Gods Sabbath Day

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squint

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All 613 laws in the Torah define sin. So yes, not observing Shabbat is sinning. If you haven't accepted Yeshua as the Messiah, then YES you are condemned to hell. If you repent of your sin and ask Yeshua into your heart, then you will go to heaven. Easy enough.

Do I sin?

Every day.


But my salvation is through Yeshua Ha'Mashiach!

Once again... I observe as many of the laws of the Torah as possible, because I love YHWH.

:)

and ends it with a smiley face no less.

if you scroll back a bit uh, well, it was coming even when you denied it was so.

funny how that works isn't it?

legalist's seldom see the cloak of hypocrisy that ensnares their mind.

s
 
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Elder 111

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What exactly is it that makes you unable to understand this?:

A. The Word Is Living and Active

B. The Word of the Old Testament became flesh

The Word's arrival in flesh, The Path and Ways of Him were all written of Him long before His Arrival as was His Death and Resurrection.

All of that is in The Law and The Prophets, Him speaking of Himself therein.

and THEN it is further shown that the Word would be IN US.

That is where The Word resides today. IN PART. As A TOKEN. A SEED of promise. The Word is not type on pages on a book and rituals. We may understand Him by His Words, but they are not Him. What are you thinking?

God Is A Spirit. His Spirit is Love. Love guides a man all the days of his believing life and will raise us at the end of our lives to be with Him forever.

Is it illegal to do the Sabbath on Saturday? Of course not. Is it illegal to not eat pork? Of course not. We live by the conscience dictates of our hearts.

Does your conscience tell you to condemn others to potential eternal death for not doing things as you see them? For 'their sin?' If so, there are other avenues for you to understand as that practice is not of God.

Such people abide in death and hypocrisy.

The Law, in part, is an exposure of the fact of having sin, not a way to avoid the fact of having it.

s
All that you have said does not answer the question.
 
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Elder 111

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Because that's how we'll continue in sin, by focusing on that which only reflects our sinfulness, we are to look to Christ and imitate him, by doing so we focus upon the righteousness which has been imputed to us through the Cross.
Christ kept the Sabbath so in imitating Him we too would have to keep the Sabbath.
 
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squint

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All that you have said does not answer the question.

What question?

When it comes to the Sabbath there are only two camps of understandings:

A. Those who think they are temporarily sinless when being obedient to the Sabbath Law (whatever form of same they follow, which is an entirely separate set of questions)

or

B. Those who do not consider themselves temporarily sinless even while being obedient/legal to the Sabbath Law.

Which camp are you in?

If you have another alternative you are welcome to put it out.

The guy just ahead of you claimed he was temporarily sinless, but then 'truthfully' admitted he sinned 'every day' so he must not be 'too legal' on the Sabbath by his own admissions sinning on that day even while supposedly being legal on the Sabbath.

s
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by progmonk Because that's how we'll continue in sin, by focusing on that which only reflects our sinfulness, we are to look to Christ and imitate him, by doing so we focus upon the righteousness which has been imputed to us through the Cross.
Christ kept the Sabbath so in imitating Him we too would have to keep the Sabbath.
You would think so...



.
 
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Stryder06

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He didn't keep it in the way you are advocating, his life was service and worship of his Father, his life was Sabbath.

How are we advocating keeping the Sabbath? What's different in what we're saying and in what Christ did? And a life of service isn't a "Sabbath" life. It's a life of love.
 
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Stryder06

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It's a little bit more extreme than that, we look in that mirror and we can't not sin, it boils up within us, the futility shames us, our sin mocks us in that though we want to clean ourselves up it grips us and produces death.

It's not more complicated. The problem is that some people see that they're dirty and seek to get clean, others see that they're dirty and only seek partial cleansing, while others simply ignore their filthy state altogether. I desperately want to be clean now that the mirror has shown me how dirty I am. It has shown me the standard, and that standard has been made attainable by Christ.

Were I trying to obtain in my own power, I'd be without hope. It's not my power that I trust in though. It's the power of Christ working in me to clean me up by removing sin from me.

If it is Christ that is seen in the mirror by us now then what do we have to change? We are declared just and rightly so by the washing of the blood of the Lamb. We look to imitate Christ though and not by our strength alone, just as God knits our being together in the womb he transforms us into newness of life.

You can't reflect Christ if you're in rebellion against His law.
 
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Mazock

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and ends it with a smiley face no less.

if you scroll back a bit uh, well, it was coming even when you denied it was so.

funny how that works isn't it?

legalist's seldom see the cloak of hypocrisy that ensnares their mind.

s

Yer so smart....

Baiting me into admitting sin is sin...

I shore caint match wits with ya.
 
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Elder 111

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What question?

