Defense chief Panetta to clear women for combat roles

Chajara

iEdit
Jan 9, 2005
3,269
370
36
Milwaukee
Visit site
✟12,941.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
since men are hard-wired to be protective of women

Most woman cannot compartmentalize as well a men can, that is part of the psycology difference between the sexes. To be fair, in general woman multi-task better while me are more focused single minded.

I don't suppose either of you have any peer-reviewed scientific evidence for either of these statements, eh? Because they sound like those sorts of facts that "everyone knows" that don't have any actual bearing in reality at all.
 
Upvote 0

RedDead1981

Prayer is beautiful when it's sincere
Jul 4, 2010
2,806
168
✟14,181.00
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I don't know that they're hardwired, but I believe the statement that most men feel compelled to protect women. Heck, I remember playing paintball as a kid and feeling some need to protect a female player on my team, even though she was better than me. Sometimes there's something to the "everyone knows" bits.
 
Upvote 0

Chajara

iEdit
Jan 9, 2005
3,269
370
36
Milwaukee
Visit site
✟12,941.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
I don't know that they're hardwired, but I believe the statement that most men feel compelled to protect women. Heck, I remember playing paintball as a kid and feeling some need to protect a female player on my team, even though she was better than me. Sometimes there's something to the "everyone knows" bits.

Okay, but how much of that is hardwiring and how much of it is due to being socialized from birth into "boy" and "girl" categories and being taught what all that entails, up to and including that boys are stronger and girls are weaker?
 
Upvote 0
C

conamer

Guest
I don't suppose either of you have any peer-reviewed scientific evidence for either of these statements, eh? Because they sound like those sorts of facts that "everyone knows" that don't have any actual bearing in reality at all.
It's based on real life experience. I don't need a study from "experts" to show me the truth. Tell me, do you claim that men and woman think the same way, respond to stimuli, and communicate that same way? If so you are delusional.
 
Upvote 0

TerranceL

Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?
Jul 3, 2009
18,940
4,661
✟105,808.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I don't know that they're hardwired, but I believe the statement that most men feel compelled to protect women. Heck, I remember playing paintball as a kid and feeling some need to protect a female player on my team, even though she was better than me. Sometimes there's something to the "everyone knows" bits.

My problem with the argument is that to a person every guy I know who has been in a warzone considers the man he served with to be his brother and would give his life for his brother. It's not like when a male soldier dies the other soldiers say, "pffft, he's just a dude". There are serious mental ramification of losing a fellow solider.

I really just don't see it being that much different because the soldier is a chick.

Now if because of different physical requirements the men are required to do more than their share of the labor then yes that's a problem.

But I don't think that a guy who would be willing to die for his brothers in arms would be any more willing to die is one of his brothers was a sister.
 
Upvote 0

dgiharris

Old Crusty Vet
Jan 9, 2013
5,439
5,222
✟131,531.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
As for the "Women are weak" attitude in this thread.

I remember in basic training we were on a 3 mile rifle run with web belt, canteen, poncho, boots, etc.

We had to stay in formation and keep up with the drill sergeant or else we'd be punished later with extra PT.

Well, we finish the run and the the drill sergeant says, "Okay, that was a great warm out, now we're going to do another 3 miles."

As we get to the 4th mile, some without the group are starting to weaken so those of us who were stronger started taking the gear of those that were weaker. At about 4.5 miles I'm carrying two web belts and two rifles as are several other guys in the flight and we are on the cusp of death. Meanwhile the 5 girls in our flight are holding their own. We are all dying and then on the 5th mile we hit a breaking point, another guy is on the verge of dropping out but all of us stronger types are already doubled up, everyone else is just barely hanging on. And then something happened that I will NEVER forget.

One of the girls in our group, 5'3" 110 lbs reaches over and grabs his rifle. So now, she's running with two rifles!!! and another girl 5'5 120 lbs reaches over and grabs his web belt and gear.

