Is David Cameron the worst PM ever?

BurningKnight · Feb 5, 2013

Nah, I think Gordon Brown was the worst PM ever...

mindlight · Feb 6, 2013

This is how they voted. The majority of the Tory party opposed it which indicates to me that it may still have a future but only after the current leadership is disposed of and that usually occurs after electoral defeat. But this is an electoral disaster for the Tories as at the constituency level they have lost many of their staff. Many people in the country do not care but the ones who do are Tories and they are now passionately opposed to this government.

Psudopod · Feb 6, 2013

OK. So? you asked how they are different, and I obliged. Heterosexuality is the foundation of the human species. That is a difference. The fact that some orthosexual couples do not have kids does not change the difference cited: it is the foundation of the species. Homosexuality is not. Comparing the two, as if they were somehow equal, is downright offensive.

Two things.

One, being homosexual does not imply infertility. Even if every single person in the world was homosexual, it does not mean that the race would be wiped out. There would still be children, just the family structure would be different. That's by the by, as there seems no evidence to suggest more than a small portion of the population is gay.

Two, you cannot claim X is a difference between groups A and B if X appears in groups A and B. You cannot say for example, these horses are different to those horses because these horses are grey and those horses are brown, if some of those horses are also grey.
Likewise, not having children is not a difference between same sex and opposite sex couples because not all opposite sex couples have children. There is no consistant difference beyond the gender of the couples.

You haven't read the best research. The best research shows that growing up with aberrosexual parents causes all kinds of problems. Kids deserve a mom and dad.

Lesbian mothers, gay fathers, and their ... [J Dev Behav Pediatr. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
Children of lesbian and gay parents. [Child Dev. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI
[Homosexual parenthood and child development: pres... [Encephale. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI
Lesbian families and family functioning: ... [Patient Educ Couns. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
Children of gay or lesbian parents. [Pediatr Rev. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

Not sure if serious...

Yes serious. The only way you can claim the yin and yang thing is that if you are claiming there is all women are essentially alike, and that alikeness is opposite to the alikeness of all men. Whereas any experience shows that people are all very different. Two people of the same gender can complement each other just as well as two people of the opposite gender because it is down to personality.

I believe you mean 'etymology'. But, since you say that:

Yes, sorry, errant spellchecker.

prej·u·dice
/ˈprejədəs/
Noun
Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.

Which would be people assigning attributes to homosexuality beyond what it is. Homosexuality is simply a shaping factor in the pool of people you find attractive and compatible. That's it. Anything else is just prejudice.

I'll take a big metal tower instead.
BBC News - French protests against gay marriage bill

Not Tower Bridge then?
BBC News - Gay marriage: MPs back bill despite Conservative backbench opposition

Cjwinnit · Feb 6, 2013

mindlight said:
The majority of the Tory party opposed it which indicates to me that it may still have a future but only after the current leadership is disposed of and that usually occurs after electoral defeat. But this is an electoral disaster for the Tories as at the constituency level they have lost many of their staff.

True. I the short-term it will be bad for the Tories but it could be good long-term. No liberal is going to change their vote to Tory over this because they hate them so much, so they will most likely lost the next election.

There is no point a Tory party going for the metropolitan vote - they will never ever get it, no matter what they do. Best to stick with traditional Tory ideas. Remember what happened to the Progressive Tories in Canada...

mindlight · Feb 6, 2013

Cjwinnit said:
True. I the short-term it will be bad for the Tories but it could be good long-term. No liberal is going to change their vote to Tory over this because they hate them so much, so they will most likely lost the next election.

There is no point a Tory party going for the metropolitan vote - they will never ever get it, no matter what they do. Best to stick with traditional Tory ideas. Remember what happened to the Progressive Tories in Canada...

Regarding the next election I will not change my vote as things stand as my MP abstained. In constituencies where the MP voted in favour then local Tories should probably consider alternate candidates and especially UKIP as an alternative. In the rare constituencies where the LibDem or Labour MPs voted against these proposals it might be an idea for Tories to support the sitting MP from these other parties rather than supporting their own candidate(unless that is their own candidate was opposed to these proposals).

