Who is a Jew? From our older son....

Yahudim

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How would a Messianic Beit Din differ from what's present in the 'traditional' Jewish community?

In the case of Ruth scripture doesn't teach if she went through the likes of a Beit Din. All we know from scripture is scripture still describes Ruth as a Moabite even though she was a widow to a Jewish husband and her mother in law was Jewish. And we know from scripture that in the Torah it says 'put away the gentile wives' in context it means because they corrupted the husbands by idol worship etc but scripture doesn't say to put away those that are believers in the God of Israel, just like the Peter/Cornelius incident.
I'm curious. Do you see your status as being adopted as a brother and co-heir with Messiah as strictly allegorical? The word adoption or it's variations doesn't seem to appear in Torah. But the text is not absent the concept.

Israel adopted the sons of Joseph as his own and co-heirs with Joseph's brothers simply by declaration that they were his sons. Even the name Israel went with the tribe of Ephraim along with the double portion. So the literal precedent certainly exists. I would think that if the King of Judah declares me a close relation and co-heir, that would be enough to make me a member of the tribe (read:family) in a legal sense. Just thinking out loud here...
 
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macher

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I'm curious. Do you see your status as being adopted as a brother and co-heir with Messiah as strictly allegorical? The word adoption or it's variations doesn't seem to appear in Torah. But the text is not absent the concept.

Israel adopted the sons of Joseph as his own and co-heirs with Joseph's brothers simply by declaration that they were his sons. Even the name Israel went with the tribe of Ephraim along with the double portion. So the literal precedent certainly exists. I would think that if the King of Judah declares me a close relation and co-heir, that would be enough to make me a member of the tribe (read:family) in a legal sense. Just thinking out loud here...

In my case I'm not adopted, I'm grafted back in. In a case when one isn't a descendant of Israel yes you are adopted co-heirs equally of the promise which is the Seed of Abraham.
 
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Yahudim

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In my case I'm not adopted, I'm grafted back in. In a case when one isn't a descendant of Israel yes you are adopted co-heirs equally of the promise which is the Seed of Abraham.
I'm not sure that distinction makes a difference. When He said, "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" He was addressing ethic Judeans. This theme is repeated throughout the teaching of His talmidim. But it seems a little ambiguous in regards to it being literal or allegorical. That's why I'm asking.
 
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macher

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I'm not sure that distinction makes a difference. When He said, "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" He was addressing ethic Judeans. This theme is repeated throughout the teaching of His talmidim. But it seems a little ambiguous in regards to it being literal or allegorical. That's why I'm asking.

Again as per Romans 11 believing Jews are not adopted they are grafted back into the Olive Tree they were once broken off.

But you're getting off topic of my OP.
 
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Yahudim

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Again as per Romans 11 believing Jews are not adopted they are grafted back into the Olive Tree they were once broken off.

But you're getting off topic of my OP.
Just as the wild olive branches are grafted into the cultivated one... I didn't think I was getting off topic. I was asking for your view on a related matter; something which you seem very reluctant to share.

Obviously I have offended you in some way. Sorry about that.
 
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macher

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Just as the wild olive branches are grafted into the cultivated one... I didn't think I was getting off topic. I was asking for your view on a related matter; something which you seem very reluctant to share.

Obviously I have offended you in some way. Sorry about that.

I gave my answer, do you need more clarity? You're accusing me of being reluctant which you habit of doing :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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In the case of Ruth scripture doesn't teach if she went through the likes of a Beit Din. All we know from scripture is scripture still describes Ruth as a Moabite even though she was a widow to a Jewish husband and her mother in law was Jewish. And we know from scripture that in the Torah it says 'put away the gentile wives' in context it means because they corrupted the husbands by idol worship etc but scripture doesn't say to put away those that are believers in the God of Israel, just like the Peter/Cornelius incident.
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Adoption does make a world of difference on the issue, I think.

This happened often in the cultures surrounding the Hebrews during Jacob's day. With the tribe of Simeon, this seemed to play out since they were absored into the tribe of Judah/adopted at one point---and yet they also got adopted into other tribes as well. To give more thoughts, on what occurred with Simeon's fate, there was a book I read earlier last year (recommended by another Messianic Jew) entitled "Arabs in the Shadow of Israel: The Unfolding of God's Prophetic Plan for Ishmael's Line" by Dr.Tony Maalouf, it was very insightful studying up on the bloodlines that the scriptures note---and showing how many of them blended (such as Ishmael's line and Easu's as well, for example) and why they often did so through the act of adopting members into the tribe....and making them one of the people just as it often occurred in Middle-Eastern/African culture. More on what he said on that can be seen here in #8 and here, including discussing where other tribes from the Israelite culture adopted others/blended for the sake of survival (as what occurred with the line of Simeon) - and more elsewhere, as shared on Caleb (from Easu's line and later adopted into Judah), who chose to help him and stand out as Numbers 32:11-13 notes (more discussed here in #70 , #11 , #23 and#24.#54 #59 ).

