Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

Gxg (G²)

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I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought . :confused:
Like Paul, John the Baptist, Jesus, and all the other apostles preached the gospel, calling on all people to repent (see Matt.3:2; 4:17; 11:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; 13:3, 5; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 11:18; 20:21; 26:20; Rom. 2:4: 2 Pet. 3:9). Several times in the book of Revelation, John is amazed that unregenerate people don’t repent while suffering God’s judgments (see Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9, 11) - and Jesus pronounced woe upon all the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida because they didn’t repent, obviously indicating He believed they had the capacity to repent (see Matt. 11:21). Moreover, He also declared that the wicked people of Tyre and Sidon, who didn’t repent, would have repented if they had seen miracles like the people of Chorazin and Bethsaida had seen!

In both cases, Jesus believed that those who didn’t repent had the capacity to repent and should have repented

Yeshua expected everyone of His generation to repent, because He stated that the men of Nineveh, who repented at Jonah’s preaching, would rightfully condemn His generation for not repenting.

Again, if you're only going to focus on the scriputures with Paul saying others were granted repentance and yet willfully skip over all of the others where Paul also said "God has commanded men everywhere to repent"/placed it upon them, one's proof-texting and not dealing fully with the Word.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2

Acts 3:19

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Acts 3

Acts 8:22

Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Acts 8

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17

Acts 20:21
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
Acts 20:20-22 / Acts 20

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26

Romans 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Romans 2

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
2 Corinthians 7:9-11/ 2 Corinthians 7


I think your analogy with the drive-by shooting would be more accurate if seeing it from the perspective of one who had something like unforgiveness in his heart - and remembering that how we're treated is based on how we treat others.

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1″Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


Luke 6:37
Do Not Judge
37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”



I’ve always been under the impression that the way I treat others determines the way I’ll often be treated in return and, to a degree, how even the Lord responds to me. As a Christian, I can’t earn my salvation but through Christ, and I have the Lord’s Mercy/Forgiveness available so that there’ll never be one sin in my life where Christ’s Blood cannot cleanse.

Still, when Jesus said this, He wasn’t simply talking to a crowd of unbelievers alone; he was talking to believers and unbelievers alike. There doesn’t seem to be anything in the surrounding context that seems to indicate this is solely for unbelievers or that it applies only to when before you placed your faith in Christ…….


Regardless of what side of the fence you’re on, here’s my take:
Matthew 6:12:
The Lord’s Prayer
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.


Matthew 6:14-16
14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


Mark 11:25
25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”[a]



There seems to be something of a law of forgiveness that Christ taught throughout the Gospels, and a strong warning that Jesus gives: If I refuse to forgive others, God will also refuse to forgive us. The reason why is because choosing not to forgive others means that “we are denying our common ground as sinners in need of God’s forgiveness”….

If I’m asking/believing for God to forgive my sin and simply believing that forgivenes is automatic apart from what I do, but never ask myself “Have I forgiven the people who wronged me?, something is off….

Does that mean that God’s forgiveness of sin is the direct result of our forgiving others? Not necessarily…
James 2:12-13
“12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!”


God does not forgive us because we forgive others, but soley because of His Great Mercy. To do otherwise would limit God’s sovereign grace to anything less than a amazing gift we could only humbly accept with gratitude/joy….something you could buy and pay back God for, but have to live with the fear that you’d always not have enough to keep it (Ephesians 2:1-10)

Still, if we withhold forgiveness from others after having recieved it ourselves, we show that we don’t or appreciate God’s Mercy toward us….(Ephesians 4:31-32)….and we set ourselves “outside and above Christ’s law of love.”

As we come understand the mercy of God, we’ll desire to be like Him, and pass on the forgiveness we’ve recieved from Him to others….just as Christ was willing to forgive even those who crucified Him (Luke 23:34)

To do otherwise would be to mock the Charachter of God…and God has still made clear in His Word that He’ll not allow this:
Matthew 18:21-35
The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[f]



23″Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[g] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26″The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28″But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[h] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29″His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
30″But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.



32″Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.


35″This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought . :confused:
2 Timothy 2:11-13
11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
IF WE DISOWN HIM,
HE WILL ALSO DISOWN US;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.