When it comes to the Sabbath there are only two camps of understandings:

A. Those who think they are temporarily sinless when being obedient to the Sabbath Law (whatever form of same they follow, which is an entirely separate set of questions)

or

B. Those who do not consider themselves temporarily sinless even while being obedient/legal to the Sabbath Law.

Which camp are you in?

If you have another alternative you are welcome to put it out.

The guy just ahead of you claimed he was temporarily sinless, but then 'truthfully' admitted he sinned 'every day' so he must not be 'too legal' on the Sabbath by his own admissions sinning on that day even while supposedly being legal on the Sabbath.

s
The question is, where in the bible does God say He change the Sabbath?
Gen 2 Says And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Ex 20 says But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Again, where in scripture can you show us that God remove the holiness, the blessing and sanctification He placed on the Sabbath?
Here is some thing to contemplate. Isa 58


13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
 
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bugkiller

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The question is, where in the bible does God say He change the Sabbath?
Gen 2 Says And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Ex 20 says But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Again, where in scripture can you show us that God remove the holiness, the blessing and sanctification He placed on the Sabbath?
Here is some thing to contemplate. Isa 58


13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
God makes a promise to do so through His prophet Hosea. So I see the fight as to if or when this happened. I would choose the Cross with a very clear statement in ths destruction of the Temple. But of course that is rejected. Oh well.

bugkiller
 
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squint

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The question is, where in the bible does God say He change the Sabbath?

Uh, if you've been reading?

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

hmm? What happened to the LAW in that CHANGE?

hmm? Maybe John 1:14? Ya think?

?
 
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bugkiller

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How are we advocating keeping the Sabbath? What's different in what we're saying and in what Christ did? And a life of service isn't a "Sabbath" life. It's a life of love.
We have been trying to get you to confess the truth about how the sabbath is to be observed according to Exodus 20:8-11. The problem is a true confession has not been shown to line up.

bugkiller
 
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squint

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Yer so smart....

Baiting me into admitting sin is sin...

I shore caint match wits with ya.

I appreciate that fact that you were a big enough man to admit you sinned on the Sabbath. While being 'legally obedient,' of course.

But we certainly don't want to be looking at any facts in these discussions do we?

Baited into telling the truth. That's a classic. Going to have to remember that one.

s
 
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squint

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It's not more complicated. The problem is that some people see that they're dirty and seek to get clean, others see that they're dirty and only seek partial cleansing, while others simply ignore their filthy state altogether. I desperately want to be clean now that the mirror has shown me how dirty I am. It has shown me the standard, and that standard has been made attainable by Christ.

Were I trying to obtain in my own power, I'd be without hope. It's not my power that I trust in though. It's the power of Christ working in me to clean me up by removing sin from me.

You can't reflect Christ if you're in rebellion against His law.

People are not any less the sinner by observing the Sabbath.

What R U thinking?

?

s
 
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bugkiller

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It's not more complicated. The problem is that some people see that they're dirty and seek to get clean, others see that they're dirty and only seek partial cleansing, while others simply ignore their filthy state altogether. I desperately want to be clean now that the mirror has shown me how dirty I am. It has shown me the standard, and that standard has been made attainable by Christ.

Were I trying to obtain in my own power, I'd be without hope. It's not my power that I trust in though. It's the power of Christ working in me to clean me up by removing sin from me.



You can't reflect Christ if you're in rebellion against His law.
The last statement is very key to the discussion. The problem is what is His (Jesus') law (commandments)? The Scripture plainly shows the commandments of Jesus are not the 10 Cs.

bugkiller
 
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Gxg (G²)

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What new testament scriptures point out that believers need not keep Gods sabbath day?
My own thoughts on the matter is that Sabbath is beautiful - but no one, if being honest. comes close to keeping it EXACTLY as others did in the OT

For more clarity,

sabbath%20congregation.jpg


I have enjoyed fellowshipping/living life with my Messianic Jewish family for years now - and seeing the many varieties that others have on Saturday with Shabbat.

And yet I've often seen it where others tend to condemn folks for times they are unable to make service/synagouge.

This perplexed me whenever such things were said in the name of "You need to Observe the Sabbath!!" - for although Messianic services (i.e. Torah Readings, Prayers/Liturgy, Fellowship, etc.) are wonderful, it was interesting to consider the ways that Sabbath itself did not seem to mandate at any point for others to meet on Saturday for a Corporate gathering - and for those who seemed to condemn others for not making it and somehow "failing to keep Sabbath", it seemed that going strictly by what the Mosaic Code says would leave a lot of people sorely lacking.

