Recovering Baptist- need some help

For the last 2 yrs. I've been looking into the Messianic views, and am more and more convinced of the truth in this movement. I say this even though I've encountered a lot of disagreement and even craziness in the few who are in it in my neck of the woods. And therein lies my problem:

I live in a very rural region and so have no trustworthy support system. The nearest Messianic communities lie over 150 mi. to the east and west of me. While I keep the Sabbath, I still must worship on Sundays as well with a mainstream church in order to "not forsake the fellowship". It is difficult sitting under their doctrines, some of which I now believe to be patently false. When I challenge these points, I'm met either with skepticism or often outright anger, and always with denial. So it is a little difficult for me as a new convert to sort through a lot of what I'm learning.

I do get the Torah Parsha each week online. My library is expanding in reverse proportion to my wallet thickness. And I regularly pray for discernment then plunge into the infinite mass of "knowledge" here on the world-wide-web. None of this is the same as having a local congregation with which to study and where I can find support.

There are bound to be others here who are in similar circumstances How do some of you handle this type situation? What are some reliable resources for someone new looking for answers? I mean other than coming here and reading the archives, of course! Anyone know of any good online Shabbat services?

Thanks,
Dan

Any 7th day Baptist?

dnc101 said:

For the last 2 yrs. I've been looking into the Messianic views, and am more and more convinced of the truth in this movement. I say this even though I've encountered a lot of disagreement and even craziness in the few who are in it in my neck of the woods. And therein lies my problem:

I live in a very rural region and so have no trustworthy support system. The nearest Messianic communities lie over 150 mi. to the east and west of me. While I keep the Sabbath, I still must worship on Sundays as well with a mainstream church in order to "not forsake the fellowship". It is difficult sitting under their doctrines, some of which I now believe to be patently false. When I challenge these points, I'm met either with skepticism or often outright anger, and always with denial. So it is a little difficult for me as a new convert to sort through a lot of what I'm learning.

I do get the Torah Parsha each week online. My library is expanding in reverse proportion to my wallet thickness. And I regularly pray for discernment then plunge into the infinite mass of "knowledge" here on the world-wide-web. None of this is the same as having a local congregation with which to study and where I can find support.

There are bound to be others here who are in similar circumstances How do some of you handle this type situation? What are some reliable resources for someone new looking for answers? I mean other than coming here and reading the archives, of course! Anyone know of any good online Shabbat services?

Thanks,
Dan

Click to expand...

Yes, I've sent you a PM. (I hope you don't mind.)

dnc101 said:

For the last 2 yrs. I've been looking into the Messianic views, and am more and more convinced of the truth in this movement. I say this even though I've encountered a lot of disagreement and even craziness in the few who are in it in my neck of the woods. And therein lies my problem:

I live in a very rural region and so have no trustworthy support system. The nearest Messianic communities lie over 150 mi. to the east and west of me. While I keep the Sabbath, I still must worship on Sundays as well with a mainstream church in order to "not forsake the fellowship". It is difficult sitting under their doctrines, some of which I now believe to be patently false. When I challenge these points, I'm met either with skepticism or often outright anger, and always with denial. So it is a little difficult for me as a new convert to sort through a lot of what I'm learning.

I do get the Torah Parsha each week online. My library is expanding in reverse proportion to my wallet thickness. And I regularly pray for discernment then plunge into the infinite mass of "knowledge" here on the world-wide-web. None of this is the same as having a local congregation with which to study and where I can find support.

There are bound to be others here who are in similar circumstances How do some of you handle this type situation? What are some reliable resources for someone new looking for answers? I mean other than coming here and reading the archives, of course! Anyone know of any good online Shabbat services?

Thanks,
Dan

Click to expand...

Shalom

Paltalk HHMI Beit Yacov Shabbat Mornings

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Watchman of Zion Past updates and teachings

a lot of good resources, teachers, articles: Restoring the Two Houses of Israel

Waytozion.org

Ebed_232

macher, no 7th Day Baptists anywhere around here. Thx.

yedida, got your PM, sent you a reply. I also updated my profile if you want to know a little more about me. Sha'vu'a tov.

Ebed, todah! I'll ceck those out now.

dnc101 said:

yedida, got your PM, sent you a reply. I also updated my profile if you want to know a little more about me. Sha'vu'a tov.

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I never got your reply. I'll send another PM with the info for you.

Shalom, and welcome to CF & the MJ forum! I, like you, was also a recovering Baptist/evangelical ... and even though I'm not in a very rural area, it's still difficult finding fellowship, so I know what you're going through!

