is like saying Hail Mary 3 times while sprinkling water which to me is a form of divination.

Charming (Chover chaver) -- Charm with words. To quote sayings or phrases that are designed to alter one's mental state regarding some bad or good thing and yet we do this everyday now that psychology is the new business game, new relationship game, etc which again to me is another form of divination.

Medium for the Dead (Ov) -- Contacting a medium for the purposes of coming in contact with a dead human ghost which comes from believing a lie that the dead continue to live on in the spirit and we can talk to them. Like they know more dead than they ever knew while alive....it to me is the worse divination.

ananda · Feb 10, 2013

visionary said:
it was the forum wall I was referring to, and if the idea stuck in other minds as applicable to this question... love you too...

Oh ok

There is a whole area of nebulus paraphernalia when it comes to this subject like..

Astrology (Onan) -- Astrology or the use of illusions as magic (even if the participants know that the "tricks" are illusions) which is a form of divination.

Superstitions (Nachash) -- To foretell the future by personal experience or by diligent observance. This includes all superstitions -- both those that are longstanding folklores and personal superstitions that are created either spontaneously or by previous experience which is another form of divination.

Casting Spells (Qasaph) -- The casting of spells. The attempt to "make" things happen by saying words (and, potentially, performing other acts of a religious nature) which is like saying Hail Mary 3 times while sprinkling water which to me is a form of divination.

Charming (Chover chaver) -- Charm with words. To quote sayings or phrases that are designed to alter one's mental state regarding some bad or good thing and yet we do this everyday now that psychology is the new business game, new relationship game, etc which again to me is another form of divination.

Medium for the Dead (Ov) -- Contacting a medium for the purposes of coming in contact with a dead human ghost which comes from believing a lie that the dead continue to live on in the spirit and we can talk to them. Like they know more dead than they ever knew while alive....it to me is the worse divination.

As you pointed out, the focus is different with these techniques ... and it's important to not cross into these areas if we do engage in casting lots?

ananda · Feb 10, 2013

jehoiakim said:
Honestly I don't remember, I think I used a handful of coins

No problem ...

The reason for my forum question is due to the fact that my wife and I are considering casting lots to find YHWH's will for our lives. We feel as if we've been stuck in a deep rut with heavy difficulties for the last 5 years with no answers & little light at the end of the tunnel.

annier · Feb 10, 2013

netzarim said:
Interestingly, in Num 27:21, Eleazar the priest was allowed to handle the Urim & Thummim (also note that he was not the high priest at the time, I believe).

Why do you believe he was not high priest at the time?
Num 27:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Get thee up into this mount Abarim, and see the land which I have given unto the children of Israel.
13 And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered.
Nu 20:25 Take Aaron and Eleazar his son, and bring them up unto mount Hor:
Nu 20:26 And strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son: and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there.
Nu 20:28 And Moses stripped Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son; and Aaron died there in the top of the mount: and Moses and Eleazar came down from the mount.

Mazock · Feb 10, 2013

netzarim said:
No problem ...

The reason for my forum question is due to the fact that my wife and I are considering casting lots to find YHWH's will for our lives. We feel as if we've been stuck in a deep rut with heavy difficulties for the last 5 years with no answers & little light at the end of the tunnel.

Be vary wary of trying to force YHWHs hand.

ananda · Feb 10, 2013

annier said:
netzarim said:

Interestingly, in Num 27:21, Eleazar the priest was allowed to handle the Urim & Thummim (also note that he was not the high priest at the time, I believe).
Why do you believe he was not high priest at the time?
Num 27:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Get thee up into this mount Abarim, and see the land which I have given unto the children of Israel.
13 And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered.
Nu 20:25 Take Aaron and Eleazar his son, and bring them up unto mount Hor:
Nu 20:26 And strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son: and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there.
Nu 20:28 And Moses stripped Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son; and Aaron died there in the top of the mount: and Moses and Eleazar came down from the mount.

Click to expand...

Oops, you're right! Eleazar was the High Priest. Thanks for the correction.

Even with that said, Num 27:21 does not restrict the casting of lots to only the High Priest (and even then, it is questionable if the Urim was indeed the one and only method of casting lots). As my OP pointed out, it is recorded that many other individuals also cast lots for YHWH's guidance.

ananda · Feb 10, 2013

Mazock said:
Be vary wary of trying to force YHWHs hand.

Yes, thank you for the good advice. Perhaps if we do cast lots, the first question might be "Should we continue to cast lots for Your guidance?"

annier · Feb 10, 2013

netzarim said:
Oops, you're right! Eleazar was the High Priest. Thanks for the correction.

Even with that said, Num 27:21 does not restrict the casting of lots to only the High Priest (and even then, it is questionable if the Urim was indeed the one and only method of casting lots). As my OP pointed out, it is recorded that many other individuals also cast lots for YHWH's guidance.

Who else cast lots?

ananda · Feb 10, 2013

annier said:
Who else cast lots?

Prophets, the apostles, kings, general people, etc.

This leads me to believe that "casting lots" is different than utilizing the Urim & Thummim, which may have been restricted to the High Priest?

annier · Feb 10, 2013

netzarim said:
Prophets, the apostles, kings, general people, etc.

This leads me to believe that "casting lots" is different than utilizing the Urim & Thummim, which may have been restricted to the High Priest?

I should have posted the enitre article I suppose. Which left no doubt that casting lots was the right of the Levites. While they may have been at the disposal of the rulers, it was through the agency of the priest in his vestments. As consulting the ephod, or alternatively the breastplate of decicison. Making such decisions beyond reproach, as to whom had made the decision.

Casting lots

Early Buddhist

Active Member

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Servant

annier

Guest

Early Buddhist

Early Buddhist

Early Buddhist

Early Buddhist

Servant

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Early Buddhist

Early Buddhist

annier

Guest

Non-Pauline Believer in Yeshua

Early Buddhist

Early Buddhist

annier

Guest

Early Buddhist

annier

Guest

Similar threads