The quote was probably an early Christian hymn or confession that described how God was faithful to his children and although we may suffer great hardships here, God promises that someday we will live eternally with him…..believers will live in Christ’s kingdom and will share in the adminstration of that kingdom, and this truth is what comforted Paul as he went through suffering and death

It seems that the purpose behind his statement was to call for courage and endurance, even martyrdom, in the service of the Lord….and that even when believers had the opportunity to turn away from Him they should never give into doing so seeing that we have a wonderful future with him…..kinda like what Jesus made clear to when he challenged people to strive to walk on His path and never turn from doing so
Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13″Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Luke 13:22-30
The Narrow Door
22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24″Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26″Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27″But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28″There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last



Obviously, we can’t say save ourselves–there’s no way we can work our ways into God’s favor….the only effort possible for us to put up “to enter the narrow door” is earnestly desire to know Christ and living in faith/gratitude for all He’s done…..Our self reliance is futile, and all we can do is throw ourselves on God’s mercy and Grace.

And Jesus is faithful….He will stay by our side even when we’ve endured so much that we have no faith left….we may be faithless at times, but Jesus is faithful to His promise to be with us “to the very end of the age” (Matthew 28:20)


Nonetheless, Although it is true that Christ remains faithful to His promises and will never disown himself when our faith in Him fails, it seems that here in II Timothy 2:11-13 the statement refers to His faithfulness in carrying out the warning that He will disown us in the presence of the Father “if we [willfully and knowledgeably] deny Him” in the midst of peril or scorn.

If we disown Christ (ex. In hoping that no one will think we’re Christians, deciding not to speak up for what’s right, being silent about our relationship with God, blending into society, accepting our culture’s non Christian values, etc)…..how can be wrong to expect that Jesus will not disown us in return?……

Acknowledgement of Christ on Earth results in acknowledgement by Him in Heaven, but there is no reason to suppose that the reverse isn’t true.
Luke 12:4-10
4″I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

8″I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

For more on the issue,
John 3:16-18
16″For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Romans 6:19-2319 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.23For the wages of sin is death, but THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE IN[a] CHRIST JESUS OUR LORS.

Ephesians 1:3-14
Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen,[c] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession–to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:1-7
Ephesians 2
Made Alive in Christ
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.



When someone gives a gift, the reason why it’s often so special is because it’s given apart from any effort/merit on the recievers’s part and without the reciever’s prior knowledge (like a surpirse………

A gift cannot be purchased by the recipient., for it would’nt be a gift if they could earn it or asked “How much do I owe you” instead of feeling gratitude and simply recieving it by saying “Thanks You”………

But a gift also would’nt be as meaningful if the reciever didn’t have the opportunity to turn it down when offered, for to do otherwise would be like imposing what I worked hard for and demanding/expecting that the reciever’s going to have to recieve it anyway…..

The same could be said of the AMAZING Gift of Our salvation, I guess…..
How often do Christians feel obligated to earn eternal life, “pay God back” and try to work their way to Him, “even after they have been given the gift of salvation”, when our attitudes should be one of simple gratitude/praise and joy since our salvation and even our faith are “gifts”…..Eternal Life is a Gift from God

And yet how many others Christians fail to fully grasp the High Cost/Value of the gift of God’s salvation because they don’t realize that it would’nt be much of a gift to treasure if you could’nt ever turn it down…..What would the cost/meaning be to the Lord being “grieved”/concerned for His gfts if His gifts couldn’t be rejected still? Wouldn’t the value of a indisposable gift decrease?

To even phrase a question “Can a believer lose His or
Her Salvation” would be seem to be, at best, off to start since you could only “lose” something within your power or that you already owned/possessed (like losing your car keys or something else)…..

And we know that the opportunity to be saved came about only through the umerited grace of God rather than by “our effort, ability, intelligent choice, or any act of service on our part”, and prior to my knowledge of Him……it’s not at all something of my own doing but everything of His Mercy (Titus 3:5)

To say that a Christian has the opportunity to “Renounce”, however, would seem to make more sense with all the Scriptures both sides give for their stance…..it would even seem to renconcile the question of “How eternal is eternal life if you could lose it”

If you have the choice to renounce my salvation, does that mean that eternal life is a lie? Not necessirialy…..