Many of us heard the beat of a different drummer, have been called out, and are like you working on shedding that this is tradition views for that which is closer to the truth. May you be blessed to continue to hear His voice and to continue to follow Him. Could you give us the area you live in, and we will see if we know of any home groups that might be in your area?

Shalom,

I'm in the same predicament. I was raised AoG, and am now Messianic.

My family is still Pentecostal, and we struggle there. We attend a charismatic church on Sunday, and I study Torah on Shabbat. I like watching 119 Ministries on Netflix, and am a big Mark Biltz fan. I'm still looking for a MJ congregation in my area.

Pick and choose your battles. YHWH may have a calling for you to witness in your existing church.

Mazock said:

Shalom,

I'm in the same predicament. I was raised AoG, and am now Messianic.

My family is still Pentecostal, and we struggle there. We attend a charismatic church on Sunday, and I study Torah on Shabbat. I like watching 119 Ministries on Netflix, and am a big Mark Biltz fan. I'm still looking for a MJ congregation in my area.

Pick and choose your battles. YHWH may have a calling for you to witness in your existing church.

Click to expand...

We desperately need people to do this as a ministry!

Mazock said:

Shalom,

I'm in the same predicament. I was raised AoG, and am now Messianic.

My family is still Pentecostal, and we struggle there. We attend a charismatic church on Sunday, and I study Torah on Shabbat. I like watching 119 Ministries on Netflix, and am a big Mark Biltz fan. I'm still looking for a MJ congregation in my area.

Pick and choose your battles. YHWH may have a calling for you to witness in your existing church.

Click to expand...

Just a generalized statement.

Messianic views have become very very popular in the last few years and basically, this fad started in the early or mid 1990's. Because of the growing popularity, some have worked to gather a following.

Messianic Judaism itself is quite old, some say starting in 33 ce, but practically, the term came into prevalent use in the 1970's when Martin Chernoff started to call his organization the Messianic Jewish Alliance. The MJAA is essentially an association with the full members of Jewish believers in Messiah, who come together to learn, discuss issues Jewish believers face, and to share the gospel with the Jewish people as a united group.

Out of this faddishness, various groups calling themselves Messianic or Hebrew roots have sprouted up in large numbers. Many of these new groups are predominantly Gentiles and teach a theology view which has been renounced by Messianic Judaism. Included in those theologies is Two House theology.

Just a warning to beware of what you are learning from and involved in. Messianic Judaism teaches Jewish roots, and the other Messianics teach Hebrew roots, so if a teacher talks about Hebrew roots, they are most likely not part of Messianic Judaism.

Now for Mark Blitz. Mark teaches Hebrew roots, but I don't see an indication that he is Two House. However, Hebrew roots is kind of a flag that he is not teaching according to the beliefs of Messianic Judaism. Now, I am not familiar with what he is actually teaching, but the flag expressions are generally reliable as Messianic Judaism does not use the term Hebrew roots.

Just another statement on Mark Blitz. Apparently he is working with John Hagee, which is another 'flag'. Messianic Judaism in general does not support or work with John Hagee due to Hagees theology. Hagee teaches that the Jewish people already have a covenant, and therefore it is a waste of time and money to share the gospel with the Jewish people. There is a whole lot more to this, but Messianic Judaism is dedicated to sharing the gospel with our families, the Jewish people, so would oppose Hagees teaching to Gentiles, not to share the gospel with the Jewish people.

Hagees, 'Night to Honor Israel' is one of those organization which collect huge sums of money to assist Israel. Messianic Judaism is all for supporting and assisting Israel, but the leader of Christians United for Israel which sponsors the 'Night to Honor Israel', opposes any sharing of the gospel with the Jewish people. The leader is Jewish, not Messianic Jewish so of course he would not want Jewish people to hear about Yeshua. However, he boasts in a book, that in the meetings, no Jewish person has ever accepted Yeshua in the meetings, and the meetings actually work against Jewish people accepting Yeshua. Why? Because the Gentiles who go to those meetings are far less likely and discouraged from sharing the good news of the Jewish Messiah.

In otherwords, do research, and use a lot of discernment, as there are some good but a lot questionable or bad.

Qnts2,

I appreciate reading your insigthful posts. Would be interested in your take on Sid Roth’s, ‘Messianic Vision’ and his often quoted phrase "Its Naturally Supernatural." I ask this because there seems to be a lack of posts on this forum about the importance of the indwelling presence and empowering of Ruach HaKodesh in a believer’s born again experience as a new creation in Yeshua HaMashiach.

John 1:32-34 (CJB)
32 Then Yochanan gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit coming down from heaven like a dove, and remaining on him.
33 I myself did not know who he was, but the one who sent me to immerse in water said to me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining, this is the one who immerses in the Ruach HaKodesh.’
34 And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God.

