The Prince that shall come?

Gideon · Jan 26, 2013

Just found this.

Here is a quote from the early historian, Eusebius. (AD 263 - 339) He identifies the 'other prince' as Titus and 'his people' as the Roman army.

"And the people of the governor that cometh will destroy the city and the holy place." Meaning that the city and the Holy Place are not only to be ruined by the leader to come, whom I have identified in my interpretation, but also by his people. And you would not be far wrong in saying, too, that the Roman general and his army are meant by the words before us, where I think the camps of the Roman rulers are meant, who governed the nation from that time, and who destroyed the city of Jerusalem itself, and its ancient venerable Temple."
(Eusebius of Caesarea BOOK VIII CHAPTER 2)

mog144 · Jan 26, 2013

Interplanner said:
Good obs, Gideon. It is called Hebrew parallelism. More in Psalms and Isaiah and minor prophets but it can show up anywhere and any size. for ex., Gen 1 and then 2. Overlapping, different emphases.

--Inter

Purely heresy and nobody has proven this as truth. It's only thought to be a parallel by some ignorant souls that endeavor to trodden Adam and His Creator. Those who proclaim this garbage are just as Eve is and have believed the lie.

The reason for believing this lie that you tell is for lack of understanding. But, you're entitled to believe lies. Other people should know the truth so to avoid falling into your snares.

Douggg · Jan 26, 2013

Gideon said:
It has been widely taught by modern preachers and popular books that the coming prince spoken about in Daniel 9:26 refers to Antichrist. The story goes how the clock stopped after the sixty-ninth week and the last week - the seventieth - was projected two thousand years into the future after which it resumes when Antichrist is revealed. In the middle of this seven-year period he will enter a rebuilt Jewish temple and cause animal sacrifice to stop, an act of desecration which (they say) is the abomination mentioned in verse 27.

This theory is wrong. Apart from the obvious difficulty of jamming a two-thousand year wedge into Gods timeline, it confuses the prophecys real intent. The passage is all about atonement, not second coming. The temple is the rejected not the desecrated. The overspreading abomination was the continuance of sacrifice after it was meant to stop. The central person is Christ, not Antichrist, and the prince who was to come referred to Titus who came forty years after the weeks were over.

The traditional view of this passage, held by the Church until last century, was the correct one all along. Christ is the one who confirms the covenant! Christ is the one who causes sacrifice to cease! Christ is the one that makes the temple obsolete! Is this what happened? It surely did. In the midst of the seventieth week in the very midst God caused the great curtain of the temple to be torn from top to bottom indicating that sacrifice (as far as He was concerned) had come to an end. The atonement was complete! Shortly afterward the other prince, Titus the Roman, came and destroyed the temple altogether.

Please examine the text below comparing the alternative notes and notice how naturally the traditional explanation flows with events as they unfolded. For example, the destruction is attributed to the people of the prince, not to the prince himself. Such a distinction would be superfluous if it were not for the fact that Titus had instructed his troops to preserve the temple but they disobeyed orders and torched it.

Modern Futurist Interpretation
After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Antichrist, from revived roman empire) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

He (future Antichrist) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his treaty) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple desecrated) And on the wing of abominations (situated in a wing of the temple) shall be one who makes desolate, (Antichrists abomination) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Antichrist)
Traditional Christian Interpretation
After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)

There is a passage in Deuteronomy 31:10-11 that explains what the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is. It is the commemorative reading of Moses's instructions to go in an possess the land to that second generation of the Children of Israel, and all that lead up to it - so that future generations would never forget.

The commemoration requirement (law) was given by Moses to be done on a 7 year cycle. That's why it says in Daniel 9:26-27 "for" 7 years. i.e. for the 7 year cycle.

The other part of the requirement is that the commemoration, which is a confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant, be done from the place of God's choosing which is to the Jews is the temple mount.

It will not be until after Gog/Magog, the war spawned over who has rights to the land, that the muslims will no longer be present to prevent the commemorative reading to take place.

