Adam's Lease -- or whatever it's called

ABlessedAnomaly

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In the "Why did God afflict Job?" thread poster liferiver made the following comment:
If, on the other hand, if we argue by virtue of Satan having God's given authority (which was abdicated by Adam when he fell), he can do whatever he likes, then I think the story will not turn.
and it struck me as odd...and somewhat true.

We in WoF teach (does anyone else?) that when Adam fell, Satan obtained "Adam's lease" as the god of this world. (Now I've never heard a WoF preacher use the term "Adam's lease," but the concept of this is taught.) The subject taught has the following flavor: Adam fell due to the lies of Satan and Satan thus gained rule in this earth; God was locked out and had to be invited back in by a man (Abraham) to legally do anything here.

I have problem's with this whole thing. If God was locked out, then how did he curse the ground and chase man out of the garden? How did he bring on the flood? And I don't see an invite from Abraham, rather God came to him.

But liferiver's question/point brings up another issue. Some say that Job's story is one of the oldest in the Bible (regardless of the book's placement) and some say that Job is actually earlier than Abraham. If this be true (or actually any timeline) how could God have a hedge that Satan must abide by in this earth.

The works of Satan were defeated at the cross. He is subject to us, the born again believer's. We have authority over him (see Luke 10:19).

The question here is many-fold. Someone review for me the fall and what transfer of power occurred, if any. I'm wondering now why Satan is subdued prior to the cross in Job. And he really isn't mentioned much in the Old Testament anyway.

I want to put forth that Satan gained nothing in the fall, other than dragging man down from perfection into the curse. He tried to kill mankind. I would say that Satan always had the possibility of action that he has today: to kill, steal and destroy by using thoughts, ideas and suggestions -- trying to get man to turn from God's will and path and to embrace elements of the curse. And he didn't need Adam's fall to obtain this ability, in fact he used it get man to fall.

Of course the difference between the Old and the New covenants is our place in Christ. In the old it was a works driven thing: follow the law. In the new, Jesus imputes His righteousness to us, having been made sin for us He paid the price that we would have had to pay for our sin. He made us acceptable before Father God.

So what could the devil do in the Old Testament that he can't do now? Examples please.

In essence, I want to review the authority of the believer; and I want to compare it to the old testament saints.
 
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Tennisplayer

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Great post, great questions. Kenneth Hagin used the analogy of Adam turning over the lease of our conrtol of the world to Satan. I guess in a way he did. However, God is still in control and Satan is one of his created beings that the Lord could destroy anytime he wants. But he seems to allow the world to go on within the natural boundaries that have been set in place.

I sometimes wonder if we are supposed to put all of our focus on the New Covenant vs. trying to figure out why things happened as they did under the Old Covenant like in Job.
 
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In the "Why did God afflict Job?" thread poster liferiver made the following comment:

and it struck me as odd...and somewhat true.

We in WoF teach (does anyone else?) that when Adam fell, Satan obtained "Adam's lease" as the god of this world. (Now I've never heard a WoF preacher use the term "Adam's lease," but the concept of this is taught.) The subject taught has the following flavor: Adam fell due to the lies of Satan and Satan thus gained rule in this earth; God was locked out and had to be invited back in by a man (Abraham) to legally do anything here.

I have problem's with this whole thing. If God was locked out, then how did he curse the ground and chase man out of the garden? How did he bring on the flood? And I don't see an invite from Abraham, rather God came to him.

He didn't. God isn't the author of the curse. The Deluge... that's an entirely different subject altogether.

But liferiver's question/point brings up another issue. Some say that Job's story is one of the oldest in the Bible (regardless of the book's placement) and some say that Job is actually earlier than Abraham. If this be true (or actually any timeline) how could God have a hedge that Satan must abide by in this earth.

I doubt if Job is nearly as old as people are thinking it is.

The works of Satan were defeated at the cross. He is subject to us, the born again believer's. We have authority over him (see Luke 10:19).

True, though he still fights us tooth and nail.

The question here is many-fold. Someone review for me the fall and what transfer of power occurred, if any. I'm wondering now why Satan is subdued prior to the cross in Job. And he really isn't mentioned much in the Old Testament anyway.

I'm wondering where Satan is subdued prior to the death of Jesus. Because, I'm not seeing it. At all.

