No Final Agreement Yet Between the Holy See and Israel

mathetes123

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again, you are confusing the Biblical idea of a nation and the modern nation-state

does the Bible talk about God having two sets of chosen people?
anywhere, are there referances to two distinct groups both being God's chosen people?

The following verses make a distinction between the gentile believers and Israel.

Romans 11:25-36
The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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So when was this prophecy fulfilled?


It was fulfilled in Jess Coming.

Paul was speaking of the prophecy in Isaiah,

Then for Zion shall come a redeemer, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression—oracle of the LORD Isaiah, 59:20

He wasn't talking about the modern state of Israel.


Jim
 
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mathetes123

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It was fulfilled in Jess Coming.

Paul was speaking of the prophecy in Isaiah,



He wasn't talking about the modern state of Israel.


Jim

It couldn't possibly have been fulfilled at Jesus coming.

1) Paul was speaking of a future event after Jesus had already ascended to the right hand of God.

2) The time of the gentiles had not been completed.

3) Israel rejected Jesus when He came the first time. There was no restoration.

You cannot possibly have observed the history of Israel since it's rebirth in 1948, surviving countless wars with it's enemies that surround it on all side, and not see God in it.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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mathetes


1) Paul was speaking of a future event after Jesus had already ascended to the right hand of God.

He was speaking about what had already taken place.

2) The time of the gentiles had not been completed.

Salvation was brought to the gentiles, through Peter and Paul.

3) Israel rejected Jesus when He came the first time. There was no restoration.

The Salvation of Israel was made at Jesus Death and Resurrection.

The New Jerusalem exist in heaven, not on earth.

You cannot possibly have observed the history of Israel since it's rebirth in 1948, surviving countless wars with it's enemies that surround it on all side, and not see God in it.

Oh I have, which is why I do not believe it is the fulfillment of God's will that the Israeli government has persecuted Palestinians, many who are Christians BTW.

I think it's incorrect interpretation of Scripture to believe that the modern state of Israel was prophesied in Scripture.

Jim
 
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Zeek

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you seem to be confused
we are not talking about Biblical Israel in this thread, we are talking about the modern day nation-state with the same name

Can you please explain to me Rhamiel the difference between biblical Israel and the Israel we see today....do they have a different capital, are they located somewhere else, do they speak a different language, do they follow a different G-d?

On top of that did biblical Israel always follow G-d and obey Him in everything...and if not was He still their G-d and did He still attach His name to them as a nation, even when they were in disobedience?

Bearing this in mind, what makes you think that because you/others chose to call modern Israel a different Israel from the Israel spoken of in Romans chs 9-11, that G-d endorses this idea?

Many Jews never recognized the time of their visitation when Messiah came and dwelt in the flesh amongst them...perhaps many Christians these days do not recognize the prophetic sign-post that is modern Israel, amongst whom G-d is working to bring about His purposes in these days.

Ezekiel 28:25‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and will manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their land which I gave to My servant Jacob. 26“They will live in it securely; and they will build houses, plant vineyards and live securely when I execute judgments upon all who scorn them round about them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.”’”
 
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thereselittleflower

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The Fundamental Agreement Between the Holy See and the State of Israel was signed by the Holy See and the State of Israel on 30 December 1993. It deals with the property rights and tax exemptions of the Roman Catholic Church within Israeli territory. As a result of the Agreement, the Vatican established in 1994 full diplomatic relations with Israel, and appointed an Apostolic Nuncio to Israel. Several outstanding issues had still to be resolved.

On 10 November 1997, the Vatican and Israel entered into a further agreement, called Agreement Between the State of Israel and the Holy See, also referred to as the Legal Personality Agreement or the Agreement on the Legal Personality of the Church, but neither of these agreements have been passed by the Knesset. By the agreement, Israel recognised the juridical personality and the authority of canon law within the Catholic Church and its institutions, as well as those of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem and of the Eastern Catholic Patriarchates and their respective dioceses in the territory of Israel, and their recognition of prevailing Israeli law in civil and criminal matters.

Diplomatic tensions often arise due to the non-resolution of the accords relating to property rights and tax exemptions for the Church in Israel, the political activism of clergy in Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and the interplay between Israel-Vatican relations – on one hand – and the Jewish-Catholic inter-religious dialogue – on the other. The main concerns of the Vatican in Israel are the protection of the Latin Rite Catholic churches, their properties and assets, and of the Holy places. Israel, for its part, has often taken offense at matters perceived by the church to be internal, but which are of religious/historical consequence to Israel and to Jews around the world (e.g. the beatification of Pope Pius XII, the pardoning of a Holocaust-denying priest, the subordination of inter-religious dialogue to evangelical aims, etc.).