The Eternal Aspect still stays in effect regarding my choices since I NEVER BEGAN/FINISHED THE PRODUCT, AND THEREFORE LACK THE CONTEXT OF EVER LOSING IT ON ACCIDENT OR SOMETHING (Thank God, cause we’d all be hopeless)…To Him be the Credit!

I can exclude myself from ever experiencing it, however, when I DELIBERATELY DISREGARD BELIEVING CHRIST (note: In context, Jesus’s regards to unbelievers were those who reject/ignore him completely, not those with momentary doubts…John 3:18-19)…..

If I fail to believe in Christ (i.e. more than intellectual aggreement/confession or adherance to a set of teachings, and moreso a life submitted in TOTAL TRUST/RELIANCE IN HIM AS IN CHARGE OF OUR PRESENT PLANS AND ETERNAL DESTINY), then to our credit be Eternal Damnation…..

Without HIS choice, we would have no choice to make (John 15:16), and personally, when I realize that Jesus made the first choice—to love and die for us and invite us to live with Him forever despite how we deserve otherwise (Romans 5:1-11)—-and that I get to make the next choice of either accepting or following Him…..that does nothing more but encourage me more to stand in awe of Him and Do as He asks…….That’s the Way His Mercy Was intended (Psalm 130:1-4)
 
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squint

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I disagree but no biggie. I would say thought of sinning is sin. When I am tempted I think about it (and hopefully about how I'm not falling for the trick) when I entertain the sin the temptation was about, in my mind, I might have well done it as in my heart I already did.

Quite beside the point. The observation being made is twofold.

One, temptation is of the tempter. When that happens inside or in 'thought' is it just you therein?

Uh, no. There is another party involved with sin and that commingling starts internally, through the thought realm.

Secondly, if you aknowledge the fact of the above, you might also see that it is not you as a believer being discussed. There is a 'factual evil sinning entity' that is also involved.

The concept we have about covering up sin is silly.
You are welcome to excuse the tempter any way you are directed to do so. I have no such impositions to excuse that operator or it's/his thoughts therein. They are sin and as such are utterly condemned.

We can hide it from men
Indeed. That is the practice of most. They hide it. They deny it happens and when they do admit it they certainly don't connect the factual dot to the tempter within and therefore they excuse it.

A tidy little package isn't it?
but as men are not where the real forgiveness comes from, that matters little in the big picture. Excused? Please explain your meaning about that? Are you speaking of excusing without repentance?
I don't think you are grasping the matters quite frankly...

s
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought . :confused:
Paul consistently taught that salvation begins/ends with God...and we can do nothing to be saved on our own merit, as it's a gift---and Paul in Thessalonians was encouraging them by reminding them that they were chosen by God. However, as there're many other passages where Paul also made clear many things were in their hands, the text cannot be overqualifed above all others as if man has no part in anything concerning God's actions. It does not have to be an "either-or" gig....and if it wasn't the case, why is there need for Paul asking for prayer if all is destined to occur, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 /1 Thessalonians 3:9-11 /1 Thessalonians 1:1-3 /2 Thessalonians 3:1-3 / 2 Thessalonians 3 ?
Thessalonians 1:11
With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ
2 Thessalonians 1
Just as the Lord told his servants many times when they chose to respond to Him as He commanded. King Josiah comes immediately to mind on the issue..
2 Kings 22:19
Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD.
2 Kings 22:18-20 (in Context) 2 Kings 22
Proverbs 3:34
He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.
Proverbs 3:33-35 (in Context) Proverbs 3 (
James 4:5-7 /James 4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely?[a] 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."[b] 7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.



Hebrews 12:15-17 Hebrews 12

Warning Against Refusing God

14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.​
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought . :confused:
A lot of people would say that the Christian in bed with a prostitute ended up being saved because of how he was elected to salvation.

