Dan. 12:11-12: 1,290 days and 1,335 days?

rollinTHUNDER · Jan 16, 2013

AlfredKeith said:
Now, regarding the Judgment Seat of Christ, the question remains about whether this occurs in heaven or on earth. To deal with this question, I will expand on what the Bible says. When Christ returns at Armageddon, this event will be seen across the entire universe: in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. In Rev 1:7, when Christ returns, "every eye will see him, even those that pierced him (NIV)." The people that crucified Christ are dead and in hell today, yet they will see Christ's return. When he returns, his glory will be revealed across the entire universe.

Hi Alfred,
I believe "even those that pierced Him" is referring to the Jews living in (Israel) who rejected Him. Those that have already passed away, they will wait until after the millennium at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:7-13). Only the righteous will be raised up in the 1st resurrection when Christ returns.

Phil 2:9-11 tells us that one day every knee will bow and every person will acknowledge Christ as Lord "in heaven, on earth, and under the earth." When Christ returns, this event will be fulfilled. When his glory is revealed, everybody in heaven, on earth, and in hell will bow their knee and acknowledge who Christ is. Isaiah 45:22-24 adds to this and tells us that everybody who opposed Christ will come and be put to shame. Psalm 22:29 also corroborates the same thing said in Isaiah. (Funny to note that this verse also alludes to some type of feast...maybe a wedding feast....)

From this I conclude that all of creation will one day bow their knees to Christ.

Everyone will bow, but not all on the same day. In the Old Testament, they didn't know that the two resurrections would be separated by 1000 years, but it came to light in the New Testament. We see both resurrections in Daniel 12:2, but he had no way of knowing this either. No one knew this until the New Testament.

Now comes the question of judgment. Rom 14:9-12 warns of a coming judgment when "every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God (NIV)." "We will all stand before God's judgment seat (NIV)." These verses refer to the Judgment Seat of Christ (also known as the Bema Seat in the original Greek). The Pre-Tribbers argue that this Judgment Seat is only for believers and occurs in heaven. I argue that this judgment occurs after Christ returns at Armageddon and includes all people: "in heaven, on earth, and under the earth."

The question is: does scripture corroborate the view that both believers and nonbelievers will appear at the Judgment (Bema) Seat of Christ? II Tim 4:1 tells us that Christ is ready to judge "the living and the dead."

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

The same here. The quick and the dead saints at His appearing (rapture), where the quick are those living believers that will be changed and the dead believers will be raised to life in this 1st resurrection. There will also be living unbelievers that will be killed when He comes, and they will be raised up again (resurrected) after the thousand year kingdom at the great white throne judgment for the second death (eternal).

Additionally, Rev 11:18 tells us "the time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants...." These verses make strong indicators that believers and nonbelievers will all be judged together. For that to happen, it would have to occur after Christ returns, not during the Tribulation. Also, this judgment is not confined to earth, It also includes people that are currently in hell.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The nations being angry shows the great tribulation (see also Dan. 12:1), then follows rewards for the righteous (rapture), which precedes the Day of the Lord's wrath (like days of Noah), which will destroy the evil ones (goats) living on the earth, while the sheep will be protected. The sheep are the ones that had their works burned up (wood, hay and stubble). They too, belong to Him and will be saved (protected), but only as one going through the flames. The sheep will remain in their flesh and be ruled over by Christ and His saints for 1000 years.

rollinTHUNDER · Jan 16, 2013

I'm out of time now, but I'll return later to tell why I believe the bema seat judgment of Christ takes place in heaven.

rollinTHUNDER · Jan 16, 2013

AlfredKeith said:
Now, regarding the Judgment Seat of Christ, the question remains about whether this occurs in heaven or on earth.

Hi Alfred,

This is a very complex question you ask here. The Bible doesn't tell us everything about this, but there are some puzzle pieces that we can put together. Most believers I've listened to and commentators I've read believe the entire church will be raptured, where individual believers will receive their rewards for their works. However, it appears this belief causes major problems when we try relating it to some scriptures and several parables as well. As you know, the scriptures are all rock solid truth, so if anything needs to change, it's our beliefs, assumptions and misconceptions. Since God is not bound by what men believe, we need to make sure that what we believe lines up with His Word. Lets take a look at some of the clues.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Many of us don't really give this judgment seat of Christ much thought, but we really should. Here's the way I understand it. It won't be like being in a court room with men as our judges. We're talking about an all knowing God that sees everything and nothing in our lives is hidden from His eyes. He doesn't even need us to appear to make His righteous judgment. As soon as He leaves His throne in heaven and descends in the clouds, He will have already reached His decision, and He will be bringing His reward with Him when He comes. Whatever we have said and done will be judged, and no words will justify any defense we might think we'll have for not doing what we should have done. He warned us all to be ready, but what does that really mean? Will we all be ready? The answer to these questions are found hidden in His parables and scattered throughout His Word.