Satan is mentioned about 3 times in the OT; once in Job, once in Zechariah and once in Chronicles (in place of God - hint, hint). Just because the Jews did not believe too much in the concept of a literal, personal devil does not mean he was not real and very active prior to the new testament.

I want to put forth that Satan gained nothing in the fall, other than dragging man down from perfection into the curse. He tried to kill mankind. I would say that Satan always had the possibility of action that he has today: to kill, steal and destroy by using thoughts, ideas and suggestions -- trying to get man to turn from God's will and path and to embrace elements of the curse. And he didn't need Adam's fall to obtain this ability, in fact he used it get man to fall.

So, you believe Satan was always god of this world? Where did he acquire his rights to rule then? From God? From the beginning?? That is an unsettling thought. If God put Satan in power, he is just as responsible as I claimed initially.

Satan gained far more power due to man's sin than just the ability to lie to humans and deceive us. It was only through Christ's death and shed blood that rightful ownership of this world was re-gained and given back to its rightful rulers - us. Until Jesus died, Satan could do just about whatever he wanted with the world. He is bound now and is under our feet, though while defeated, he is still a formidable foe.

Of course the difference between the Old and the New covenants is our place in Christ. In the old it was a works driven thing: follow the law. In the new, Jesus imputes His righteousness to us, having been made sin for us He paid the price that we would have had to pay for our sin. He made us acceptable before Father God.

So what could the devil do in the Old Testament that he can't do now? Examples please.

Kill, steal and destroy. He also had complete authority over the world until Christ. Jesus said, the prince of this world would be cast out (before he died). Satan possessed the entire world when he tempted Christ to worship him. If he did not have all the kingdoms in his grasp, he could not have offered it as a legitimate temptation.

In essence, I want to review the authority of the believer; and I want to compare it to the old testament saints.

It sounds like you're adopting a more traditional viewpoint, and discarding the Word of Faith doctrines about these matters.

The old testament saints didn't even have the Holy Spirit to teach them or live in them. They had no access to the Father or the Son. They had no access to God at all, for the most part. It's like comparing apples and oranges.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Great post, great questions. Kenneth Hagin used the analogy of Adam turning over the lease of our conrtol of the world to Satan. I guess in a way he did. However, God is still in control and Satan is one of his created beings that the Lord could destroy anytime he wants. But he seems to allow the world to go on within the natural boundaries that have been set in place.
Ah, yes, Hagin did talk about a lease. Yes.

God put things into being in this world. He made certain promises and He gave dominion to man. So there are things that God won't do -- as opposed to what He can't do, for there is NOTHING that He can't do.

I sometimes wonder if we are supposed to put all of our focus on the New Covenant vs. trying to figure out why things happened as they did under the Old Covenant like in Job.
The Old is the shadow of what came in the New. We can understand a lot by looking at the shadows of what we have appropriated to us in the New.
 
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liferiver

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Will have a go at it. Disclaimer: is just my opinion. Topics like this are controversial and generate loads of emotions.

So here a timeline of the entire narrative of the bible in relation with authority.

1 Lucifer rebelled cast out of heaven, took one third of angels with him. Thereafter, known as satan. Earth without form and void.

2 Adam created by God. Crowned with glory and honor. Given authority over the earth.

3 Adam ate the fruit, succumb to temptation and dies.

4 Satan took over the Adams authority. Now he has access to heaven and throne room of God. (Job 1) Accuses brethren day and night before God (rev 12). Satan now is god of the earth

5. Human race tainted of giants and humans mating offspring. Part of Satan plan to infiltrate earth through humans and bodies.

6.Only Noah and family remains pure, rest of tainted human kind flooded.

7. God continues his redemption plan to bring forth Messiah through Abraham david ....etc and Satan plays catch up by trying destroy and killing so that the promised seed doesn't come forth destroying the temple exiling the jews

8. God gave the law. Soul sins must die. Here satan is seen as an executor of God wrath at times.

God and even Satan modus operandi seems similar.

Seems to me that while God can work independently of man, but He chooses to partner with man. Probably because heaven belongs to Him, earth He has given to man.

Man may not initiate the plan but God certainly allows himself to be influenced and influences man. Like a divine dance.
Gos works through humans will and actions. Predestination with free will hand in hand. Not sure which comes first. :)

Satan works in the same way with humans to thwart God plan but using fear hate etc.