However, By itself, election doesn't save, nor does it negate the responsibility of man to repent and trust Christ as Savior and Lord (Ezekiel 18:23-32; 33:11; John 3:18-19,36; 5:40; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Revelation 22:17), as all men, including elect, are lost until such time as they individually exercise faith in Christ as their Savior (John 3:14-18; 3:36; Acts 16:30-31). And at least 150 times the Bible makes faith the single condition of salvation, thereby stressing the fact that all the benefits of the completed work of Christ are withheld until men believe the gospel. It's no more different than the the way the blood of the Passover lamb became efficacious only when applied to the doorposts (Exodus 12:1-14). For the work of Christ becomes efficacious (capable of producing the desired effect) only when applied through faith.

Rather than being the product of salvation, Faith is the actual means of receiving it. For no appeal is ever addressed to men that they should believe because they have already been saved. Instead, it is that they should first believe and consequently receive eternal life. Thus, there's a double truth concerning salvation in Christ: the one lost in sin must come, but he will not come unless drawn by the Father (John 6:35-44). AND to come to Christ is the same as to believe on Him. For unless men come, they will neither believe to be saved or make it.... and yet they will not have the desire or ability to come unless they are drawn by God to do so.

The sovereignty of God in election as well as the responsibility of man in believing are truths bothy taught in Scripture and must each be allowed to stand without seeking to disarm the other. One must teach man's faith in Christ does not add anything to the full/complete redemption procured by Christ. For faith does not save, as it is Christ who saves alone. Faith is a means through which the grace of God comes to the heart (Ephesians 2:8-9) and the salvation received is not improved upon noraltered in any way by the reception of it by faith. Also, scripture declares that faith is not a work (Romans 4:5)--with being required to exercise faith....and with faith consisting not in doing something, but in believing/receiving something. It is no more than activity of reception

Christ says that he who looks (a present participle indicating an ongoing action, not just a glance, but a continuing steady gaze) and believes (another present participle, e.g.: continues believing) has eternal life. Those not looking continually or believing cannot place claim on Christ for eternal life. Those who do not keep on looking/believing in Jesus cannot claim to be possessing eternal life nor can they expect to be raised up on the last day. For the believing community is certain to be raised up because they comprise those fulfilling the conditionof looking to/believing in the Son. Note that Jesus does go between the believing community in John 6:37, John 6:39 alongside its individual members in John 6:35 and John 6:37 plus John 6:40. In both cases the believers security is conditional upon an ongoing and vibrant trust in Jesus. For more confirmation, one need to look no further than the conditional language Jesus uses throughout his Bread of Life speech..
[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]Stop working for the food that is perishing, but be working for the food that is remaining unto eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has set His seal on this One. Therefore, they said to Him, [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]What shall we do that we shall be working the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]This is the work of God, that you be believing in Him whom that One sent. (John 6:27-29)"

Matthew 23:36-38
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.
Luke 13
Luke 13:22-24

The Narrow Door

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Luke 19:40-42
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."
Matthew 11:21
"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.


Luke 10
Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.' 10But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11'Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' 12I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town. 13"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.
Jesus made clear that it was upon them to answer the call of being sincere seekers rather than one of fatalism.

On election, people look at the texts concerning how God elected others to salvation and assume that once he says “I wish for Evan to be saved”, that’s it. However, there’re other passages coming to mind that make that assumption a bit suspect. Namely 2 Timothy 2:10 where Paul explicitly made clear, “Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.”

For anyone reading the entire chapter—which was occuring in a time of trial/dangerous teaching, one must ask the obvious question of why was Paul enduring for the sake of another and making clear that doing so would be for the purposes of others obtaining salvation in Christ Jesus. If salvation was already attained for the elect, why does Paul make clear there’s still a future need for it?

Of course, on being “Elect”, it's not something that’s static and with one usage/connotation when considering other passages concerning that deal with how those that’re elect are also those who place their faith actively in Christ as He warns/commands & seek to please Him rather than simply a matter of ones whom God chose without any consideration on their part, Matthew 10:21-23 / Matthew 22:1-14 Matthew 24:12-14 / Luke 13:22-30 Acts 3:11-20, Acts 26:17-19, 2 Peter 1:1-18, 2 Peter 1:9-11 , 2 Peter 3:1-17, etc). It’s the entire issue of saying “Jesus is The Savior…but that does not mean that He’s Your Personal Lord/Savior, as in you looking to Him/showing yourself as one that’s Elect”.