However, relations remain tense because of the non-fulfillment of the accords giving property rights and tax exemptions to the Vatican.


March 2011, Pages 48-49



Christianity and the Middle East


The Vanishing Church in the Holy Land

By Sir Jeffery M. Abood, KHS



For two thousand years, Christian communities have thrived there. Yet, over the last 60 years, their population has gone from their historical level of around 18 percent to less than 2 percent today. Never have the Christian communities in the Middle East been as close to extinction as they are now. According to Latin Patriarch Fouad Twal, "the future of the Church in the Holy Land is now in doubt unless fellow Christians around the world step up efforts to help them."
So why are these communities, long rooted in the historic land of their faith, now choosing to leave? And what does that mean for Christianity in the land where Jesus was born and preached?

First, when we speak of the Holy Land today, we generally mean Palestine and Israel. Oddly enough, the Christians living there seem almost like strangers to most of us. Many Westerners are not even aware that there are Christians in the Holy Land. Certainly many are also not aware that when we talk about the Christians there, we mean the Palestinians. Whether they live in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza, these Christians are all Palestinians (with the exception of recent immigrant worker communities) and have been living there for 2,000 years. They live as a double minority: as Christians in a largely Muslim culture, and as Palestinians living under Israeli military occupation.

Second, contrary to current popular opinion in this country, Christians are not leaving Israel/Palestine because of their Muslim neighbors. After all, for 1,500 years the Christian population has been relatively stable despite living in a largely Muslim culture. Even today, many of elected Palestinian leaders are Christians who enjoy popularity and a wide base of support.

The number one reason given by Christians as to why they are leaving is because of the economic conditions created by the Israeli occupation. In fact, according to a statement put out by the heads of all the churches in Jerusalem, "Occupation remains the root cause of the conflict and of the continued suffering in the Holy Land


Since the State of Israel first occupied Palestinian lands (partially in 1948, taking the rest in 1967) Christian residents have been leaving. As cited at the Middle East Synod, "the lack of freedom of movement, the wall of separation and the military checkpoints, the political prisoners, the demolition of homes, the disturbance of socioeconomic life and the thousands of refugees" have created such harsh conditions that many who can afford to leave have emigrated. Christians, who are generally well-educated and have connections in the West, have departed in great numbers.

State of the Church Today

While the government of Israel continues to state that it welcomes and protects the rights of all religions, a tree is known by its fruit—and Israel's actions say otherwise.

Most Christian-owned lands have been and continue to be confiscated for the building of illegal settlements for Jews only. The Home of Our Lady of Sorrows outside Jerusalem is only one of many examples. The Sisters there care for the elderly. Yet, Israel has constructed a giant wall on their property, effectively cutting off patients from their families and limiting access to the hospital access.

Israel also has denied visas to more than 500 religious workers and clergy to live and work in the West Bank and Gaza. Denied entry into Palestine, they are prevented from ministering to their people. Some priests are even afraid to leave, for fear they will not be allowed to return.

The Israeli government continues its efforts to remove the tax-exempt status of the Christian churches. A notable example is Augusta Victoria Hospital, which largely serves the Palestinian poor (see October 2003 Washington Report, p. 52). The government has gone to court to try not only to remove their exempt status but also to back them retroactively to 1967, when Israel first occupied East Jerusalem. This, of course, would force the hospital to shut its doors.

.....

Christians in the Holy Land can feel very isolated and cut off from the Church at large for two reasons. First, many of their fellow Christians in the West don't even realize there are Palestinian Christians, as we tend to think of the "Israel-Palestine" conflict as only a Muslim-Jewish issue. Thus the views of Palestinian Christians often are ignored—or not sought in the first place.

Secondly, many Christians in the West seem to hold kind of a default Christian Zionist viewpoint, which actually works to the detriment of our brothers and sisters there. Christian Zionism is an oxymoron, the practice of which is rooted in violence and exclusivism—things that are the very antithesis of Jesus' teachings
 
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thereselittleflower

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TLF, what does that stuff about the zionist gangs trying to make a deal with the Third Reich have to do with anything?