Historically and today (because of Adoption), Joseph's sons were considered Hebrew even though they were known to have Egyptian ancestry--and would NOT have been included as being Jewish unless they were adopted by the Hebrews of their day (just as it was with multiple others since then till today). Genesis makes plain that it was only after Jacob adopted them/blessed them as His own that they were considered to have the full rights as others did in the tribes---and this is consistent with the many in scripture who had Jewish blood in them and yet were not considered apart of the people due to not being adopted into the tribes of Israel for many various factors.



In regard to Joseph's sons, more shared here as it concerns the extensive ways Joseph lived in sync with Egyptian culture even though he also honored his Hebrew roots (i.e. shaving his beard, dressing Egyptian, taking on an Egyptian name, marrying an Egyptian wife, etc). In light of how Ephraim/Manasseah were adopted by Jacob into the 12 tribes (despite their being Egyptian via their mother/how they grew up)--and with Ephraim and Manasseh, though physically half-Israelites, Gentiles in the truest sense:
The subject of the blessing is very significant when it comes to studying the issue of passing on callings/responsibilities to others and (as was common in that culture) ADopting others into a tribe. There was nothing wrong with blessing Gentiles. For example, Jacob blessed the Pharaoh of Egypt, a rank pagan. In Genesis 47:7-10, the text declares, "and Jacob blessed Pharaoh…"


The passing of blessings from the hands of a godly man was for God himself to bless that person, individually. In other words when a righteous person passed a blessing to another person, God honored it without question. Nowhere in the significance of laying hands on another and speaking blessings be seen as clearly as it is seen in Genesis when Jacob blessed Ephraim and Manasseh, the two half-Egyptian (Gentile) sons of Joseph in Genesis 48:19-21 /Genesis 48 .
Genesis 48:3
Jacob said to Joseph, “God Almighty[a] appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and there he blessed me 4 and said to me, ‘I am going to make you fruitful and increase your numbers. I will make you a community of peoples, and I will give this land as an everlasting possession to your descendants after you.’

5 “Now then, your two sons born to you in Egypt before I came to you here will be reckoned as mine; Ephraim and Manasseh will be mine, just as Reuben and Simeon are mine. 6 Any children born to you after them will be yours; in the territory they inherit they will be reckoned under the names of their brothers. 7 As I was returning from Paddan,[b] to my sorrow Rachel died in the land of Canaan while we were still on the way, a little distance from Ephrath. So I buried her there beside the road to Ephrath” (that is, Bethlehem).

With Ephraim/Manasseh ( Genesis 41:51-53 , Genesis 46:19-21/ Genesis 46, Genesis 50:22-24 / Genesis 50, Numbers 1:9-11 / Numbers 1, Deuteronomy 33:16-18 / Deuteronomy 33, Joshua 14:3-5/ Joshua 14 , Joshua 16 , etc )Just before Jacob died, Joseph brought Ephraim and Manasseh to Jacob, and the two boys knelt before their grandfather. Jacob shocked everyone in the room when he crossed his hands putting his left hand on the head of Manasseh, the eldest son, and his right hand on the head of Ephraim, the younger son. It was the reverse order.

The blessing of Jacob that he gave his grand-children (especially Ephraim) consisted of the five most crucial parts of God's covenant with Israel. First, Jacob asked God to be Lord over Ephraim and Manasseh. Second, Jacob asked God to redeem Ephraim and Manasseh through the messenger of redemption. Third, Jacob gave to Ephraim and Manasseh his own name; that is, he adopted them. Fourth, Jacob gave the name of his forefathers to the boys further indicating their adoption as true sons of Israel. Fifth, Jacob asked God to make Ephraim and Manasseh into a great multitude of people. Clearly, Jacob's blessing of Ephraim and Manasseh by laying his hands upon their heads was the same as the blessings he had bestowed upon his natural born sons earlier.

Jacob's blessing, including the adoption of Ephraim and Manasseh as his own sons, replacing the former Egyptian heritage of these two young men with a new Hebrew heritage. Thus, Ephraim and Manasseh were drafted into Jacob's family. Like Paul noted in Romans 11, they became natural branches, full brothers with the other sons of Israel. This gave Ephraim and Manasseh the same responsibilities and rewards that the natural-born sons already had. The Egyptian identity of Ephraim and Manasseh remained only in the sense of ethnicity/cultural background and origins--but outside of that, they were now considered to be "Hebrews" and they they gained the identity of true Israelites...becoming partakers of the same covenants as the other sons of Israel, and subject to the same commandments and responsibilities as Jacob's natural born sons.