AlfredKeith · Jan 16, 2013

rollinTHUNDER said:
Hi Alfred,
I believe "even those that pierced Him" is referring to the Jews living in (Israel) who rejected Him. Those that have already passed away, they will wait until after the millennium at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:7-13). Only the righteous will be raised up in the 1st resurrection when Christ returns.

Everyone will bow, but not all on the same day. In the Old Testament, they didn't know that the two resurrections would be separated by 1000 years, but it came to light in the New Testament. We see both resurrections in Daniel 12:2, but he had no way of knowing this either. No one knew this until the New Testament.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

The same here. The quick and the dead saints at His appearing (rapture), where the quick are those living believers that will be changed and the dead believers will be raised to life in this 1st resurrection. There will also be living unbelievers that will be killed when He comes, and they will be raised up again (resurrected) after the thousand year kingdom at the great white throne judgment for the second death (eternal).

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The nations being angry shows the great tribulation (see also Dan. 12:1), then follows rewards for the righteous (rapture), which precedes the Day of the Lord's wrath (like days of Noah), which will destroy the evil ones (goats) living on the earth, while the sheep will be protected. The sheep are the ones that had their works burned up (wood, hay and stubble). They too, belong to Him and will be saved (protected), but only as one going through the flames. The sheep will remain in their flesh and be ruled over by Christ and His saints for 1000 years.

One point of calrification here: I agree with everything you say regarding the resurrections of the righteous before the Millennial Kingdom and the unrighteous after. The point I was trying to make here is that when Christ returns at Armageddon, his glory will be revealed across the entire universe--even in hell. At that time, everyone will bow and acknowledge Christ as Lord. I am not advocating that the unrighteous are resurrected at this time--they are just bowing to Christ.

AlfredKeith · Jan 16, 2013

rollinTHUNDER said:
This is a very complex question you ask here. The Bible doesn't tell us everything about this, but there are some puzzle pieces that we can put together. Most believers I've listened to and commentators I've read believe the entire church will be raptured, where individual believers will receive their rewards for their works. However, it appears this belief causes major problems when we try relating it to some scriptures and several parables as well. As you know, the scriptures are all rock solid truth, so if anything needs to change, it's our beliefs, assumptions and misconceptions. Since God is not bound by what men believe, we need to make sure that what we believe lines up with His Word.

Regarding the Judgment Seat of Christ, I will expand a little bit on my earlier post. The standard Pre-Trib framework is that there will be three judgments:

1. The Judgment Seat of Christ that will occur in heaven during the Tribulation. This is only for saints.
2. The Sheep and Goats Judgment after Armageddon. Christ will determine which survivors of the Tribulation will be allowed to remain in the Millennial Kingdom on earth.
3. The Great White Throne after the Millennial Kingdom. This is when the dead face the Judgment Seat.

I agree with this framework on points 2 & 3. On point 1, there seem to be some clear indicators that the Righteous are rewarded at the same time that the unrighteous are condemned (the goats of the judgment). Previous verses I mentioned are II Tim 4:1 and Rev 11:18--these clearly indicate that the righteous and unrighteous are judged together.

Then to expand on this, compare the Sheep and Goats Parable (Matt 25:31-46) with the Parable of the Talents (Matt 25:14-30). In both of these parables the righteous are recognized and rewarded for their good works (Matt 25:34-40 & 25:19-23), and the unrighteous are separated and sent to hell (Matt 25:41-46 & 25:24-30). These parables are interconnected in this way and indicate that the righteous and unrighteous are judged together on earth after Christ returns.

The Pre-Tribbers just do not provide scriptural evidence that convinces me that the Judgment Seat of Christ is in heaven for believers. Also, take note: this is in no way a rejection of a Pre-Trib Rapture. I am just not convinced that the Judgment Seat occurs in heaven during the Tribulation.

rollinTHUNDER · Jan 17, 2013

AlfredKeith said:
Regarding the Judgment Seat of Christ, I will expand a little bit on my earlier post. The standard Pre-Trib framework is that there will be three judgments:

1. The Judgment Seat of Christ that will occur in heaven during the Tribulation. This is only for saints.
2. The Sheep and Goats Judgment after Armageddon. Christ will determine which survivors of the Tribulation will be allowed to remain in the Millennial Kingdom on earth.
3. The Great White Throne after the Millennial Kingdom. This is when the dead face the Judgment Seat.

I agree with this framework on points 2 & 3. On point 1, there seem to be some clear indicators that the Righteous are rewarded at the same time that the unrighteous are condemned (the goats of the judgment). Previous verses I mentioned are II Tim 4:1 and Rev 11:18--these clearly indicate that the righteous and unrighteous are judged together.