9 Jesus came in the flesh to destroy satan who has the power of death. Also to destroy the works of the devil. Before the cross He gave authority and power to disciples. Demons manifested. Sicknesses cast out

10 on the cross, Jesus death and resurrection. Fulfil the law. Defeated Satan. Disarmed him. Jesus cast Satan out of heaven. He no longer has access to heaven to accuse us day and night. No right as the blood of Jesus has forgiven us and cleanse us. Jesus has regained what Adam lost.

11after resurrection, we have been given authority and power by Jesus who is the second Adam. We are in Christ.

12Satan now cannot accuse us before God and we are not under law and we are made righteous.

13. He has been stripped of authority (exousia) but he still has power (dunamis). And he is still god of this world in a sense. That's why so much evil is happening.

14 Satan has no legal authority against us, now uses deception lies wrong beliefs, our words thoughts stronghold and throw fiery darts at believers. He cannot use the law to accuse us. We are in a warfare and we need to stand on the victorious work of Jesus and resist and cast him out and use our authority in Christ. We are now His ambassadors.

15 And shortly the God of peace will soon crush Satan underneath out feet. Death the last enemy will be taken out

16 In His second return, Satan will go to the pit.

Interestingly new testament explains more about Satan than old.

Why did Job had a hedge? I think because of his prayers and offerings, a hedge was around him. Bible did promise protection for those who fear him.

I personally believe we in Christ have a hedge around us becos of indwelling Spirit in us.
 
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now faith

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What Adam lost Noah got back,sounds strange but ponder theses verses
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Notice the promise all that moveth on the earth,this would imply spirits as well.
 
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now faith

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My point is that God has given man back dominion at this point.
Moving on in history,man gave ground and through idolatry and sin man invited Satan back.
The more ground man gave up the more Satan took.
It only proves we cannot through our works become sinless God had to provide the way or man would have been back pre flood stage at the time after Christ.
This is why Satan has little mention early in the Old Testament.
 
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Optimax

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Here it is recorded, at the sounding of the seventh angel, when the "lease" expires.

Rev 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. KJV


That is what the battle of Armageddon is about.

Those who are against God attempting to retain control of the earth's kingdoms.
 
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liferiver

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What Adam lost Noah got back,sounds strange but ponder theses verses
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Notice the promise all that moveth on the earth,this would imply spirits as well.

Never realised the verses and their implication until you pointed that out. This is almost exactly what God told Adam initially. Sounds like God pressed the "reset" button and gave the mandate again. Just reminded me the heartbeat of God for man was to take dominion. He could have said other stuff to Noah but repeated Himself. How applicable it's even for us in Christ.


My point is that God has given man back dominion at this point.
Moving on in history,man gave ground and through idolatry and sin man invited Satan back.
The more ground man gave up the more Satan took.
It only proves we cannot through our works become sinless God had to provide the way or man would have been back pre flood stage at the time after Christ.
This is why Satan has little mention early in the Old Testament.

Interesting thought. I'll like to take it further by suggesting at the giving of the Law, Satan had even more legal ground against man, in addition to sin. The Law was designed to bring out sinfulness in man. The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law (1 Cor 15:56)
 
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liferiver

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Here it is recorded, at the sounding of the seventh angel, when the "lease" expires.

Rev 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. KJV


That is what the battle of Armageddon is about.

Those who are against God attempting to retain control of the earth's kingdoms.

Beautiful.

Just a sidenote that this verse fits in the increasingly more popular view of Preterist interepretation of Revelation where most of Revelations has already happened during AD 70 instead of the secret rapture. I actually think the Preterist interpretation of Paul's letters is more contextual! I'm actually having a leaning toward that interpretation.

In any case, believers are still to take authority!
 
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SavedByGrace3

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In the OT righteousnes was awarded to those who feared the Lord and who were covered by the sacrifices and such. It does not mean they were perfect as to sin. We are not fully knowledgable about the religion of Job. We know that he lacked light in a lot of areas, but as long as he walked in the light he had, he was counted righteous in the eyes of God.

There are many verses in the OT that tell us that those who fear God have protection. Job had that protection as long as he sacrificed in faith. But at some point he ceased to sacrifice in faith, and began to sacrifice in fear. This effectively pushed down any protection that he may have had. This must have occured between verse 8 and when God pointed out to satan that the was no hedge.

