Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable (2)

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 22, 2013

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

Yahudim · Jan 22, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable"

That's why I was saving post 1000 for you! Good Job.

Now you have a thread with the same personality disorder as Sybil! ^_^

Dissociative identity disorder!

I bet the Rich man was going through an identity crisis of his own, but was it real? Or was it Memorex?

Anna Scott · Jan 22, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable"

Thanks for the heads up.

I'll just let it go. People ignored my posts on the other thread.

Still, hope all goes well in Part 2.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

Yahudim · Jan 23, 2013

Anna Scott said:
Thanks for the heads up.

I'll just let it go. People ignored my posts on the other thread.

Still, hope all goes well in Part 2.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

Sorry Anna,

I kept reading your post and I couldn't make the connection. In simple terms (cause I need all the help I can get), Please tell me the connection that you were trying to make. I just couldn't make the leap!

Yahudim · Jan 23, 2013

Hey, LLoJ! Perhaps it would help to re-post the OP...

squint · Jan 23, 2013

In the interests of floating LLoJ's pet subject awhile longer (because I like him) I'd posit the following exercise in the line of scripturally sound reasoning:

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

In the above example we'd more than likely have to take that statement as a parable. Why? Because the RED is likened to the BLUE. That's part of what makes a parable/allegory/similie is the likening process.

If this is considered a fair application what else might be derived from this exercise in comparison?

Quite a bit of information can be derived just from this simple comparison:

The fact of the camel or the eye of the needle being real or images are quite irrelevant. I hear from some people that the 'eye of the needle' is some supposed 'needlegate' in Jerusalem or whatever. As a matter of comparison it might be rather irrelevant. If Jesus meant needleGATE He should have said so.

Secondly if we are trying to extract this matter on a comparative basis it is impossible to get a camel through the eye of a needle ALIVE but it is possible with some efforts. So some turn eye of a needle into something else in order to make it work for their positions. Entirely not required. If we take the camel and literally try to get same through the eye of a needle it would take a very large camel food processor to turn it into a liquid and an even smaller needle to go through the eye of a needle attached to a very large bag of liquid camel and THEN we might be able to squeeze the camel through the eye of a needle.

NEEDLEss to say that would be easier than all of that for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So we might presume that rather than just a real camel disrobing his seat, passenger and camel bags in order to shimmy through a neddleGATE which presumably is VERY EASY as it would have to be done A LOT that Jesus was actually stating something very difficult to do.

Follow along please.

We know that Jesus also taught that the Kingdom of Heaven is where?

Within you.

Is it fair to say that the rich man might also be in close proximity?
The Kingdom of Heaven is not a visible external matter here on earth. Yet Jesus taught us that it is WITHIN.

It is likely that the rich man is not talking about those who have a larger amount of worldly goods than the average joe, and that the entire matter is in fact PARABOLIC in nature.

Just blended camel for thought.

s

Yahudim · Jan 24, 2013

squint said:
In the interests of floating LLoJ's pet subject awhile longer (because I like him) I'd posit the following exercise in the line of scripturally sound reasoning:

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

In the above example we'd more than likely have to take that statement as a parable. Why? Because the RED is likened to the BLUE. That's part of what makes a parable/allegory/similie is the likening process.

If this is considered a fair application what else might be derived from this exercise in comparison?

Quite a bit of information can be derived just from this simple comparison:

The fact of the camel or the eye of the needle being real or images are quite irrelevant. I hear from some people that the 'eye of the needle' is some supposed 'needlegate' in Jerusalem or whatever. As a matter of comparison it might be rather irrelevant. If Jesus meant needleGATE He should have said so.

Secondly if we are trying to extract this matter on a comparative basis it is impossible to get a camel through the eye of a needle ALIVE but it is possible with some efforts. So some turn eye of a needle into something else in order to make it work for their positions. Entirely not required. If we take the camel and literally try to get same through the eye of a needle it would take a very large camel food processor to turn it into a liquid and an even smaller needle to go through the eye of a needle attached to a very large bag of liquid camel and THEN we might be able to squeeze the camel through the eye of a needle.