Baptist’s are generally viewed as being cessationists as there are few charismatic Baptist congregations. I knew of one family that left a Baptist church and started attending a Free Evangelical Church. It got back to them that someone in their previous Baptist congregation made the comment that, “Now they are free to do whatever they want.” I guess that’s why some Christians believe Baptists are too legalistic. Any way, Free Evangelical Churches are also considered to be ‘cessationists’ (same as Baptist doctrine) as opposed to the ‘continualist’ doctrine of charismatic and Pentecostal Christians.

It would be interesting to start a thread or poll to see whether the majority of Messianic members are more of the cessationist persuasion or of the continualist persuasion. Has this ever been done on this forum? Or is it too divisive even in a Messanic forum.? I presume the enquiring mind of a “Recovering Baptist” would at least like to know if there is any consensus as to which doctrine is more prevalent among Messianic Judaism congregations.

there are as many opinions in MJ as there are elsewhere.

Most Messianic Jews are continuists. Although not all.

The MJAA and the UMJC are both continuist. The AMC (Association of Messianic congregations) is cessationist. During the Toronto 'blessing', some of the Messianic synagogues became involved. That was one of the reasons the AMC was formed. The leadership the formed the AMC tended more toward cessationist views, and the Toronto movement was simply to much for them.

I am personally a continuist, as are most I know. And I knew a Messianic Jew who did not have a Messianic congregation to attend, so they went to a Baptist church. They were a Messianic Jewish continuist in a Baptist church.

Other then the Toronto movement synagogues, for the most part, I say Messianic Judaism is continuist but not quite as visible or vocal as the Charismatics or Pentacostals. Messianic Judaism does not hold to the baptism of the Holy Spirit as only evidenced by speaking in tongues. And I am unaware of any Messianic Jewish synagogues which are involved in Kingdom Now/Manifest sons/7 mountain mandate type of things. Kingdom Now and Manifest Sons tends to be Replacement theology.

This forum has members which are not typical of the MJAA or UMJC or the AMC so they will have to answer for themselves.

As far as Sid Roth, I generally do not follow what he says. I know he is definitely a continuist, but is a bit more into some views then I am.

Is the supernatural a part of a believers life? Absolutely. I have seen God do some absolutely amazing things. I think my view is that signs and wonders are to follow us. In todays Charismatic and Pentacostal churches, I sometimes see what appears to be believers chasing after the signs and wonders rather then letting them follow us. Most of the signs and wonders are a testimony for non-believers, so for the most part, I see God doing some powerful things outside of the synagogue and church.

In some areas of Messianic Judaism, there is more discussion on the indwelling and empowering. At least I discuss such things more among other Messianic Jews. Maybe one of the weaknesses of the internet, and todays popularity of Messianic things is that most questions on these forums tend more to be about Jewish things, and the Mosaic law, over the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the power of the believers life.

When I came to believe on Yeshua, I was at the tail end of a multi-year move of God among the Jewish people. There were hundreds of Jewish people who got some kind of urge to read the NT. We read the NT, and came to realize Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. And each of us thought we were the only Jewish people who believed such a thing as we did not know of any other Jewish people who believed on Yeshua. At that time, our testimonies were so similar, we could practically finish each others testimonies. With that kind of miraculous move, it was natural to be continuists.

WOFFED said:

Qnts2,

I appreciate reading your insigthful posts. Would be interested in your take on Sid Roth’s, ‘Messianic Vision’ and his often quoted phrase "Its Naturally Supernatural." I ask this because there seems to be a lack of posts on this forum about the importance of the indwelling presence and empowering of Ruach HaKodesh in a believer’s born again experience as a new creation in Yeshua HaMashiach.

John 1:32-34 (CJB)
32 Then Yochanan gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit coming down from heaven like a dove, and remaining on him.
33 I myself did not know who he was, but the one who sent me to immerse in water said to me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining, this is the one who immerses in the Ruach HaKodesh.’
34 And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God.

Baptist’s are generally viewed as being cessationists as there are few charismatic Baptist congregations. I knew of one family that left a Baptist church and started attending a Free Evangelical Church. It got back to them that someone in their previous Baptist congregation made the comment that, “Now they are free to do whatever they want.” I guess that’s why some Christians believe Baptists are too legalistic. Any way, Free Evangelical Churches are also considered to be ‘cessationists’ (same as Baptist doctrine) as opposed to the ‘continualist’ doctrine of charismatic and Pentecostal Christians.