In Ezekiel 39, that 7 years of burning the weapons of Gog's destroyed army for fuel, is the 7 years confirmation cycle period - the ceremony overseen by the Antichrist future perceived messiah of the Jews.

In Ezekiel 39:17-20, following the 7 years, is the Armageddon feast by the birds and beasts in Revelation 19.

Doug

Interplanner · Jan 26, 2013

why break up the coherence of the prophecy when there are a ton of things in the final seven years as is--either in Christ's ministry and the revolt or in the total length of the revolt past the destruction. Why does "literal" 490 years mean "insert 2034 here"? the commemoration (if it occurred during the revolt) then becomes the bane of Israel, making them try to follow the law more vigilantly and violently, which was the problem to begin with.

--Inter

Interplanner · Jan 26, 2013

re confirming terms of a covenant:
why would this be done in the future when Hebrews shouts that a new covenant is in effect; in fact, the person (Christ) was the covenant. He was the requirement by God for justification and fellowhip and he was the fulfillment of the obligations. "It is finished!"

--Inter

JLB777 · Jan 26, 2013

Interplanner said:
re confirming terms of a covenant:
why would this be done in the future when Hebrews shouts that a new covenant is in effect; in fact, the person (Christ) was the covenant. He was the requirement by God for justification and fellowhip and he was the fulfillment of the obligations. "It is finished!"

--Inter

Yes Jesus is our Covenant.

The new Covenant. The eternal Covenant.

However Daniel 9:27 refers to confirming a covenant for 7 years.

This is not the new covenant.

JLB

Douggg · Jan 26, 2013

Interplanner said:
re confirming terms of a covenant:
why would this be done in the future when Hebrews shouts that a new covenant is in effect; in fact, the person (Christ) was the covenant. He was the requirement by God for justification and fellowhip and he was the fulfillment of the obligations. "It is finished!"

--Inter

But Israel, Daniel's people, and Jerusalem, who broke God's covenant with them time and time again, have not accepted Jesus as their messiah yet. So the 490 years are incomplete.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jerusalem and the Jews are not going to see Jesus again until they say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". Then the 490 years will be nearly complete.

Doug

Interplanner · Jan 26, 2013

Doug, what you just did above is known as not reading the Bible Christocentrically, as it should be. It's his property. The list of 7 is by Christ and fulfilled by him. Don't perpetuate the mistakes of Judaism's literalism if you can help it.

--Inter

Interplanner · Jan 26, 2013

re confirming a covenant in Dan 9
if we are talking about an eternal covenant, how do we know it can't last forever? And if it is the same step or procedure that ends sacrifice and offering, guess what? It is one of many expressions of the Gospel in the OT.

--Inter

JLB777 · Jan 26, 2013

Interplanner said:
Doug, what you just did above is known as not reading the Bible Christocentrically, as it should be. It's his property. The list of 7 is by Christ and fulfilled by him. Don't perpetuate the mistakes of Judaism's literalism if you can help it.

--Inter

The events of the 70 weeks have not all been fulfilled!

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

One of which is -

...and to bring in everlasting righteousness,

Everlasting righteousness will have arrived on planet earth when Jesus returns and removes all wicked and unrighteous ones.

Everlasting clearly speaks of of those who have been resurrected.

Jesus teaches us -

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear , let him hear. Matthew 13:40-43Until the wicked are removed everlasting righteousness is something to look forward to.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

An example of this "shining forth as the sun" is given to us in Matthew 17 as we see Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.

Everlasting righteousness is what we all long for, even the earth groans for, as well as all of creation.

JLB

Douggg · Jan 26, 2013

Interplanner said:
Doug, what you just did above is known as not reading the Bible Christocentrically, as it should be. It's his property. The list of 7 is by Christ and fulfilled by him. Don't perpetuate the mistakes of Judaism's literalism if you can help it.

--Inter

I wrote that the 490 years will be up when the Jews and Jerusalem have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and promised Great King of Israel.

How is that not being "Christocentric"? Jesus is the Christ, right?

Doug

The Prince that shall come?

Who is/was the Prince that shall come?

The Future Antichrist

Jesus the Prince of Peace

Titus the Roman Prince

Someone else

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