Here is an exerpt from a draft of my book on Job:


Satan begins His War on Job

From there Satan (not God) renews (not begins) his attempt to attack Job. His former attempt was unsuccessful because of the hedge. At some point before God and Satan had their talk the hedge came down. There is no evidence that God pushed the hedge down.

It is significant that the things Job greatly feared came upon him. It is possible that Jobs constant fear that his children might curse God actually pushed the hedge down:

Job 1
5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

He did this continually. He was greatly afraid for his children.

The Fear of the Lord and The Hedge

I believe that at first, Job’s fear of God was reverent and holy and it was this fear of the Lord that set up the hedge for Job to start with:

Proverbs 19:23
23. The fear of the LORD tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.

Jobs fear of the Lord prevented the evil of Satan from visiting Job. In verse 8 this fear of the Lord tended Job to life and Job abided (or live) satisfied.

Proverbs 14:26-27
26. In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.
27. The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

Here we see the concept of a hedge for those who fear the Lord. A place of refuge is a place of safety from attackers and all harm. As long as Job feared the Lord, his refuge (hedge) was sure.

Psalms 34:7
7. The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

What a joy it must have been for Job. Angels encamped around him. It is possible that He was not even aware of angels, or even Satan for that matter. There is no mention of angels in Job. However, God is good on His promises. I suspect we are not even aware of all the protection He provides for us on a daily basis.

Fear of the Lord turns to Unfounded Dread and Doubt!

As long as Job had his eyes on God and as long as that fear lead to faith and worship, Job was safe and beyond Satan’s reach. But there is evidence that at some point the fear of God turned into another kind of fear. This was a fear that led to doubt and unbelief. Job ceased to fear God for good unto faith, and begin to doubt that God would keep him.

Job 3:
25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

The Complete Apostles' Bible renders it this way:

“For the terror of which I meditated has come upon me, and that which I had feared has befallen me.”

The International Standard Version uses the word Dread!

“For the dreaded thing that I feared has happened to me, what caused me to worry has engulfed me

The word “meditated” reveals that Job became obsessed with thinking about destruction from God. He believed God was mad at him and was going to get him. He feared God was going to get his children. This fear plagued him long into the night as he rolled it over and over in his mind. He was engulfed by it. The next verse brings a further revelation about what was going on in the mind of Job and why the hedge collapsed.

Job 3:26 (YNG)
26. I was not safe--nor was I quiet--Nor was I at rest--and trouble cometh!

Despite the fact that there was a hedge about him, those great fears so overwhelmed his mind that he began see himself as NOT save, NOT at rest… and as a result “trouble cometh.”

Later Job reveals the truth about his fears and doubts:

Job 31:23
23. For destruction from God was a terror to me, and by reason of his highness I could not endure.

Job feared that God was going to destroy him! This is not the same quality of “fear of the Lord” that Job exercised before that resulted in a hedge being set up around him. Job was suffering from the same misconception that many people today do. He thought God was mad at him and was going to crush his children, him possessions, and his life. Today, despite the fact that the scripture says His anger has been exhausted, people wrongly fear the Father!

Romans 8:15(CEV)
15. God's Spirit doesn't make us slaves who are afraid of him. Instead, we become his children and call him our Father.
Hebrews 4:16
16. Then let us come near to the seat of grace without fear, so that mercy may be given to us, and we may get grace for our help in time of need.

Yet Job, while he was yet within the hedge safe from danger, began to allow his fears get the best of him, he, along with his wife, family, servants, friends, and neighbors thought that the source of calamity and destruction was God! We shall present evidence that virtually all the people mentioned in the book thought God was the source of their problems! This incorrect conception spoiled Jobs mind and faith, and this resulted in the hedge coming down.

Fears brings Doubt

So this may be what happened to the hedge. The hedge may have come down due to fear which leads to doubt. Doubt may have pushed down the hedge just as fear and doubt caused Peter to sink.

Matthew 14:
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?


When the report of the death of Jairus' daughter came, Jesus said:

Luke 8:
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

Jesus contrasted fear and belief. Fear causes doubt and unbelief. Fear and unbelief cause people to sink and hedges to come down.

The thing Job greatly feared (harm coming to his children) was one of the first things that happened to Job. He greatly feared for his children, and then his children were killed.

