Is Jesus the Savior of the Whole World?

cygnusx1

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Yes he did come to save the whole wide world and his success rate for that was 100 percent. Every single person was saved, past tense. Now remember this happened at the cross so this is not the drama that plays out in the life of every human being today. That is something else entirely.

Oh you mean Millions saved without their permission after being forced to be saved then undo the work of Christ by their free will dying unsaved ?
 
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Epoisses

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Oh you mean Millions saved without their permission after being forced to be saved then undo the work of Christ by their free will dying unsaved ?

No more like billions saved without their permission at the cross. Now those saved billions exist 'in Christ' in heaven. When we hear the good news and accept Christ as our savior that same salvation is transferred from Christ via the Holy Spirt to the believer.

You're really making this much harder than it is.
 
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cygnusx1

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No more like billions saved without their permission at the cross. Now those saved billions exist 'in Christ' in heaven. When we hear the good news and accept Christ as our savior that same salvation is transferred from Christ via the Holy Spirt to the believer.

You're really making this much harder than it is.
That is because I keep seeing a contradiction in two salvations
 
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nobdysfool

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No more like billions saved without their permission at the cross. Now those saved billions exist 'in Christ' in heaven. When we hear the good news and accept Christ as our savior that same salvation is transferred from Christ via the Holy Spirt to the believer.

You're really making this much harder than it is.

Actually you are making this totally illogical. If all have been saved, why do we see the world in the condition it is in today? Logically, you are saying the Muslim jihadists are saved. Really? You are saying that Hitler, and Stalin, and Pol Pot, and Saddam Hussein, and tyrants all through history were saved by Jesus. Logically that means that you are a Universalist. And also logically that means that according to you, God has set the bar so low that no one can be excluded.

You need to rethink your theology, because it has some HUGE disconnects in it, and flies in the face of Scriptures that specifically exclude anyone who does not believe in Christ, and excludes all who reject the gospel,. or have never heard the gospel. That is an inconvenient little fact that you continually don't want to deal with. Not everyone is saved, or will be saved. That is cold hard fact. And it is 1000% Scriptural.
 
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Ignatius21

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Actually you are making this totally illogical.

I think he's making it "both/and" rather than "either/or." What he's describing, though I haven't heard it thoroughly, is actually close to (or sounds like) the ancient Orthodox position. So what I'm about to say will probably freak you out, but here goes anyway:

If all have been saved, why do we see the world in the condition it is in today? Logically, you are saying the Muslim jihadists are saved. Really? You are saying that Hitler, and Stalin, and Pol Pot, and Saddam Hussein, and tyrants all through history were saved by Jesus.

In an objective sense, yes. Because Jesus saved humanity. If redemption is only about saving individuals from going to hell, then this view makes no sense. If salvation is about the chasm between God and his creation being healed, and about mankind not just being saved from wrath, but about being elevated to partaking in God's own life, then it does make sense. All the evil people you've listed are human. Humany was and is saved. Thus they (in that objective sense) also were saved. But they had no faith, they rebelled against God, they committed atrocities and separated themselves from the salvation Christ worked for them.

Logically that means that you are a Universalist. And also logically that means that according to you, God has set the bar so low that no one can be excluded.

I will let him speak for himself, but I don't think this is what he's saying at all. He has said the opposite above. Not all are saved. Those who have faith and bear the fruit of the Spirit are those who are saved. Their faith links them to the salvation that has already been objectively accomplished for humanity. Faith is the difference between remaining in the "old man" with the wrecked creation that is passing away, and will be burned up when Christ returns, and participating (in this life) in the reality of the new creation that already exists but has not yet fully come.

You need to rethink your theology, because it has some HUGE disconnects in it, and flies in the face of Scriptures that specifically exclude anyone who does not believe in Christ, and excludes all who reject the gospel,. or have never heard the gospel. That is an inconvenient little fact that you continually don't want to deal with. Not everyone is saved, or will be saved. That is cold hard fact. And it is 1000% Scriptural.

Viewed from the perspective I described, anyway, it does not disconnect or contradict. Humanity is saved. Yet those who are not of faith are not ultimately saved. So yes, it is cold hard fact. And it is 10000000000000% scriptural. But the fact that not all individual humans will be united to God in eternity, but will suffer eternal torment while they gnash their teeth at their Redeemer, does not negate the fact that humanity itself is saved and redeemed and recreated in Christ. Such is the meaning of the Incarnation.
 
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cygnusx1

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I have no problem with humanity being saved , it's only when one stipulates 'humanity means everyone , every single person ' and then deny that everyone is saved that utter confusion reigns .

Christ came to save the world , humanity is saved , humanity is being saved and humanity will be saved , this is Biblical as much as Christ dying in order that the nation (Israel) shall not perish !
 
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Epoisses

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This confusion reigns because your understanding of Christ's sacrifice and Christ's atonement mean virtually the same thing.

When we look at the OT sanctuary service (which was a figure or type of things to come) the sacrifice occured outside of the temple and the atonement happened at the end of the year in the most holy.