I mean, the Nazis were the ones killing the Jews... should they not tried to have come up with some kind of compromise that might have ended up saving the jewish people?
I mean Hitler was sweaping across Europe, I can understand why some jews might see a vassal state as the only way to save their race
also, they would have had more security then they would have had at any time before then

Hey there Rhamiel - Just wanted to let you know I did see this and will respond. This really has nothing to do with anything like a vassal state. Poligical Zionism is opportunistic and does not discriminate regarding who it will allign itself with to obtain its goals. Neither does it care what evils it might resosrt to in order to obtain the same. I did post some examples to begin to show the link between zionist ideology and philosophy and their activities in regards to nazism and the Holocaust. But more needs to be presented. I haven't forgotten. :)
 
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Zeek

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I am sorry, you seem to be mistaken
God says that He will save a remnant of Israel
that remnant has been saved, those jews who have joined the Christian Church
those Jews who reject Christ as Lord are in a state of rebellion against God
read the Old Testament and see what happens when the Jews go against God
I will summarize it for you, Bad Things Happen

you are confusing Biblical Israel, the people of God
with the modern day nation-state with the same name

I don't believe I am confusing anything.

I was unaware that G-d called His Church, 'the Christian Church'...all I know is that the body of Believers called out of darkness into the Kingdom of His dear Son are the redeemed of the L-rd, and consist of believing Jews, and Gentiles who believe in the Jewish Messiah...we are grafted in.

Col 1:13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Yes there are dire warnings in the Old Covenant, and the Jewish people have undoubtedly suffered greatly as a consequence...but there are many warnings in the New Covenant that are just as valid, and are applicable to Gentile Believers, especially the manner in which they treat G-ds covenant people.

Romans 11:20-21 "....Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either."
 
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thereselittleflower

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I am sorry, you seem to be mistaken
God says that He will save a remnant of Israel
that remnant has been saved, those jews who have joined the Christian Church
those Jews who reject Christ as Lord are in a state of rebellion against God
read the Old Testament and see what happens when the Jews go against God
I will summarize it for you, Bad Things Happen

you are confusing Biblical Israel, the people of God
with the modern day nation-state with the same name

Exactly.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Modern day Israel is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.


Mathetes, while I totally understand this is what you believe, it is not what the Catholic Church teaches and this is the Catholic forum. You're welcome to fellowship with us and ask us questions, but promoting ideas and beliefs that are contrary to Catholic teaching shouldn't be happening here.
 
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thereselittleflower

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I don't believe I am confusing anything.

I was unaware that G-d called His Church, 'the Christian Church'...all I know is that the body of Believers called out of darkness into the Kingdom of His dear Son are the redeemed of the L-rd, and consist of believing Jews, and Gentiles who believe in the Jewish Messiah...we are grafted in.

Col 1:13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Yes there are dire warnings in the Old Covenant, and the Jewish people have undoubtedly suffered greatly as a consequence...but there are many warnings in the New Covenant that are just as valid, and are applicable to Gentile Believers, especially the manner in which they treat G-ds covenant people.

Romans 11:20-21 "....Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either."

Zazal, the same thing is true regarding promoting your position - that the current state of Israel being fulfillment of bible prophecy is not what the Catholic Church teaches and this is the Catholic forum. You're welcome to fellowship with us and ask us questions, but promoting ideas and beliefs that are contrary to Catholic teaching shouldn't be happening here.
 
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Zeek

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again, you are confusing the Biblical idea of a nation and the modern nation-state

does the Bible talk about God having two sets of chosen people?
anywhere, are there referances to two distinct groups both being God's chosen people?

Yes the Bible makes it abundantly clear that there is the Church which consists of saved Jews and Gentiles, and there is physical Israel.......it is to this group that the grace of G-d and His mercy is also extending in these days, just as written in Scripture.

Rom 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
 
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thereselittleflower

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What is very interseting in regards to the Church in the Holy Land and applies directly to the topic of this thread and how long it is taking for the Catholic Church to reach agreements with Israel is the Christian community in the Holy Land thrived and was stable even under Muslim rule for 2000 years - yes it had its moments .. but it thrived and has always been significantly present . .until now . . under Israeli rule .. .it is virtually non existant. . . .see my post about this above for the reasons the Palestinian Christians give for leaving in Mass ... it is Israeli oppression.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Yes the Bible makes it abundantly clear that there is the Church which consists of saved Jews and Gentiles, and there is physical Israel.......it is to this group that the grace of G-d and His mercy is also extending in these days, just as written in Scripture.