Job 1
18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Fear is an enemy of faith.



peace
dids
 
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now faith

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Never realised the verses and their implication until you pointed that out. This is almost exactly what God told Adam initially. Sounds like God pressed the "reset" button and gave the mandate again. Just reminded me the heartbeat of God for man was to take dominion. He could have said other stuff to Noah but repeated Himself. How applicable it's even for us in Christ.




Interesting thought. I'll like to take it further by suggesting at the giving of the Law, Satan had even more legal ground against man, in addition to sin. The Law was designed to bring out sinfulness in man. The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law (1 Cor 15:56)
Yes Amen,man could not keep the law,but without it he would have digressed back to pre flood.
 
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liferiver

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So what could the devil do in the Old Testament that he can't do now? Examples please.

In essence, I want to review the authority of the believer; and I want to compare it to the old testament saints.

Back to OP's question.

I think for NT believers, the devil does not have the right to inflict any form evil on us, because we're righteous and in Christ. Just like Jesus when He was on earth, He was never sick, never poor. The devil sure tried his best against Jesus, but Jesus was victorious.

For the old testament saints, speaking of the post-law period, I think their wellness was very much contingent on their high priest and them keeping the laws, statues and ordinances of God like the sabbaths, not complaining, not murmuring...etc If not, Satan will swiftly destroy them.

For the pre-law period saints like Abraham, I actually do not see much of a cause and effect consistency in Satan's destructive work on people. A few major events come to mind: in the Garden of Eden (that's the biggest one actually), through the giants and probably in Pharaoh and the angel of death during passover. He's definitely working behind the scenes though with a plan I think.

However, Satan still has the power to do what he has always been doing whether in old and new testament. That's to kill, steal, destroy, lie... etc

For believers, authority over us have been stripped. Also, sin problem have been dealt with unlike the old testaments saints. But I've to admit we may have, due to lots of reasons like lack of faith, ignorance, unbelief, unrenewed mind, wrong beliefs, lack of prayer... etc empowered the devil and gave inroads to his fiery darts. He can and will still try but will not be as easy as compared to OT saints.

But there seems to be some sort of "rules of engagement" in the Old Testament that satan has to play by. That may explain why satan accuses the saints day and night before God probably trying to find inroads to attack the OT saints. Although Satan is the god of this world, he seems to be limited by the "righteousness" of the old testament saints.

There are things the OT saints can do to protect themselves that may possibly build hedges around themselves and conversely, to be in direct line of fire of satan by living in fear, Job example comes to mind.
 
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now faith

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In the "Why did God afflict Job?" thread poster liferiver made the following comment:

and it struck me as odd...and somewhat true.

We in WoF teach (does anyone else?) that when Adam fell, Satan obtained "Adam's lease" as the god of this world. (Now I've never heard a WoF preacher use the term "Adam's lease," but the concept of this is taught.) The subject taught has the following flavor: Adam fell due to the lies of Satan and Satan thus gained rule in this earth; God was locked out and had to be invited back in by a man (Abraham) to legally do anything here.

I have problem's with this whole thing. If God was locked out, then how did he curse the ground and chase man out of the garden? How did he bring on the flood? And I don't see an invite from Abraham, rather God came to him.

But liferiver's question/point brings up another issue. Some say that Job's story is one of the oldest in the Bible (regardless of the book's placement) and some say that Job is actually earlier than Abraham. If this be true (or actually any timeline) how could God have a hedge that Satan must abide by in this earth.

The works of Satan were defeated at the cross. He is subject to us, the born again believer's. We have authority over him (see Luke 10:19).

The question here is many-fold. Someone review for me the fall and what transfer of power occurred, if any. I'm wondering now why Satan is subdued prior to the cross in Job. And he really isn't mentioned much in the Old Testament anyway.

I want to put forth that Satan gained nothing in the fall, other than dragging man down from perfection into the curse. He tried to kill mankind. I would say that Satan always had the possibility of action that he has today: to kill, steal and destroy by using thoughts, ideas and suggestions -- trying to get man to turn from God's will and path and to embrace elements of the curse. And he didn't need Adam's fall to obtain this ability, in fact he used it get man to fall.

Of course the difference between the Old and the New covenants is our place in Christ. In the old it was a works driven thing: follow the law. In the new, Jesus imputes His righteousness to us, having been made sin for us He paid the price that we would have had to pay for our sin. He made us acceptable before Father God.

So what could the devil do in the Old Testament that he can't do now? Examples please.