NEEDLEss to say that would be easier than all of that for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So we might presume that rather than just a real camel disrobing his seat, passenger and camel bags in order to shimmy through a neddleGATE which presumably is VERY EASY as it would have to be done A LOT that Jesus was actually stating something very difficult to do.

Follow along please.

We know that Jesus also taught that the Kingdom of Heaven is where?

Within you.

Is it fair to say that the rich man might also be in close proximity?
The Kingdom of Heaven is not a visible external matter here on earth. Yet Jesus taught us that it is WITHIN.

It is likely that the rich man is not talking about those who have a larger amount of worldly goods than the average joe, and that the entire matter is in fact PARABOLIC in nature.

Just blended camel for thought.

s

Soooo, let me see if I understand. The rich man wasn't really rich in his earthly life and your thoughts on the subject are really pureed camel? Can I agree with the latter and disagree with the former?

Just kidding.

The 'eye of a needle', whether hyperbole or an actual architectural artifact (a low arch designed to keep camels out of the city), both convey the same idea; that it is supremely difficult to pass that barrier for the subject mentioned and under the circumstances given. In this case the comparison has to do with worldly wealth.

It is generally understood that the wealthy have a different world-view than people that are forced by circumstance to rely on others. Therefore, the inference is that a wealthy, self-sufficient individual would have to rely on Y'shua's instruction and agenda rather than his own devices to enter the kingdom of heaven.

For someone used to being in control and being completely self-sufficient, this is a very difficult transition to make. To me this seems like a perfectly reasonable conclusion considering all the formerly well-heeled clients I have had to counsel after loosing their wealth. They usually do not like the idea of having to rely on anyone and often rebel by 'acting out'.

My advice? Try to interpret the literal meaning of scripture first, stay away from pureed camel and never eat day-old sushi.

squint · Jan 24, 2013

talmidim said:
Soooo, let me see if I understand. The rich man wasn't really rich in his earthly life

Not as we perceive wealth, no. The identity of the rich man as to a name is purposefully withheld.

The term 'riches' is quite a ripe mining field in the text that carries many applications as do the terms of what their richness entails. There are in short many types of riches, and not all of them on the outside of the cup and not all of them good on the inside of the cup.

It's not a matter of instantly saying, oh, that guy had money or land.

The matter in this parable also ties in with 'kings of the earth.'

All of these matters are quite nicely intertwined in the text. Quite fascinating actually.

and your thoughts on the subject are really pureed camel? Can I agree with the latter and disagree with the former? Just kidding.

I thought you might enjoy that.

I used it only to show the folly of purely literal understandings. Parables tend to run away from that angle quite quickly. That is not to say though that parables and allegories are not 'very real' matters. Just that they are not openly apparent on the surface.

The 'eye of a needle', whether hyperbole or an actual architectural artifact (a low arch designed to keep camels out of the city), both convey the same idea; that it is supremely difficult to pass that barrier for the subject mentioned and under the circumstances given. In this case the comparison has to do with worldly wealth.

I might not consider it a difficult task to disrobe a camel and put it through a pass that is meant for that to happen. There implies little difficulty there other than to keep enemies coming in at one at a time fashions. But it is not necessarily difficult. That's why I lean against that sight. The 'eye of a needle' does not auto-imply that direction.

It is generally understood that the wealthy have a different world-view than people that are forced by circumstance to rely on others. Therefore, the inference is that a wealthy, self-sufficient individual would have to rely on Y'shua's instruction and agenda rather than his own devices to enter the kingdom of heaven.

God is no respecter of persons. Certainly not based on volume of coinage 'or not' in their pockets. That sight is quite external, worldly and an intention to defer the meaning of the parable away from ourselves if we are not worldly wealthy. Jesus did not give His Parables with the intents of deferment to us, but for us to factually apply every Word. (See Luke 4:4)

If we really believed that entrance into heaven was as easy as emptying our checking accounts...we could...you know...buy our way in in reverse.

It's actually much more interesting and no, we will not be able to enter by emptying our pockets and disposing of our property.

For someone used to being in control and being completely self-sufficient, this is a very difficult transition to make. To me this seems like a perfectly reasonable conclusion considering all the formerly well-heeled clients I have had to counsel after loosing their wealth. They usually do not like the idea of having to rely on anyone and often rebel by 'acting out'.