When looking at the Sabbath within the Mosaic Torah, I see some thing pretty clear things:


  • No work done at all (Ex. 20: 10; Lev. 23: 3; Jer. 17:21-22)
      • Exodus 20:10
        but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
        Exodus 20:9-11 Exodus 20
      • Leviticus 23:2-4/ Leviticus 23 “‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the Lord
      • Jeremiah 17:21-23/ Jeremiah 17 This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. 22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers. 23 Yet they did not listen or pay attention; they were stiff-necked and would not listen or respond to discipline. 24 But if you are careful to obey me, declares the Lord, and bring no load through the gates of this city on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy by not doing any work on it, 25 then kings who sit on David’s throne will come through the gates of this city with their officials. They and their officials will come riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by the men of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, and this city will be inhabited forever. 26 People will come from the towns of Judah and the villages around Jerusalem, from the territory of Benjamin and the western foothills, from the hill country and the Negev, bringing burnt offerings and sacrifices, grain offerings, incense and thank offerings to the house of the Lord. 27 But if you do not obey me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortresses.’”
  • No kindling of a fire (Ex. 35:3):
      • Exodus 31:13-15/Exodus 31: Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
  • No traveling (Ex. 16:29)
    • Exodus 16:28: “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a Sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”27 Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28 Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long will you[a] refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
  • No marketing (Neh. 10:31; 13:15,19).
      • Nehemiah 10:32 “When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day. Every seventh year we will forgo working the land and will cancel all debts
      • Nehemiah 13: "Remember me for this, O my God, and do not blot out what I have so faithfully done for the house of my God and its services.15In those days I saw men in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. 16 Men from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. 17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? 18 Didn’t your forefathers do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity upon us and upon this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”19 When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day.20 Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. 21 But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will lay hands on you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. 22 Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.
  • Ensuring that one have "... a holy assembly with double the daily offering along with the other offerings. ..meaning, in other words, that you are to give twice as much on the Sabbath (Num. 28:9):
      • Numbers 28:9 “‘On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah[c] of fine flour mixed with oil. 10 This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.
More things could be said besides that..but it was interesting to me to see how complicated Sabbath was - and how it doesn't really seem (if there's honesty) that anyone really does it as prescribed.



Many Messianic Jews I've fellowshiped with would do things like have celebration gatherings at the end of the day or House warming parties for people after they had just moved in - and if/when going by a strict interpretation of the Sabbath Law, one could not do that. There'd be no allowance of things like fellowship cookouts or barbecues...and you'd not be able to go with friends to a restaurant or get meat that's been flame broiled, nor could you can't cook eggs/ hash browns in the morning due to the rule of not kindling a fire for cooking. I've been amazed that some have even interpreted the OT law as saying one could not drive a car because that'd technically be choosing to "kindle a fire" in the combustion chamber of your engine.

The issue of travel was something that really stood out to me - for as many times as I've heard others be condemned for not making it to either synagouge or service on Saturday, the strict/literal intepretation of the Law would seem to required that believers choose to STAY HOME and not go outside at all. I'm aware that Jews added to this law, allowing only a half mile of travel on the Sabbath which we see observed in the Brit Chadashah . But at the most literal, the Law says to "stay at home."..if I understand it correctly. That'd mean no travelling to one's local fellowship if one sought to keep this part of the law, as you could not travel to your local ecclesia/gathering unless it was less than one-quarter mile away from home.


Hospital emergencies may be a differing matter since Yeshua healed on the Sabbath (and was accussed of not being faithful in keeping it - as seen in John 5 and Luke 13 - and he also got food in Matthew 12 /Luke 6 in the fields when gleaning to eat.

But for other things, it'd seem to be out of the window - even as basic like walking down in the Park with friends/family. And a lot of activities - as it concerns the part in the Mosaic that says "stay home" would not be allowed. Whether that be playing basketball with family/friends as a way to relax...or choosing to go swimming/travel to a body of water (should one live by a beach - like the Messianic Fellowships in Hawaii - or living by a pool).

Even basics like getting gas to go to Shabbat service - as you could not "trade" money for gasoline per what it says about the merchants/trading - and in the event your local ecclesia had a bookstore you'd enjoy that had Jewish resources to review....or that there was a bookstore nearby you wanted to enjoy on your day off, you'd not be allowed to buy a CD, teaching series on that morning's message or a book at the store. This would also extend into things like shopping - as I know many Messianic Jews who enjoy doing fellowship activities like going out to resturants to connect with the family....or going to stores to look at enjoyable things they could buy for one another, be it a toy for the child..or roses for the wife from the Husband and a Card for the husband to encourage hm... or food at a festival/Fair that's available on the Weekends - or the movies ...getting some candy and other similar things.

On the law of giving twice as much each week, it didn't seem that many people I've witnessed really did that. We enjoyed learning about Jewish culture/outreach and studying God's law - but I have yet to see people go to Shabbat and give twice as much each week. Even with work - many of the activities that one groups says are relaxing for them and that they don't consider work (i.e. mowing the lawn, decorating the house, exercise, etc.), others would say are a matter of "hard work" that should not be done - and so there does not seem to be anything conclusive on how others define work.


To me, it seems Sabbath laws were so sharp because the work that others did on those days was truly LABOR intensive work rather than things that were more recreational.
 
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