Rom 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Zazal, please stop promoting non-Catholic teaching in OBOB. This is not the place to contradict our beliefs or debate them The Church does not at all teach that there is a physical Israel, or that the current State of Israel is evidence of any such thing, to which God is extending His Grace and Mercy in these days, nor that any such thing is written in scripture.

If you want to understand what we believe that's great. But using OBOB as a platform to promote your own in opposition to ours, isn't.
 
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Zeek

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Zazal, the same thing is true regarding promoting your position - that the current state of Israel being fulfillment of bible prophecy is not what the Catholic Church teaches and this is the Catholic forum. You're welcome to fellowship with us and ask us questions, but promoting ideas and beliefs that are contrary to Catholic teaching shouldn't be happening here.

I understand that, but I am not trying to oppose Catholic doctrine in any way ,shape or form...I was trying to put forward a position that is found in Scripture and applies to all of us Christians...surely part of fellowshipping together means an exchange of ideas.

How am I supposed to know when I am going against specific Catholic doctrine when I don't fully understand the doctrine I am allegedly opposing in the first place? I don't even know if what is being said by some Catholics comes out of the tops of their heads or is the official position...if you can point me to the Catholic doctrine on this subject I will happily read it, and shut up if I am indeed opposing it.
 
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StarOfSorrow

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From the point of view of the Vatican, Israel – Holy See relations are maintained on political and theological levels. The Vatican view of the Israeli ambassador is that he is a representative of Israel and not of the Jewish people. If he accompanies a religious delegation, the Jewish religious leaders present must be Israeli citizens. Any similar delegation composed of non-Israeli Jews would be accompanied by the respective national ambassador. For Israel, as with most states, the ability to assess diplomatic relations with a state that is lacking economic relations, cannot be quantifiable. Furthermore, since the Vatican is not a full member of any international organisation but only an observer and since official Vatican statements are phrased in extremely nuanced language, much public diplomacy amounts to interpreting papal statements. Thus, in order to understand this unique relationship, traditional parameters must be replaced with a framework that employs a totally different set of parameters:

First parameter – the asymmetry in scope of representation

From the point of view of the Vatican, the Nuncio, as the Ambassador of the Holy See, has at the same time both political and theological functions. He is a high ecclesiastical dignitary with the title of archbishop, and may, from the Vatican point of view, perform his religious office, and must care about the well-being of all the Catholics in Israel, including intervention on their behalf with the authorities. On the other hand, he will not participate in the Presidential New Year reception in honour of the Jewish non-religious leadership. He would rather prefer to participate in the annual reception for the diplomatic corps. By doing so, he underlines the quality of the Vatican as a full-fledged member of the international community as a sovereign state.

Second parameter – intertwining theological and political mode of action

The theological and political levels of performing the duties of a Nuncio are intertwined. When he requests to enter an area of restricted accessibility for the purpose of holding mass, he is making a request in the name of religious freedom. Once his request is respected, it is regarded as a political gesture, meeting the expectations of religious freedom, but also in order to maintain friendly bilateral relations. If, however, he speaks to the media about his visit upon his return, it may be seen as a political and not as a spiritual act. This interplay enables using political tools to ease theological tensions that cannot be solved without one side or the other disavowing his faith.

Third parameter – intertwining freedom of religion and security

The opposite case would involve, for example, the issuance of visas, one acceptable gauge of measuring relations between states, which should ideally be a transparent process. Extending visa permits to Catholic clergy is, for the Vatican, a matter of exercising freedom of religion. If, however, a clergy holds passports from states that are at war with, or do not recognize Israel, the matter is regarded by Israeli authorities rather as a security issue. The result of one side's existential caution may be seen by the other side as an infringement upon freedom of religion.
 
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Rhamiel

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Yes the Bible makes it abundantly clear that there is the Church which consists of saved Jews and Gentiles, and there is physical Israel.......it is to this group that the grace of G-d and His mercy is also extending in these days, just as written in Scripture.

Rom 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

it is interesting
when this was being written, Israel was not a nation
it was a Provence of the roman empire
this is the ancient understanding of a "nation" or a people
maybe this verse is referancing all jews together? not a modern nationstate

lol just like how you do not like to see the Church as being a hierarchical body
like how Catholics see the Church
but you see the nation of Israel as being a modern nation?
I see it more as the opposite

also what does Jesus say about the leaders of Israel at the time?
 
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