I do not think we are looking at a canada here but there are a lot of Tory MPs I want to see lose their seats and jobs at the next election.

mindlight · Feb 6, 2013

Psudopod said:
Two things.

One, being homosexual does not imply infertility. Even if every single person in the world was homosexual, it does not mean that the race would be wiped out. There would still be children, just the family structure would be different. That's by the by, as there seems no evidence to suggest more than a small portion of the population is gay.

Two, you cannot claim X is a difference between groups A and B if X appears in groups A and B. You cannot say for example, these horses are different to those horses because these horses are grey and those horses are brown, if some of those horses are also grey.
Likewise, not having children is not a difference between same sex and opposite sex couples because not all opposite sex couples have children. There is no consistant difference beyond the gender of the couples.

Lesbian mothers, gay fathers, and their ... [J Dev Behav Pediatr. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
Children of lesbian and gay parents. [Child Dev. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI
[Homosexual parenthood and child development: pres... [Encephale. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI
Lesbian families and family functioning: ... [Patient Educ Couns. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
Children of gay or lesbian parents. [Pediatr Rev. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI

Yes serious. The only way you can claim the yin and yang thing is that if you are claiming there is all women are essentially alike, and that alikeness is opposite to the alikeness of all men. Whereas any experience shows that people are all very different. Two people of the same gender can complement each other just as well as two people of the opposite gender because it is down to personality.

Yes, sorry, errant spellchecker.

Which would be people assigning attributes to homosexuality beyond what it is. Homosexuality is simply a shaping factor in the pool of people you find attractive and compatible. That's it. Anything else is just prejudice.

Not Tower Bridge then?
BBC News - Gay marriage: MPs back bill despite Conservative backbench opposition

Only a man and a woman can make a child together. If 2 men father a child then only 1 is the father and the mother is missing however effeminate the man strives to be. Gay relationships introduce unnatural artificialities into the childs experience of child rearing.Add to this the poor stability of the gay community as as a whole and you have a social disaster waiting to happen.

The surveys you quote are the usual biased , small or unrepresentative sample sized, ammoral naturalistic claptrap that characterises those scientists that believe mankind can be examined as if an animal. At the end of the day sexuality is mutable and you fail to consider the moral requirement for change and the power of God that makes this possible. What you are saying will never be right regardless of whether this stupidity becomes law.

mindlight · Feb 6, 2013

BurningKnight said:
Nah, I think Gordon Brown was the worst PM ever...

Which is worse - wrecking the economy or wrecking marriage, the environment in which children will grow up in and increasing the chance that a single child might be misled about his salvation?

David Brider · Feb 6, 2013

mindlight said:
Which is worse - wrecking the economy or wrecking marriage, the environment in which children will grow up in and increasing the chance that a single child might be misled about his salvation?

Wrecking marriage? Dearie me. Hyperbole.

Genersis · Feb 6, 2013

David Brider said:
Wrecking marriage? Dearie me. Hyperbole.

We even had MP's in the house of commons arguing that this will downgrade marriage/lower the importance of commitment in marriage.
Quite sad really.

Genersis · Feb 6, 2013

mindlight said:
Which is worse - wrecking the economy or wrecking marriage, the environment in which children will grow up in and increasing the chance that a single child might be misled about his salvation?

So the government are supposed to ensure that people in this country are more likely to find salvation under Christianity of something?

I'm pretty sure that's why churches exist...

Psudopod · Feb 6, 2013

Only a man and a woman can make a child together.

Yes, but it doesn't matter if they are gay or straight. I just pointing out his hyperbole was unjustified.

Gay relationships introduce unnatural artificialities into the childs experience of child rearing.

You haven't demonstrated this.

Add to this the poor stability of the gay community as as a whole and you have a social disaster waiting to happen.