In essence, I want to review the authority of the believer; and I want to compare it to the old testament saints.

I believe the essence of this is not being put fourth.
Satan and God will only do what we will allow,then and now.
Satan's role is a accuser of man,he seeks to glorify himself by finding sin in Gods creation.
Satan is a liar and uses deception to steal kill and destroy, then and now.
God is love his will for us is joy and prosperity on earth and eternal life with him.
God gave man authority over Satan from the start,Eve was not force fed nor was Adam.
Many things are blamed on Satan and God,but often it is our own free will that creates our destiny.
God chose his mighty men through history not from respect but from their obedience, and pure hearts.
Satan chooses the weak in the flock to tempt and separate from God,just like a lion after prey.
This is why he questioned Eve and not Adam,he knew Eve would get to Adam.
Our faith in God pleases him,he leaves it to us and does not force our faith.
God created freewill and knew beforehand man would fall,but he did not leave us to die.
He made a way by the law and sacrifices first,and man still faltered,his great love for us caused him to make a way once and for all through Christ.
Satan may be bad but he can only destroy what we allow.
God is love,but he can only receive who accepts him.
Time to stop blaming God or the devil and step out in bold faith and receive what was given from the beginning.
 
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now faith

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Satan is the God of this world,as he told Christ in tempting him ( all of this has been given unto me)
Right from the start Noah cursed his son ham for revealing his naked body.
Genesis 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
So we have two promises of God and two events of sin and curse.
As for Job his fear allowed for Satan to harm him,Job said what I have feared has come unto me.
As always fear tolerated is faith contaminated.
 
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Great thread!

When I first came to the Lord, He opened up much of this stuff to me. I needed to know certain things, and God just BLASTED me with all kinds of stuff that I couldn't piece together for some time, but lo and behold, He had answered my questions.

If I share my POV on these things, it will seem unorthodox to many, but it all checks out with Scripture, and in fact points to reasons for a great many things being included in Scripture.

First of all, everyone here recognizes some significance in God "giving man dominion?"

Well we know the objective is the Cross, but how could God just waltz into our dominion and do what no man would? It would be unjust.

Enter Job. He and Abraham were roughly contemporaries. Each made a SIGNIFICANT contribution, literally GIVING God dominion, to be able to do His will. Of course we all realize Abraham was willing to give up his only begotten Son, and the ties to Christ's Passion seems endless.

Job is the one who actually endured suffering, and said though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him. :cool:

Man is that a hard act to follow. And yet w/o that, Christ could not take our sins upon Himself and be our burden bearer and still be just; but WITH it, He was fully within His rights, not doing anything man hadn't shown ourselves willing to do. Is the appropriate term for this "corporate headship?" I dunno but anyway, God is Just, and Faithful, and True. Now we gotta be as He is, in this world. :groupray:
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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As I sit back and watch the responses and ponder what all of you think on this matter (and, more realistically, as I have been preoccupied and haven't had the time to answer with due justice here) I did want to comment on this (as it directly addresses the OP):

However, Satan still has the power to do what he has always been doing whether in old and new testament. That's to kill, steal, destroy, lie... etc
Yes.

For believers, authority over us have been stripped.
Um...no. Well, not exactly. Satan never had authority over man. Otherwise, Jesus came as a man so Satan would have had authority over Him. Where Satan has power is when men give it to him (or allow him to rule over us, as man did in the garden when they succumb to him and ate of the tree).

Also, sin problem have been dealt with unlike the old testaments saints. But I've to admit we may have, due to lots of reasons like lack of faith, ignorance, unbelief, unrenewed mind, wrong beliefs, lack of prayer... etc empowered the devil and gave inroads to his fiery darts. He can and will still try but will not be as easy as compared to OT saints.
See you are saying that Satan's authority was stripped but then it is given back....nullifying what Jesus did. This is not an accurate picture.
Hebrews 2:14-18 (NIV)
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

(The NKJV says "destroy" for the blue above, but in context this gives a misdirection in my opinion. The word in the Greek means to "render entirely useless.")
The devil's "power" hasn't changed. Our ability and standing has changed. Or we could say that his "power" over us has been broken. (Think about whether the devil's "power" over the OT saint, who was not yet saved, changed.) We've been given authority (backing!) to deal with the devil, and serpents and scorpions, and all the enemy that would attack:
Luke 10:19
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Also notice something: this was pre-cross.