Well, I certainly hear you there. I've been around the block in this arena myself and generally speaking I am not very fond of people with excess wealth, but that is quite beside the point of the parable.

My advice? Try to interpret the literal meaning of scripture first, stay away from pureed camel and never eat day-old sushi.

The reason I put it up IS because some of you guys are trying to pin this parable on JEWS and I uh, instantly rebel against any forms of anti-semitism by nature, even though I am not Jewish by bloodline.

The churches of christianity in general have been quite fond of blaming Jews for several centuries now. It is quite well time to move past those types of sights. And a lot of people that hold that slant don't even realize what they are doing or recognize it for what it really is.

So don't expect the 3 cheers from me on the anti-Jew slants.

s

Yahudim · Jan 24, 2013

squint said:
Not as we perceive wealth, no. The identity of the rich man as to a name is purposefully withheld.

The term 'riches' is quite a ripe mining field in the text that carries many applications as do the terms of what their richness entails. There are in short many types of riches, and not all of them on the outside of the cup and not all of them good on the inside of the cup.

It's not a matter of instantly saying, oh, that guy had money or land.

The matter in this parable also ties in with 'kings of the earth.'

All of these matters are quite nicely intertwined in the text. Quite fascinating actually.

I thought you might enjoy that.

I used it only to show the folly of purely literal understandings. Parables tend to run away from that angle quite quickly. That is not to say though that parables and allegories are not 'very real' matters. Just that they are not openly apparent on the surface.

I might not consider it a difficult task to disrobe a camel and put it through a pass that is meant for that to happen. There implies little difficulty there other than to keep enemies coming in at one at a time fashions. But it is not necessarily difficult. That's why I lean against that sight. The 'eye of a needle' does not auto-imply that direction.

God is no respecter of persons. Certainly not based on volume of coinage 'or not' in their pockets. That sight is quite external, worldly and an intention to defer the meaning of the parable away from ourselves if we are not worldly wealthy. Jesus did not give His Parables with the intents of deferment to us, but for us to factually apply every Word. (See Luke 4:4)

If we really believed that entrance into heaven was as easy as emptying our checking accounts...we could...you know...buy our way in in reverse.

It's actually much more interesting and no, we will not be able to enter by emptying our pockets and disposing of our property.

Well, I certainly hear you there. I've been around the block in this arena myself and generally speaking I am not very fond of people with excess wealth, but that is quite beside the point of the parable.

The reason I put it up IS because some of you guys are trying to pin this parable on JEWS and I uh, instantly rebel against any forms of anti-semitism by nature, even though I am not Jewish by bloodline.

The churches of christianity in general have been quite fond of blaming Jews for several centuries now. It is quite well time to move past those types of sights. And a lot of people that hold that slant don't even realize what they are doing or recognize it for what it really is.

So don't expect the 3 cheers from me on the anti-Jew slants.

s

I had a feeling that your and my humor might run along the same lines.

Nice to meet a kindred spirit!

Did I mention that my Rabbi was a Jewish carpenter? :bow:

squint · Jan 24, 2013

talmidim said:
I had a feeling that your and my humor might run along the same lines. Nice to meet a kindred spirit! Did I mention that my Rabbi was a Jewish carpenter?

heh heh. I know most 'Jews' [man I hate using that term] prefer literal only.

I go the opposite direction because that is what I see to see:

Psalm 78:
1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. 2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

There really is another world of understanding once that door has been opened in heart. In fact it is 'in heart' where one will find the 'real' rich man: In the Old Testament you will find this same one covered in JEWELS.

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

The Good News is that the JEWELS will be removed from the current owner after polishing and the NEW TEMPLE will be built upon them.

enjoy!

s

Anna Scott · Jan 24, 2013

squint said:
. . .I used it only to show the folly of purely literal understandings. Parables tend to run away from that angle quite quickly. That is not to say though that parables and allegories are not 'very real' matters. Just that they are not openly apparent on the surface.

squint,

Also, if one is literally engulfed in flames, including the tongue, could one literally speak? The obvious answer is no.

And how would that eternal burning work exactly? Would God continuously restore the nerve endings and physical nature of the body so the pain is continuous? Seriously?