We all finish the run a mile or so later, total of 6 miles during the summer heat at altitude with 20 lbs worth of gear

From that point on, the girls had the full respect of all us guys. And throughout basic training, they were required to carry the same gear and meet the same physical demands as us guys. They ran the same obstacle courses with us and they always finished ahead of some of the guys. True, they were never "first" but they certainly were never last. And two girls were always in the first 3rd of the group whenever we did a physical challenge.

When people think "Women in combat" they always picture the typical woman and that is not accurate anymore than thinking of an MMA fighter as the typical guy...

The women that want to be in combat are not typical women and could physically out perform the average guy...
 
Upvote 0

MachZer0

Caught Between Barack and a Hard Place
Mar 9, 2005
61,058
2,302
✟86,609.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As for the "Women are weak" attitude in this thread.

I remember in basic training we were on a 3 mile rifle run with web belt, canteen, poncho, boots, etc.

We had to stay in formation and keep up with the drill sergeant or else we'd be punished later with extra PT.

Well, we finish the run and the the drill sergeant says, "Okay, that was a great warm out, now we're going to do another 3 miles."

As we get to the 4th mile, some without the group are starting to weaken so those of us who were stronger started taking the gear of those that were weaker. At about 4.5 miles I'm carrying two web belts and two rifles as are several other guys in the flight and we are on the cusp of death. Meanwhile the 5 girls in our flight are holding their own. We are all dying and then on the 5th mile we hit a breaking point, another guy is on the verge of dropping out but all of us stronger types are already doubled up, everyone else is just barely hanging on. And then something happened that I will NEVER forget.

One of the girls in our group, 5'3" 110 lbs reaches over and grabs his rifle. So now, she's running with two rifles!!! and another girl 5'5 120 lbs reaches over and grabs his web belt and gear.

We all finish the run a mile or so later, total of 6 miles during the summer heat at altitude with 20 lbs worth of gear

From that point on, the girls had the full respect of all us guys. And throughout basic training, they were required to carry the same gear and meet the same physical demands as us guys. They ran the same obstacle courses with us and they always finished ahead of some of the guys. True, they were never "first" but they certainly were never last. And two girls were always in the first 3rd of the group whenever we did a physical challenge.

When people think "Women in combat" they always picture the typical woman and that is not accurate anymore than thinking of an MMA fighter as the typical guy...

The women that want to be in combat are not typical women and could physically out perform the average guy...
Sounds like they've already lowered the standards. Wonder if that has anything to do with the women being integrated
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
NBC News
US News

By Jim Miklaszewski and Courtney Kube, NBC News
~Full Article~ Includes Video

130123-femail-soldiers-330p.380;380;7;70;0.jpg

Female soldiers from the US 1st Cavalry on patrol in Baghdad's al-Jihad quarter in this Mar. 21, 2004, file photograph.

I think it's a bit of a struggle for many in light of the difficulty they have with the concept of female warriors and how other ages in history were very much familar with them - and there are indeed many:

    • St Joan of Arc
    • Queen Vishpala
    • "Qin Liangyu – Commander-in-Chief of Sichuan Province
    • Gao Guiying, a female Chinese revolutionary, rebellion-leader and army-commander who led her army as a general in China - known as the General of the Peasant Rebels
    • Queen Sammuramat (reigned c. 811-792 BCE)
    • Queen Zenobia (reigned c. 240-274 CE)
    • Hua Mulan (c. 4th-5th century CE)
    • Tomoe Gozen (c. 1157-1247)
THE remains of two Amazon warriors serving with the Roman army in Britain were discovered back in 2004 in a cemetery that has astonished archaeologists. Women soldiers were previously unknown in the Roman army in Britain and the find at Brougham in Cumbria will force a reappraisal of their role in 3rd-century society. And with the ancient Mongol empire, it was often the case that you had women known to be very harsh warriors (more here and here/ here/here).

Personally, in light of the history of female leaders and warriors in history (more here and here), I wonder why the ban against women in combat has been in place for so long. Women were allowed in the front lines of combat before historically - even leading others into combat and winning. So there should be no issue today - unless, of course, going back to the issue of what has happened when in a society that says men are inherently inferior to men and men should be on a higher level.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dgiharris

Old Crusty Vet
Jan 9, 2013
5,439
5,222
✟131,531.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Sounds like they've already lowered the standards. Wonder if that has anything to do with the women being integrated

There are two possibilities.