It would be interesting to start a thread or poll to see whether the majority of Messianic members are more of the cessationist persuasion or of the continualist persuasion. Has this ever been done on this forum? Or is it too divisive even in a Messanic forum.? I presume the enquiring mind of a “Recovering Baptist” would at least like to know if there is any consensus as to which doctrine is more prevalent among Messianic Judaism congregations.

Click to expand...

Qnts2 said:

Just a generalized statement.

Messianic views have become very very popular in the last few years and basically, this fad started in the early or mid 1990's. Because of the growing popularity, some have worked to gather a following.

Messianic Judaism itself is quite old, some say starting in 33 ce, but practically, the term came into prevalent use in the 1970's when Martin Chernoff started to call his organization the Messianic Jewish Alliance. The MJAA is essentially an association with the full members of Jewish believers in Messiah, who come together to learn, discuss issues Jewish believers face, and to share the gospel with the Jewish people as a united group.

Out of this faddishness, various groups calling themselves Messianic or Hebrew roots have sprouted up in large numbers. Many of these new groups are predominantly Gentiles and teach a theology view which has been renounced by Messianic Judaism. Included in those theologies is Two House theology.

Just a warning to beware of what you are learning from and involved in. Messianic Judaism teaches Jewish roots, and the other Messianics teach Hebrew roots, so if a teacher talks about Hebrew roots, they are most likely not part of Messianic Judaism.

Now for Mark Blitz. Mark teaches Hebrew roots, but I don't see an indication that he is Two House. However, Hebrew roots is kind of a flag that he is not teaching according to the beliefs of Messianic Judaism. Now, I am not familiar with what he is actually teaching, but the flag expressions are generally reliable as Messianic Judaism does not use the term Hebrew roots.

Just another statement on Mark Blitz. Apparently he is working with John Hagee, which is another 'flag'. Messianic Judaism in general does not support or work with John Hagee due to Hagees theology. Hagee teaches that the Jewish people already have a covenant, and therefore it is a waste of time and money to share the gospel with the Jewish people. There is a whole lot more to this, but Messianic Judaism is dedicated to sharing the gospel with our families, the Jewish people, so would oppose Hagees teaching to Gentiles, not to share the gospel with the Jewish people.

Hagees, 'Night to Honor Israel' is one of those organization which collect huge sums of money to assist Israel. Messianic Judaism is all for supporting and assisting Israel, but the leader of Christians United for Israel which sponsors the 'Night to Honor Israel', opposes any sharing of the gospel with the Jewish people. The leader is Jewish, not Messianic Jewish so of course he would not want Jewish people to hear about Yeshua. However, he boasts in a book, that in the meetings, no Jewish person has ever accepted Yeshua in the meetings, and the meetings actually work against Jewish people accepting Yeshua. Why? Because the Gentiles who go to those meetings are far less likely and discouraged from sharing the good news of the Jewish Messiah.

In otherwords, do research, and use a lot of discernment, as there are some good but a lot questionable or bad.

Click to expand...

Not all hebrew root teaching is bad, just as not all of any organization in the faith is bad. We all have our faults and all have teachings that will be revealed to be faulty in HIs Presence. I like both Hagee and Blitz... just remember to run it all by the Lord.... It is to Him we owe our allegiance and not any man.

Qnts2 said:

The MJAA and the UMJC are both continuist. The AMC (Association of Messianic congregations) is cessationist. During the Toronto 'blessing', some of the Messianic synagogues became involved. That was one of the reasons the AMC was formed. The leadership the formed the AMC tended more toward cessationist views, and the Toronto movement was simply to much for them.

Click to expand...

MJAA is definately continuist. Dr Michael Brown as well.

visionary said:

Not all hebrew root teaching is bad, just as not all of any organization in the faith is bad. We all have our faults and all have teachings that will be revealed to be faulty in HIs Presence.

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So much of the hebrew root teaching is bad, and so little is worth while. I view it like a trash dump. There is probably good food in a garbage dump, but you have to sort thru a lot of bad garbage to find the bit of good food, so it is not a good place to forage for food, unless there is absolutely no other food to be had. If a person has a bible, they have good food and are better off reading it for themselves then listening to Hebrew roots if that is all they have for teachers.

Qnts2 said:

So much of the hebrew root teaching is bad, and so little is worth while. I view it like a trash dump. There is probably good food in a garbage dump, but you have to sort thru a lot of bad garbage to find the bit of good food, so it is not a good place to forage for food, unless there is absolutely no other food to be had. If a person has a bible, they have good food and are better off reading it for themselves then listening to Hebrew roots if that is all they have for teachers.

Click to expand...

blanket trashing may be your defense mechanisms but show little respect.