Also, when it comes to the issue of God choosing/responding—as that’s an essential aspect of the entire debate—there's the dynamic of what is said in many passages within the scriptures that seeemd to indicate “cause and effect” with the Lord and his people. The example of Jonah and the Lord showing grace/mercy to a people whom He originally promised destruction and made clear that HE LOVED THEM just as much as His elect people Israel ( Jonah 4:1-11 ). The entire issue was one of the reasons why the Jews got into so much trouble with the Lord when they began to pride themselves in being “elect”–as if God was only concerned about them–rather than realizing that He had a heart for others as well and wanted all to be saved….and the Word already makes clear He takes no delight in the deaths of the Wicked ( Ezekiel 33:10-12/ Ezekiel 33/1 Timothy 2:3-5 , etc )

The imagery in the Word is stunningly strong—especially in regards to how the Lord was “grieved”. One example would be with others such as King Saul, whom the Lord had changed his heart, 1 Samuel 10:8-10 1 Samuel 10 and Saul did right. But later, Saul’s rejection of the Lord made the Lord grieved in I Samuel 15. It’d be illogical to assume that the Lord never cared about Saul and that it must somehow be a failure/waste on God’s part…….
 
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I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought . :confused:
This may bless you, as the viewpoint of Orthodoxy is excellent when explaining what it means to be saved. For we've been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Salvation is a journey and continual development...

 
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Is it really necessary to make several cut and paste responses to a single question?
Info is info (and it was written out - only Bible scriptures being cut). Scripture is scripture and it's no more an issue than one making several snippet responses or comments in rapid fire to a single question without leaving it be (or going on tangents - which is is serious waste of dialoge space ) - and as no one is going to do focusing on posters via personal commentary when that happens, there's little reason for you or others to do so here. Simple as that.

Dialouge on what the OP is about is the focus - whether that be people dialouging extensively with one another on the question of the OP or other choosing to respond solely (be it in short response or long) to the OP question...regardless of how many times one feels is necessary to address the very delicate/complicated issue of Salvation. There have already been several in-depth/detailed responses back-to-back throughout the thread (here in example) and some..though taking some time...I read. Others I didn't. And no one is stopped from doing so if they wish. Not everyone is going to remotely think all of what you say is what they want to read on the issue - and the same goes in reverse - and thus, one chooses to read what they wish/keep on rolling. I'm already good in relationship/freindship with the OP poster so no issue.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It is not for us to say, of course. There is ALWAYS the chance of God's mercy, which is, of course, infinite. I myself have committed sin, but my heart wasn't in it. I hated it, and myself even while I was doing something, and wished I wasn't doing it, and then sought to diffuse the situation by stopping it, and praying for mercy. If I hadn't gotten around to the stopping it, and praying for mercy yet, God would still know that I was sorrowful.

When we die, we are removed from constraints of time, and we then exist outside time. What may be the split microsecond of our death to an observer on earth might be like a century when we're not quite dead, and not quite alive. Had this man with the prostitute lived "towards" perfection to the best of his ability, recognizing when he did wrong, and seeking forgiveness right away with a sincerely contrite heart? Is this is pattern in life? Or is he a routinely callous scofflaw and materialist whose modus operendi is habitual sin without remorse and repentence? How does he look to God? What has he done for others? Does he love others as himself most times? Does he usually feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, clothe the naked? etc.? Or in his daily life, outside of this one fall of sin, is he also selfish, angry, resentful, and petty?

There's not nearly enough info given in the scenario of a single sin, for us humans to make a judgement.

It is believed by Christians who have an orthodox understanding of the faith, that persons who die outside of friendship with God, even if they stood up at some meeting when they were 15 and proclaimed Jesus, and accepted his baptism, that he is not destined automatically for eternal life with God.

He must also WANT it
He must commit actions which correspond with his love of God.
When he sins, (and we all do, unless we are liars), then he recognizes it immediately....doesn't try to rationalize it with legalism, and then seeks forgiveness with a truly repentant and contrite heart.