#1 they lowered the standards
#2 the women in my group were exceptional.

Funny how you choose to believe #1 and discount #2...

One of the girls in my group was a swimmer that qualified for the Olympic trials
Another girl in my flight was a nationally ranked cross country runner (the 5'3" girl)
 
Upvote 0
S

Savior2006

Guest
Upvote 0

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Site Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,128
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If Annika Sorensen couldn't make the cut on Saturday on the PGA tour, why you think women should be in combat roles like men?

Nutty logic. How many Marines could beat her at golf?
 
Upvote 0

Sistrin

We are such stuff as dreams are made on...
Site Supporter
Jun 9, 2012
6,488
3,399
Location Location Location
✟197,980.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As for the "Women are weak" attitude in this thread.

I remember in basic training we were on a 3 mile rifle run with web belt, canteen, poncho, boots, etc.....

That is a nice folksy story, but one which in context serves no purpose in addressing this issue. No one here said that "all" women would fail or that "all" women are unfit for combat, because there will be exceptions. The point is, again, in order to implement this as the left will want the overall standards will have to be lowered. Do that, and you weaken the entire US military. But again, it is more important for liberals to use the military as a social experiment than for what it is actually for.

Gxg (G²);62257415 said:
I think it's a bit of a struggle for many in light of the difficulty they have with the concept of female warriors....

If you are going to post a long litany of verbiage in support of a point, you could at least try and be on point. The issue is women serving in front line combat units in the modern day United States military, not the history of the Mongol hordes. Joan of Arc does not serve as justification for Suzie from Memphis being allowed to lead infantry troops in combat if Suzie can't maintain the same physical standards as the men she is trying to lead.

Gxg (G²);62257415 said:
So there should be no issue today - unless, of course, going back to the issue of what has happened when in a society that says men are inherently inferior to men and men should be on a higher level.

What, exactly?


Gxg (G²);62257490 said:
If women wish to go to war, there should be respect for their decisions in light of what has already happened in history.

I can respect their desire and sense of duty. But let liberals push any agenda unchallanged and it will invariably turn out to be detriment to the system.

Do you always try to pigeonhole liberals into one group?

Liberals are a group, a group dominated by group think.

I could just as easily say that "to the right it is far more important to use the military as a platform for religious indoctrination".

You could say that but you would be wrong. Atheist hysteria.
 
Upvote 0

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Site Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,128
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The issue is women serving in front line combat units in the modern day United States military, not the history of the Mongol hordes. Joan of Arc does not serve as justification for Suzie from Memphis being allowed to lead infantry troops in combat if Suzie can't maintain the same physical standards as the men she is trying to lead.

What, exactly?

I can respect their desire and sense of duty. But let liberals push any agenda unchallanged and it will invariably turn out to be detriment to the system.
Liberals are a group, a group dominated by group think.
Did they learn that from the Right Wing, because they are proficient at it, LOL.

Modern warfare is always evolving as the use of infantry is less focused on the human wave. The body armor is lighter and is already being adjusted for smaller soldiers. Weaponry is changing and sheer brute strength is not as necessary as in the past.

Women may be much better suited to some roles where a smaller person is either better suited or where size doesn't matter. That's why they've done just fine as pilots and drivers.

I don't think anyone is suggesting women will have combat roles in as great a number as men. The idea is to not rule them out soley because they are women.

So, the histrionic opposition is a bit much.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Site Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,128
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Prove it. Liberals are as diverse a group as any. They're not a hive mind all thinking the same way.

Rush and Ann said so. It must, therefore be true.
 
Upvote 0

Bethesda

Newbie
Sep 11, 2012
831
18
✟8,601.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour
Sounds like they've already lowered the standards. Wonder if that has anything to do with the women being integrated

Thats the same surely as say coming up with examples of indiscipline and saying wonder it that has anything to do with integrating the military racially
 
Upvote 0

Sistrin

We are such stuff as dreams are made on...
Site Supporter
Jun 9, 2012
6,488
3,399
Location Location Location
✟197,980.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Did they learn that from the Right Wing, because they are proficient at it, LOL.