Then to expand on this, compare the Sheep and Goats Parable (Matt 25:31-46) with the Parable of the Talents (Matt 25:14-30). In both of these parables the righteous are recognized and rewarded for their good works (Matt 25:34-40 & 25:19-23), and the unrighteous are separated and sent to hell (Matt 25:41-46 & 25:24-30). These parables are interconnected in this way and indicate that the righteous and unrighteous are judged together on earth after Christ returns.

The Pre-Tribbers just do not provide scriptural evidence that convinces me that the Judgment Seat of Christ is in heaven for believers. Also, take note: this is in no way a rejection of a Pre-Trib Rapture. I am just not convinced that the Judgment Seat occurs in heaven during the Tribulation.

Pre-tribbers remove the church before Daniel's 70th week begins. So from that perspective, it would take seven years to complete all of the judgments made in the parable of Talents (Matt. 25:14-46), which gives a complete overview of the resurrection of the righteous, along with the judgment of the wicked that are living when Christ returns. I don't see that happening.

We can see all three rewards and/or punishments for the righteous in this parable. But all of the parables in Matthew 24 & 25 are related, and all relate to Christ' answer to His disciples question in Matt.24:3, "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)?"

As for the judgment seat occuring in heaven, I believe only the believers who are ready will go in the rapture. The believers who aren't ready will be left and split into two groups: (1) martyrs who refuse the mark of the beast; and (2) sheep that will survive until the second coming. The sheep will lose their rewards and remain in their fleshly bodies as their works will be burned up, but the martyrs will be among the saints that return in glorified bodies to reign with Christ in the millennium.

Ebed · Feb 4, 2013

Superbowl XLVII = 207

POWER OUTAGE STOPS SUPER BOWL FOR 34 MINUTES

Thirty four minutes = 261 The United States of America = 261

barack hussein obama = 163 One hundred sixty three = 261

The Baltimore Ravens were leading the San Francisco 49ers 28-6 when most of the lights in the 73,000-seat building went out with 13:22 left in the third quarter Sunday night

officials revealed that an "abnormality" in the power system triggered an automatic shutdown

Yacob's Trouble 3/22/2013

Links are underlined

eclipsenow · Feb 4, 2013

Douggg said:
The 1335th day is the day of Jesus's Return at the end of the 7 years.

7 years x 360 days = day 2520

The abomination of desolation will be setup 1335 days before Jesus return. Therefore, day 2520 - 1335 = day 1185. On day 1185 of the 7 years the abomination of desolation will be setup.

It doesn't say in the bible what the 1290 days measure to. It is up to us to figure out. We know that it pertains to the abomination of desolation.

Counting forward from the day that the abomination of desolation will be setup on day 1185, that works out 1185 + 1290 days = day 2475.

Day 2475 is 45 days prior to the day that Jesus returns. So what happens on day 2475? I am very confident that it is on day 2475, the cosmos parts and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God in heaven, sickle in hand, to carry out judgment on the evil men of the world.

During the 45 days, the armies of the world gather at Armageddon to make war on Jesus, to keep him from judging them. On day 2520, the 1335th day, Jesus descends and destroys those armies, casts the Antichrist beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire, and has Satan chained and cast into the bottomless pit.

Doug

So we've got a clear timetable spelt out for us about the Lord's return a few hundred years before Jesus said not even he nor angels in heaven knew the date of his return! (Matthew 24). You're making the bible contradict itself.

dysert · Feb 4, 2013

eclipsenow said:
So we've got a clear timetable spelt out for us about the Lord's return a few hundred years before Jesus said not even he nor angels in heaven knew the date of his return! (Matthew 24). You're making the bible contradict itself.

Not really. The timetable is based on when the 7-year tribulation period starts. No one knows when that will be.

eclipsenow · Feb 4, 2013

dysert said:
Not really. The timetable is based on when the 7-year tribulation period starts. No one knows when that will be.

Matthew 24:

<span class="text Matt-24-36"><span class="woj">36 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,

eclipsenow · Feb 4, 2013

dysert said:
Not really. The timetable is based on when the 7-year tribulation period starts. No one knows when that will be.

Matthew 24:

36 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Note that this says Judgement Day comes in the middle of peace and marriage and normal life, not at the end of the 7 worst years of human history ever.
Note that this says Judgement comes unannounced, suddenly, and with terrible swiftness: not in a series of events.

40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.

Left for 7 years of Judgement? No! Left to be wiped out by the 'flood' as discussed in the previous verses: left for immediate Judgement.

So what are we to do? Sit around playing guessing games with this End Times table or that? No! We are to be busy with the gospel, not boring people with our own unique set of end times tables!