Think about our position as opposed to the Old Testament saints. Again I'll claim that the devil hasn't changed. Positionally, we have.
 
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liferiver

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Thanks Blessed Man.

I think I got confused and at some point fell for the logical fallacy of binary thinking, either-or. For example: Actual vs positional. Effectual vs. actual.. Kingdom now vs kingdom future etc

For example, I thought Satan being called "god of this world" in the bible presupposes absolute authority over man. But having pondered about this, now I think this authority is only insomuch as given by man (in both testaments) and not absolute authority as I thought initially.

Think the clincher for me was when now faith and seeking christ mentioned about free will of man and also how God works through man and possibly Satan works through man.

And to think about it, the first sin, Satan as the serpent in the garden, had to have the consent of Eve and Adam, to do his job.

Even now we have been give all authority, but the possibility of devil attacks on believers still loom. And if we do succumb to his fiery darts, what does that mean? Have we given away authority? and have we nullified Jesus work? I think yes and no, much of this depends on semantics and meaning of the words we mean and use. But having said that, Jesus work is still effectual for those of us who believe even after we fall.

Maybe authority over man is not a good word. But much of this is semantics which I was confused about.

But there's a major difference in the testaments. Our position have changed to be in Christ, I think Satan position has been relegated too; he could legally attack people in the Old, but in the New, he's an illegal outlaw. So although he possess the same power, he behaves like a outlaw criminal now. In the past, he could operate as a "professional justice enforcer".

And the whole premise I've is: Satan as god of this world, his authority is only limited to what he's given. It's not absolute authority.

And I think the verse, "The devil is like a roaring lion; seeking whom he may devour", sums it up. He needs to seek willing people to devour.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Thanks Blessed Man.

I think I got confused and at some point fell for the logical fallacy of binary thinking, either-or. For example: Actual vs positional. Effectual vs. actual.. Kingdom now vs kingdom future etc

For example, I thought Satan being called "god of this world" in the bible presupposes absolute authority over man. But having pondered about this, now I think this authority is only insomuch as given by man (in both testaments) and not absolute authority as I thought initially.

Think the clincher for me was when now faith and seeking christ mentioned about free will of man and also how God works through man and possibly Satan works through man.

And to think about it, the first sin, Satan as the serpent in the garden, had to have the consent of Eve and Adam, to do his job.

Even now we have been give all authority, but the possibility of devil attacks on believers still loom. And if we do succumb to his fiery darts, what does that mean? Have we given away authority? and have we nullified Jesus work? I think yes and no, much of this depends on semantics and meaning of the words we mean and use. But having said that, Jesus work is still effectual for those of us who believe even after we fall.

Maybe authority over man is not a good word. But much of this is semantics which I was confused about.

But there's a major difference in the testaments. Our position have changed to be in Christ, I think Satan position has been relegated too; he could legally attack people in the Old, but in the New, he's an illegal outlaw. So although he possess the same power, he behaves like a outlaw criminal now. In the past, he could operate as a "professional justice enforcer".

And the whole premise I've is: Satan as god of this world, his authority is only limited to what he's given. It's not absolute authority.

And I think the verse, "The devil is like a roaring lion; seeking whom he may devour", sums it up. He needs to seek willing people to devour.
Awesome post! Very, very good.

The blue paragraph above I'll give you something to think about. Our position changes to be in Christ when we are saved. Satan's position, I argue, did not change but was relagated to "effectively ineffective" (against the believer); but in the New Testament what is his position to the unbeliever (even the orthodox Jew)?

Did it take the cross to make him an "illegal outlaw?" Jesus proclaimed victory because of what He purchased for us -- Satan never had ANYTHING on Jesus. We gained. So thinking of the "illegal outlaw" concept let's look at Genesis 3.
Genesis 3:14-15
So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Now, within this is the prophecy of Jesus bruising the devil's head -- defeating him by securing our righteousness and place in Christ. But let's look at the first part of verse 14.
Verse 14: You are cursed more than all cattle....
"Cursed" here is the Hebrew arar. This means "bitterly curse[d]." It means "execrated." This point, arguably, is when Satan became unsavable. Some argue that his expelling from heaven was not the end for him, but by then corrupting God's creation in man and causing the fall, that he became execrated -- forever seperated from God with no chance for redemption.
 
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