Nor have you demonstrated this. There are problems with STIs in gay men, but you've got a group of people who have only been allowed to have sex legally for the last 30 odd years, faced continued prejudice after that and never really had any decent sex education. Coupled with the fact that men take more risks that women it's not hard to see why the problem exists. It doesn't mean there is any inherant risk to being gay. Instead we should be educating children about all aspects of safe sex, no matter what their orientation, and encouraging stable, monogamous relationships. Like marriage, for example.

The surveys you quote are the usual biased , small or unrepresentative sample sized, ammoral naturalistic claptrap that characterises those scientists that believe mankind can be examined as if an animal.

These are not surveys, they are peer reviewed studies.

At the end of the day sexuality is mutable and you fail to consider the moral requirement for change and the power of God that makes this possible.

I'm not going to say sexuality is completely immutable because I don't have the evidence to make an absolute statement, but it certainly isn't something that is done in most people. There is evidence that says this is very dangerous process that doesn't work in almost every case. Many pronminent ex-gays have come out and admitted they lied because they felt under pressure to deny their feelings. If there are problems with infidelity and STIs, lets address that rather than forcing people to undergo a dangerous and needless procedure.

Psudopod · Feb 6, 2013

We even had MP's in the house of commons arguing that this will downgrade marriage/lower the importance of commitment in marriage.
Quite sad really.

There were some lovely speeches yesterday and some truely dreadful ones.

Genersis · Feb 6, 2013

Psudopod said:
There were some lovely speeches yesterday and some truely dreadful ones.

Indeed...

Coton Boy · Feb 10, 2013

No he isn't. He is incompetent, and has made more u-turns than a bad driver, but there have been worse PMs. I do think he will be a one term PM however.

lismore · Feb 21, 2013

Genersis said:
What do most people hate about Blair?

He was a Tory with a red rosette on. This percolated through all his policies.

Just like Cameron is a posh laissez-faire liberal with a blue rosette on.

lismore · Feb 21, 2013

Coton Boy said:
No he isn't. He is incompetent, and has made more u-turns than a bad driver, but there have been worse PMs. I do think he will be a one term PM however.

I think it's possible the Conservatives will ditch him before the next election.

Genersis · Feb 22, 2013

lismore said:
He was a Tory with a red rosette on. This percolated through all his policies.

Just like Cameron is a posh laissez-faire liberal with a blue rosette on.

A conservative party can be liberal when it comes to the economy though, and ours has been at least since Thatcher.
You wouldn't normally expect a social democracy party to support laissez-faire economics though...

Marius27 · Feb 24, 2013

mindlight said:
Only a man and a woman can make a child together. If 2 men father a child then only 1 is the father and the mother is missing however effeminate the man strives to be. Gay relationships introduce unnatural artificialities into the childs experience of child rearing.Add to this the poor stability of the gay community as as a whole and you have a social disaster waiting to happen.

Actually, all scientific evidence has proven that gay parents do just as well raising children, if not better than heterosexual parents. The children are just as well adjusted. As for stability, in countries where same-sex marriage has been legal for awhile, the gay divorce right is much lower than the straight divorce rate. In the Netherlands, the straight divorce rate is 38%. The gay divorce rate is 5%, and that's mostly lesbians.

As usual, your claims are completely false.

Marius27 · Feb 24, 2013

mindlight said:
Which is worse - wrecking the economy or wrecking marriage, the environment in which children will grow up in and increasing the chance that a single child might be misled about his salvation?

Heterosexuals haven't already wrecked marriage? What about heterosexuals' huge divorce and adultery rates, sham marriages, drunken drive thru weddings?

Marius27 · Feb 24, 2013

Genersis said:
We even had MP's in the house of commons arguing that this will downgrade marriage/lower the importance of commitment in marriage.
Quite sad really.

The irony is, gays divorce less than straights. Evidence shows it's heterosexuals who destroy the sanctity of marriage.

Is David Cameron the worst PM ever?

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