42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, My master is delayed, 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But this is how most futurists would respond...

36 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

Then the Seven-Year-Tribber replied: "Sorry Jesus, but I'm going to have to stop you there. Because WE do know! First there's there's the Abomination of Desolation, there's the 7 year Tribulation, there's all those plagues... come on! We've got a timetable worked out so we can guess EXACTLY when you return!
Then the Mid-Year-Tribber interrupted: "Seven years! Surely you've forgotten Daniel when he talks about the 3.5 years!"
Then the Pre-tribber shouted: "But none of that will matter because none of us will be here, we'll all be in heaven already because..."

And Jesus sighed, and walked over to his regular disciples, and started again.

36 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

dysert · Feb 4, 2013

I'm a (futurist) pre-tribber, and I believe the Bible -- including the part about no one knowing the time of His return. I think the time that no one knows, though, is the time of His return *for the Church*, i.e., the rapture. But there is a Scriptural timetable for what happens once the treaty with antichrist is established. Anyway, there are enough threads about pre/post-trib positions. This thread is about the meaning of the Daniel passages. What is your understanding of them?

Marantha · Feb 4, 2013

dysert said:
I don't know of any place in the Bible where it explicitly tells us what's going on during these two periods of time, but I was wondering if anyone had any theories? Obviously, there are 1,260 days from a/c's breaking of the covenant to the Second Coming, but what's going on during the extra month? And then, what's going on for another 45 days beyond that?

I just saw an absolutely incredible free documentary called "Daniel Unsealed" that explained this in a way that was no less than stunning. It's on youtube and is only an hour long. That is the best thing I've every seen to clarify ALL the dates in Daniel and Revelation. Please take a look at that Brothers and Sisters. It is truly incredible.... God Speed.

Marantha

dysert · Feb 4, 2013

Marantha said:
I just saw an absolutely incredible free documentary called "Daniel Unsealed" that explained this in a way that was no less than stunning. It's on youtube and is only an hour long. That is the best thing I've every seen to clarify ALL the dates in Daniel and Revelation. Please take a look at that Brothers and Sisters. It is truly incredible.... God Speed.

Marantha

Thanks, Marantha. I'll go looking for it.

Marantha · Feb 4, 2013

Also, there is no gain for me in recommending this free video. I recommended one more in another post as well. I'm no one outside of Christ except for the flesh which brings no good thing. The only two I mentioned are and will be the only two I recommend; and I recommended them because they are truly incredible; not a word I lightly use. God bless all my brothers and sisters out there as we wait for THE PRIZE promised to us. God speed.

Marantha

dysert · Feb 4, 2013

Marantha said:
Also, there is no gain for me in recommending this free video. I recommended one more in another post as well. I'm no one outside of Christ except for the flesh which brings no good thing. The only two I mentioned are and will be the only two I recommend; and I recommended them because they are truly incredible; not a word I lightly use. God bless all my brothers and sisters out there as we wait for THE PRIZE promised to us. God speed.

Marantha

Well I'm YouTube and looking for "Daniel Unsealed". There are tons of hits. Can you be more specific about which one is "truly incredible"? For example, who is it "by"? Thanks.

Marantha · Feb 4, 2013

dysert said:
Well I'm YouTube and looking for "Daniel Unsealed". There are tons of hits. Can you be more specific about which one is "truly incredible"? For example, who is it "by"? Thanks.

I'd be glad to. I'm not sure if I can put links up here if it works out here's the direct link:

(remove spaces)

http : // 119m inistries.com / daniel- unsealed

You should be able to pull it directly up there..... Be well

Douggg · Feb 4, 2013

Marantha said:
I just saw an absolutely incredible free documentary called "Daniel Unsealed" that explained this in a way that was no less than stunning. It's on youtube and is only an hour long. That is the best thing I've every seen to clarify ALL the dates in Daniel and Revelation. Please take a look at that Brothers and Sisters. It is truly incredible.... God Speed.

Marantha

I watched it and didn't see anything in the presentation that I agreed with.

Doug

dysert · Feb 4, 2013

Douggg said:
I watched it and didn't see anything in the presentation that I agreed with.

Doug

I listened to it too, but unless I zoned out I didn't hear him talking about the 1290 and 1335 days of Dan. 12:11-12. Did I miss that? (It may not matter because, like you, there was a lot I disagreed with.)

Marantha · Feb 4, 2013

Douggg said:
I watched it and didn't see anything in the presentation that I agreed with.

Doug

That's Ok. I'm still very glad you watched it. When these things begin to come to pass here very soon I believe you will change your mind. God speed brother.

Dan. 12:11-12: 1,290 days and 1,335 days?

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