Thanks, Mr. Bravo. "I know you are but what am I?"

Modern warfare is always evolving as the use of infantry is less focused on the human wave.

Combined Arms tactics have been in development and practice since the later days of World War One. It has been a long time since instructors at West Point have promoted a "human wave" attack. However the essence of offensive operations has been and still is to put as many guys as necessary into the attack to achieve the objective.

The body armor is lighter and is already being adjusted for smaller soldiers.

Size isn't the issue, the ability to endure extended combat operations is.

Weaponry is changing and sheer brute strength is not as necessary as in the past.

But endurance is. Why do you think such a high percentage of men wash out of the various training schools? The standards are there for a reason, so that those who achieve them can be depended on to operate at that level of proficiency.

Women may be much better suited to some roles where a smaller person is either better suited or where size doesn't matter. That's why they've done just fine as pilots and drivers.

Lowering the standards to allow for women to occupy a particular military position has been tried before. In the wake of Tailhook the Navy was pressured to pass female pilots along and into the F-14 program. The two most notable were Kara Hultgreen and Carey Lohrenz, who between them racked up a total of eleven "downs", or mistakes which would have served to wash out any pilot candidate. But they were passed through training, much at the insistance of particular congressional members.

As a result Kara Hultgreen is dead, having flown her F-14 into the ocean during a landing attempt. Carey Lohrenz was removed from flight status, being described as "dangerous", "unsafe," "undisciplined," and "unpredictable." According to her commanding officer she "scared everyone but herself."

Women in combat roles isn't the issue. Lowering the standards to achieve this social outcome is the issue. And it has begun already:

Gen. Dempsey: If Women Can’t Meet Military Standard, Pentagon Will Ask ‘Does It Really Have to Be That High?’

Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Thursday that with women now eligible to fill combat roles in the military, commanders must justify why any woman might be excluded – and, if women can’t meet any unit’s standard, the Pentagon will ask: “Does it really have to be that high?”

Source: Gen. Dempsey: If Women Can’t Meet Military Standard, Pentagon Will Ask ‘Does It Really Have to Be That High?’ | CNS News

I don't think anyone is suggesting women will have combat roles in as great a number as men. The idea is to not rule them out soley because they are women.

The idea is they not be passed through simply because they are women.

Prove it. Liberals are as diverse a group as any. They're not a hive mind all thinking the same way.

I said the liberal group is dominated by groupthink. And they are. You explain why any proclamation made by Obama is instantly revered by liberals at large, or why abortion is such a sacrosanct issue with the left, or why reduction of the US military is the only government reduction liberals support.

But the overall question is addressed here:

CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION, (Issue dated November 12, 2004), Liberal Groupthink Is Anti-Intellectual, By MARK BAUERLEIN

Source: CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION

Rush and Ann said so. It must, therefore be true.

And groupthink on display again.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
S

Savior2006

Guest
I said the liberal group is dominated by groupthink.

And you are wrong.

And they are.
I see you have circular logic down.

You explain why any proclamation made by Obama is instantly revered by liberals at large,
Source? I don't think you are being entirely honest. ;)

or why abortion is such a sacrosanct issue with the left,
Because it isn't like conservatives have a massive consensus...

"Since 2001, the majority of Republicans have consistently taken the pro-life position, but by a gradually increasing margin over "pro-choice." That gap expanded further this year, with the percentage of Republicans identifying as pro-life increasing to 72% from 68% last May, and those identifying as pro-choice dropping to 22% from 28%. Still, Republicans' current views are similar to those found in 2009."

"Pro-Choice" Americans at Record-Low 41%

Oh darn.

But let me guess. It isn't group think when conservatives all agree on the same thing for the same reasons (religion)?


or why reduction of the US military is the only government reduction liberals support.
We also want government to keep out of the wombs of women, in case you forgot.

And groupthink on display again.
By you maybe.
Keep it up. I enjoy it. :wave:
 
Upvote 0