Anna

squint · Jan 24, 2013

Anna Scott said:
squint,

Also, if one is literally engulfed in flames, including the tongue, could one literally speak? The obvious answer is no.

And how would that eternal burning work exactly? Would God continuously restore the nerve endings and physical nature of the body so the pain is continuous? Seriously?

Anna

Yeah, you are catching the drift.

There is no doubt Jesus taught in parable and allegory.

The difficulty is that to go down that trail you actually have to believe Him and He sets an interesting MARK to get over that most believers never do get over. It's offensive. Purposefully so. But..once it's quickened you can never look back.

remember Lots wife...

I noted the Key to unlock all parables in the start of this thread prior, but it's never well received. predictably so. that is in fact how I know it's right...

To understand 'all' parables one must accept that the key to understanding all parables applies to themselves personally. That KEY starts in Mark 4:15 and only those who are called can understand and accept it. No one else can no matter how hard they try.

Luke 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

enjoy!

s

Anna Scott · Jan 24, 2013

talmidim said:
. . . I kept reading your post and I couldn't make the connection. . . .

I was connecting what Scripture, as a whole, has to say about the fate of the lost with the "rich man and Lazarus" story.

Post 939 from last thread:

Thinking not only of my own eternal fate, but that of my son and other loved ones, as well as all mankind; it seems incomprehensible that a loving God would sentence one to an eternal fate so horrible.

Think about this. A person could die at age 10 or age 16, a "blink" in eternity; and yet be condemned to unimaginable and unending torment.

The idea that this could be true is so depressing. When you think of all the torture and atrocities committed by humans here on earth; none can possibly compare to burning in an eternal fire. Think about the worst conceivable pain---the worst atrocities ever committed multiplied by infinity. Who can bear such a thought?

How could the few elect be happy throughout eternity knowing the suffering going on in Hell? God would have to erase reality from the minds of the elect. Some Christians actually claim this will be the case; but what does that say about a God who would inflict such eternal atrocities that he would have to wipe out the knowledge of His actions from the elect few in order for them to be happy in Heaven. IOW, God would have to hide, from His own people, what He was really doing to the lost. He would have to hide His own atrocities throughout eternity.

If this eternal torment is true, then I truly wish I had never been born. Even if I am saved at the end of my journey on this earth, I could not bear the fate of others--incomprehensible eternal atrocities, worse than anything the most evil human has ever accomplished.

I do not believe the loving God I know in my heart would commit such atrocities for all eternity.
_________________________

Post 965 from the last thread:

. . .My post was not about what "I think" God should do in order to be fair.

My post is about the reality of eternal torment, and how that fits with the mercy of God. Is God's mercy greater than ours?

How could the few elect be happy throughout eternity knowing the suffering going on in Hell?

Why would a merciful God condemn the lost to eternal torture---an atrocity worse than anything committed by the most evil humans here on earth?

Also consider the following:

Was the consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve eternal torment? Of course, the answer is no. Death is the consequence.

The New Testament tells us the wages of sin is death and Christ conquered death.

The most famous passage of Scripture, John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Parish vs. eternal life.

If eternal torment is the price we pay for sin, then what did Jesus accomplish on the cross? Is he spending eternity in torment to take our place?

Acts 2 (ESV):
22 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

Romans 5:
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Romans 6:
4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Also consider Psalms:

Psalms 49:
10 When we look at the wise, they die;
fool and dolt perish together
and leave their wealth to others.
11 Their graves are their homes forever,
their dwelling places to all generations,
though they named lands their own.
12 Mortals cannot abide in their pomp;
they are like the animals that perish.

13 Such is the fate of the foolhardy,
the end of those who are pleased with their lot.Selah
14Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
straight to the grave they descend,
and their form shall waste away;
Sheol shall be their home.
15 But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol,
for he will receive me.Selah

_________________________

So how did we go from "graves as eternal resting places" to eternal torment?

How did we go from parish vs. eternal life to eternal torment vs. eternal life in Heaven?

If you believe in eternal torment; does such unimaginable suffering stir even a small spark of compassion?
____________________________

Anna

Yahudim · Jan 24, 2013

Anna, we were not created in sin. But death and torment are the consequences of sin. There is forgiveness. There is redemption. But there is no 'free ride'. His wrath is just.