What happens to someone's justification if it goes unclaimed? i.e. Hitler, Stalin etc. On the day of atonement when sin was cleansed and removed from the sanctuary, it was finally placed on the head of the scapegoat who is a figure of Satan who will meet his final end in the lake of fire.

The OT understanding of atonement was to purify or cleanse and the NT where it is used one time meant a reconcilliation or adjustment. They should have just stayed with reconcilliation and not used the word atonement.
 
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Epoisses

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The scapegoat is Christ , I know He is I have seen him .
Well, technically every part of the sanctuary did point to Christ in some way but if you recall their were two goats. One was killed and one was presented alive. The scapegoat is most definitely not Christ.

Are you able to keep up or is this too far over your head?
 
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gmm4j

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Well, technically every part of the sanctuary did point to Christ in some way but if you recall their were two goats. One was killed and one was presented alive. The scapegoat is most definitely not Christ.

Are you able to keep up or is this too far over your head?

Lev 16:21-22
He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites — all their sins — and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert.

2 Cor 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Heb 13:12
And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.


John 16:31-32
"But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
 
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Epoisses

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Lev 16:21-22
He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites — all their sins — and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert.

2 Cor 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Heb 13:12
And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.


John 16:31-32
"But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

I don't want to get into a sanctuary debate which is highly symbolic and subjective and off topic.

I merely brought it up to show the difference between sacrifice and atonement. These verses don't prove that Christ is the scapegoat.
 
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Michele B

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Yes he did come to save the whole wide world and his success rate for that was 100 percent. Every single person was saved, past tense. Now remember this happened at the cross so this is not the drama that plays out in the life of every human being today. That is something else entirely.

OK, hello. I have read all the way through this thread, and now I think I have a good enough picture of what is being said on both sides to weigh in on somewhere I see a fallacy. This statement that "every single person was saved...." is not what scripture seems to say (to me).

Yes, Jesus came to PROVIDE SALVATION for every person. BUT (!) not every person accepts this gift of His finished work on the cross. Therefore, NOT EVERY HUMAN BEING is saved. But the salvation is available to everyone.

That's where evangelism comes in! If every single person were saved by Christ's work on the cross, there would be no need to evangelize and preach the good news. It would just be. People would just be saved. it would just be a fact, but it isn't. That's why we are called "Dead in sins" until we become quickened and accept His finished work.

Why do some "hear it," and accept it and others do not? That is not a mystery I think we can know the answer to. My personal opinion is that it is God's Election of some and not others. Does that make God an unjust God? No, since ALL deserve hell, but God decides to offer salvation to some, it is HIS kingdom, after all! He can sentence us ALL to hell, or all to heaven. His choice. His plan.

Thanks for the thread, it's very interesting!

MB
 
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Epoisses

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OK, hello. I have read all the way through this thread, and now I think I have a good enough picture of what is being said on both sides to weigh in on somewhere I see a fallacy. This statement that "every single person was saved...." is not what scripture seems to say (to me).

Yes, Jesus came to PROVIDE SALVATION for every person. BUT (!) not every person accepts this gift of His finished work on the cross. Therefore, NOT EVERY HUMAN BEING is saved. But the salvation is available to everyone.

That's where evangelism comes in! If every single person were saved by Christ's work on the cross, there would be no need to evangelize and preach the good news. It would just be. People would just be saved. it would just be a fact, but it isn't. That's why we are called "Dead in sins" until we become quickened and accept His finished work.

Why do some "hear it," and accept it and others do not? That is not a mystery I think we can know the answer to. My personal opinion is that it is God's Election of some and not others. Does that make God an unjust God? No, since ALL deserve hell, but God decides to offer salvation to some, it is HIS kingdom, after all! He can sentence us ALL to hell, or all to heaven. His choice. His plan.

Thanks for the thread, it's very interesting!

MB

Yes the bible does say in Romans 5 that the free gift of justification is given to all men in Christ. The word justification means to declare someone righteous.

I used the word saved which is similiar but the free gift of justification would be accurate. The evangelism that you speak of where Jesus merely provides a provision of salvation for all men and then man must meet God the rest of the way is a subtle form of legalism.

Our salvation is a finished and complete work by Christ which we had no part in. And that is self-evident in the fact that none of us were alive 2000 years ago. We contributed nothing.

The gospel message is not believe in Jesus and you will be saved, it is believe in Jesus because you have already been saved. You were in fact saved 2000 years ago on the cross.
 
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drstevej

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The gospel message is not believe in Jesus and you will be saved, it is believe in Jesus because you have already been saved. You were in fact saved 2000 years ago on the cross.


This view + unlimited atonement = Universalism
 
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Epoisses

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This view + unlimited atonement = Universalism

You need to google universalism because they believe that all were saved at the cross and all will be in heaven.

I believe that all were saved at the cross but that gift can and will be refused by many to their eternal damnation.
 
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drstevej

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You need to google universalism because they believe that all were saved at the cross and all will be in heaven.

I believe that all were saved at the cross but that gift can and will be refused by many to their eternal damnation.

So there are saved people in Hell?
 
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drstevej

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Please summarize your view of hell and while you are at it, please answer my question. Then I'll answer yours. Just being orderly.

ETA: If your view is unorthodox, we can move this to UTD>
 
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