The Lord will not lose one single lamb that was given him. That is all who HEAR is voice, and allow Him to transform their lives. Who honestly desire to do God's will.

But those who have accepted the Lord in a moment of passion, then never followed up on it. Never pray, never give alms, never perform acts of mercy, who are not forgiving of those who wrong them, aren't truly sorry, even when they do ask for forgiveness because they fear hell, and not because they love God, MAY have a problem, if we listen accurately to Jesus.

It's a tough question. Fortunately, we don't have to judge anyone else. It's not our job or our place. We are called only to love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our mind, with all our being, to love our neighbor as ourselves, and to spread the gospel (good news) to others.

I would say, that overall the question is oversimplified, and misrepresented by a couple of different factions of Christians, and, of course, by virtually all non-Christians, who don't seem to get the whole thing really.

You can lose it, but only if you don't really have it anyway, and you are just one of those who will show up and say Lord Lord, only to hear our blessed Jesus say that he never knew you.

As Mary told the servants at the wedding in Cana....."DO whatever He tells you"

Well said/well spoken and thanks for sharing :)
 
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1 Cor. 3

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, [d]precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


If he has saving faith (a foundation in Jesus Christ) then he is saved. If he has nominal faith (a mere assent with no change of life) then he was not saved to begin with.

One of the most powerful scriptures to consider on the issue and thank you for taking the time to note it. It is all about foundation
 
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DiligentlySeekingGod

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1 Cor. 3

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, [d]precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

If he has saving faith (a foundation in Jesus Christ) then he is saved. If he has nominal faith (a mere assent with no change of life) then he was not saved to begin with.

Amen!
 
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If you are saved according to real faith you have in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, whose righteousness was for us, dying for us and rising again, it is then the grace of Yahweh God, and you are sealed with his Spirit, you never will be removed, it is his work, things are written that we may know we who have come to him with that real faith have eternal life. There are some passages that some believe to mean they can lose that, but generally those are about keeping or losing blessings. We have assurances written in the Bible for us.

Passages in Hebrews 10 that some take to mean salvation may possibly be lost to those who truly have it are in the epistle written to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected. The passages are about some who receive knowledge of truth, that is, they hear and understand the gospel, it is not speaking necessarily of those who respond in faith to Christ as their Lord and savior and loving God in return. Those who come to that point of understanding and still trust in observance of Jewish Law for their salvation would insult the gospel of Christ. But the believers with true faith are assured.

This writing, just as other new testament epistles as well, was written to believers in churches, where in their assembly it was the only place they would hear it, and just as we know it is pretty much always some who are not true believers creep in. This was warning all to make sure of their belief, and to believers the if of what can happen with a rejection off God"s grace, which is what happens among those who are not true believers. This understanding is correct with believing the verses already shown for our assurance. But if there is deliberate sin to worry about, this applies to condemning others.

1 John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
5: 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Ephesians 2: 4 God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Originally Posted by Giver
I am not sure of what you are trying to point out.

My witness is that Jesus taught me that a Christian does not sin. Also God has protected me from Satan/sin for many years.

Jesus has told me to give a word to people who say they are Christians.

I am doing what Jesus told me to do, and am not judging anyone. Jesus will judge.

People know if they sin or not. People who are led by the Holy Spirit/Jesus will never be led into sin. Those led by the Holy Spirit will be given the grace and guidance to never sin again.

But there are people who have the Holy Spirit and walk in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit but still do not live the whole Word of God. Jesus spoke about such people.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ told us to not judge others, and so other believers should not be judged in regards to their remaining saved. But in speaking of rejecting deliberate sin, this is what it should come to in the growth in godly living when truly coming to Christ as he has called, if there has been deliberate sin since then, we can judge for ourselves. We should come to living out what we are told according to all the word of Yahweh God. Can you really say there was never, ever any deliberate sin since you first came to Christ? This would be unique. Yet even Peter was taken back when having denied Christ he wept and repented from it.
 
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Giver

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If you are saved according to real faith you have in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, whose righteousness was for us, dying for us and rising again, it is then the grace of Yahweh God, and you are sealed with his Spirit, you never will be removed, it is his work, things are written that we may know we who have come to him with that real faith have eternal life. There are some passages that some believe to mean they can lose that, but generally those are about keeping or losing blessings. We have assurances written in the Bible for us.