Anna Scott · Jan 24, 2013

talmidim said:
Anna, we were not created in sin. But death and torment are the consequences of sin. There is forgiveness. There is redemption. But there is no 'free ride'. His wrath is just.

talmidim,

Where does Scripture say there is no forgiveness?

Where does Scripture say the wages of sin are "death and torment"? And if you are dead, how can you be in torment?

Was the consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve eternal torment? Of course, the answer is no. Death is the consequence.

The New Testament tells us the wages of sin is death and Christ conquered death.

The most famous passage of Scripture, John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Parish vs. eternal life.

If eternal torment is the price we pay for sin, then what did Jesus accomplish on the cross? Is he spending eternity in torment to take our place?

How could the few elect be happy throughout eternity knowing the suffering going on in Hell?

How did we go from "graves as eternal resting places" to eternal torment?

How did we go from parish vs. eternal life to eternal life in torment vs. eternal life in Heaven?

If you believe in eternal torment; does such unimaginable suffering stir even a small spark of compassion?

Anna

Yahudim · Jan 24, 2013

So, everyone has quit sinning? I don't think so.

It's helpful to understand that you are not a physical being having the occasional spiritual experience. You are a spiritual being that is living through a physical experience. Just because the physical part ends, doesn't mean that the experience ends.

As far as the torment goes, there are plenty of scripture that teach of judgment and eternal torment for the unrighteous dead.

seeingeyes · Jan 25, 2013

squint said:
To understand 'all' parables one must accept that the key to understanding all parables applies to themselves personally. That KEY starts in Mark 4:15 and only those who are called can understand and accept it. No one else can no matter how hard they try.

I sure learned this one the hard way. Ouch!

But worth it.

Anna Scott · Jan 26, 2013

squint said:
Yeah, you are catching the drift.

There is no doubt Jesus taught in parable and allegory.

The difficulty is that to go down that trail you actually have to believe Him and He sets an interesting MARK to get over that most believers never do get over. It's offensive. Purposefully so. But..once it's quickened you can never look back.

remember Lots wife...

I noted the Key to unlock all parables in the start of this thread prior, but it's never well received. predictably so. that is in fact how I know it's right...

To understand 'all' parables one must accept that the key to understanding all parables applies to themselves personally. That KEY starts in Mark 4:15 and only those who are called can understand and accept it. No one else can no matter how hard they try.

Luke 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

enjoy!

s

There are Christians who are quick to proclaim Hell as eternal torment to which most of humankind will go; but no one wants to face the reality of what eternal torment really is. Few want to answer the difficult questions about it or consider the way in which it contradicts Scripture as a whole.

My questions have been ignored on this thread, just as they were in Part 1.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 3, 2013

Anna Scott said:
squint,

Also, if one is literally engulfed in flames, including the tongue, could one literally speak? The obvious answer is no.

And how would that eternal burning work exactly? Would God continuously restore the nerve endings and physical nature of the body so the pain is continuous? Seriously?

Anna

Good point.........

.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 25, 2013

Originally Posted by squint
Yeah, you are catching the drift.

There is no doubt Jesus taught in parable and allegory.

The difficulty is that to go down that trail you actually have to believe Him and He sets an interesting MARK to get over that most believers never do get over. It's offensive. Purposefully so. But..once it's quickened you can never look back.

remember Lots wife...

I noted the Key to unlock all parables in the start of this thread prior, but it's never well received. predictably so. that is in fact how I know it's right...

To understand 'all' parables one must accept that the key to understanding all parables applies to themselves personally. That KEY starts in Mark 4:15 and only those who are called can understand and accept it. No one else can no matter how hard they try.

Luke 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

enjoy!

s

Anna Scott said:
There are Christians who are quick to proclaim Hell as eternal torment to which most of humankind will go; but no one wants to face the reality of what eternal torment really is.
Few want to answer the difficult questions about it or consider the way in which it contradicts Scripture as a whole.

My questions have been ignored on this thread, just as they were in Part 1.

Sorry to hear that.

I will search for your posts and respond to them if I can.

.

Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable (2)

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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