Passages in Hebrews 10 that some take to mean salvation may possibly be lost to those who truly have it are in the epistle written to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected. The passages are about some who receive knowledge of truth, that is, they hear and understand the gospel, it is not speaking necessarily of those who respond in faith to Christ as their Lord and savior and loving God in return. Those who come to that point of understanding and still trust in observance of Jewish Law for their salvation would insult the gospel of Christ. But the believers with true faith are assured.

This writing, just as other new testament epistles as well, was written to believers in churches, where in their assembly it was the only place they would hear it, and just as we know it is pretty much always some who are not true believers creep in. This was warning all to make sure of their belief, and to believers the if of what can happen with a rejection off God"s grace, which is what happens among those who are not true believers. This understanding is correct with believing the verses already shown for our assurance. But if there is deliberate sin to worry about, this applies to condemning others.

1 John 1: 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
5: 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Ephesians 2: 4 God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
"For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Originally Posted by Giver
I am not sure of what you are trying to point out.

My witness is that Jesus taught me that a Christian does not sin. Also God has protected me from Satan/sin for many years.

Jesus has told me to give a word to people who say they are Christians.

I am doing what Jesus told me to do, and am not judging anyone. Jesus will judge.

People know if they sin or not. People who are led by the Holy Spirit/Jesus will never be led into sin. Those led by the Holy Spirit will be given the grace and guidance to never sin again.

But there are people who have the Holy Spirit and walk in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit but still do not live the whole Word of God. Jesus spoke about such people.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ told us to not judge others, and so other believers should not be judged in regards to their remaining saved. But in speaking of rejecting deliberate sin, this is what it should come to in the growth in godly living when truly coming to Christ as he has called, if there has been deliberate sin since then, we can judge for ourselves. We should come to living out what we are told according to all the word of Yahweh God. Can you really say there was never, ever any deliberate sin since you first came to Christ? This would be unique. Yet even Peter was taken back when having denied Christ he wept and repented from it.
Your using Peter’s denial of Jesus to show that everyone sin, gives away your total lack of understanding of what Jesus came here to do.

Paul in Romans seven explained just how impossible it was for man to not sin, before Jesus came.

Until Jesus came, and defeated Satan/sin there was very little possibility one could resist Satan/sin.

Jesus came defeated Satan/sin, and then gave us his Holy Spirit.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

When man is baptized in Jesus name, he or she can then receive the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will teach, and give one the grace/power to live the whole Word of God.

Then when one shows God that he or she loves him by living his Word God makes a home in the person.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

Now after a person becomes a temple of God, he or she will have God protecting his home. Satan/sin can’t enter God’s home.

When Peter denied Jesus three times, he had not yet had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Your using Peter’s denial of Jesus to show that everyone sin, gives away your total lack of understanding of what Jesus came here to do.

Paul in Romans seven explained just how impossible it was for man to not sin, before Jesus came.

Until Jesus came, and defeated Satan/sin there was very little possibility one could resist Satan/sin.

Jesus came defeated Satan/sin, and then gave us his Holy Spirit.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

When man is baptized in Jesus name, he or she can then receive the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will teach, and give one the grace/power to live the whole Word of God.

Then when one shows God that he or she loves him by living his Word God makes a home in the person.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

Now after a person becomes a temple of God, he or she will have God protecting his home. Satan/sin can’t enter God’s home.

When Peter denied Jesus three times, he had not yet had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Giver, do you intend to respond to my questions concerning whether or not you really love your neighbor as yourself?
 
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Giver

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Giver, do you intend to respond to my questions concerning whether or not you really love your neighbor as yourself?
I believe you received a long post where it was explained to you how God has taught me to love, and how it is God that will be the judge if I love my neighbor as my self.

I treat my neighbor as Jesus directs me to treat my neighbor.

 
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Giver, do you intend to respond to my questions concerning whether or not you really love your neighbor as yourself?

I believe his stance is that he loves his saved/believing neighbors so much that if they commit a single sin they may go to hell. Yeah, that love.
 
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