As soon as Jacob's hands touched their heads, and the words of blessings left his mouth, Ephraim and Manasseh became equal partakers of the root and the fatness of the natural olive tree that the apostle Paul wrote about in Romans 11:16-18 / Romans 11 :
"If some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them, to partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree."


I'd go with the traditional interpretation that at best Joshua was mixed since the children of Joseph were still considered Hebrews....abeit mixed/biracial Hebrews with dual heritage (i.e. aspects of Gentile culture apart of their background as well as the Hebraic)...similar to those who are Egyptian Jews. ( as discussed here and here in #12 ). Nun was apart of the tribe from Joseph's children ( Exodus 33:10-12, Numbers 11:27-29 , Numbers 13:15-17 , Numbers 14:29-31 , Numbers 26:64-65 , Numbers 27:17-19 , Numbers 32:11-13 , etc).

From what other Jewish people have often noted, identifying with other people as apart of their ancestry isn't required in order to identify with Jewishness. Someone who's born with a Sephardic Jewish mother and a Mexican father doesn't say that they have to deny being Mexican in order to accept being Jewish.....although where their Mexican heritage calls them to do things that the Jewish religion would not allow, in order to live out the Jewish heritage, the Mexican side would have to lose.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I can see the 4th generation thing however in the time of Ezra where the wives that were sent away were they idolatrous and therefore corrupted their husbands or had the potential to corrupt?

Why can't the same be applied to the time of Ezra? A Jewish man who is a believer in the One True God marries a gentile woman who believes in the God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob?

It depends on how the gentile wives are viewed. The question of these gentile wives aren't answered per se.
Some have noted that Ezra's strong act was necessary to preserve Israel as nation committed to God. For some of the exiles of the Northern Kingdom of Israel had lost both their spiritual and physical identity through intermarriage...and their heathen spouses caused them to worship idols (I Kings 16:29-34, I Kings 21, II Kings 17, II Chronicles 18, II Chronicles 22-24, II Kings 11-12, etc).

Just because a group of people had Israelite blood in their genes (or Judaic blood) when they were mixed didn't automatically not make them "Israel" or "Judah"..for it was a matter of practice that defined them as such. That leaves open the issue of how to deal with those other Jews who were the product of Mixed marriages. The Story of Esther comes to mind, as she is an example of a Jew who was greatly connected to Gentile culture. For the culture she lived in was one of many differing groups connected together in the Persian Empire...and with multi languages and one where Jews were involved in each ( Esther 1:21-22 , Esther 3:11-13, Esther 8:8-10 ).
Esther 2:6
15 When the turn came for Esther (the young woman Mordecai had adopted, the daughter of his uncle Abihail) to go to the king, she asked for nothing other than what Hegai, the king’s eunuch who was in charge of the harem, suggested. And Esther won the favor of everyone who saw her. 16 She was taken to King Xerxes in the royal residence in the tenth month, the month of Tebeth, in the seventh year of his reign. 17 Now the king was attracted to Esther more than to any of the other women, and she won his favor and approval more than any of the other virgins. So he set a royal crown on her head and made her queen instead of Vashti. 18 And the king gave a great banquet, Esther’s banquet, for all his nobles and officials. He proclaimed a holiday throughout the provinces and distributed gifts with royal liberality.
Esther 2:1-18 shows how she chose to learn whatever it was she needed for success---with God blessing it. And by her and her uncle placed in leadership, Jews rose to prominence. This is especially interesting in light of how Jews were already returning to Jerusalem after the 70yrs were up (Ezra 1-4) and some had chosen to stay where they had made homes for themselves/lives


As Esther was married to the KING OF PERSIA (Esther 2-8), she was used greatly to save her people.....but nonetheless, she was married to a pagan king. Moreover, as it stands, her story is 30 yrs prior to the events recorded in Nehemiah....and essentially right after what occurred in Ezra 4 with Zerubbabel and prior to Ezra (a contemporary of Nehemiah). If she had children with the King of Persia, would they be considered Jewish? Would they have to consider themselves PERSIAN only? Or would Esthers Jewish faith be imparted to them just like it was with Timothy's mother/grandmother in Acts 16:1-5 and II Timothy 1:5 ? If those children Queen Esther had were to interact with others in the time of Ezra, would they have been exiled/cast away as Ezra requested with the children given to the men who were involved with intermarriage?

Part of me often wonders how many would handle others from the scriptures if they existed today, such as Esther. FOr again, she was married to a Persian King, even though she was a devout (abeit hidden/Crypto) Jew (Esther 2, Esther 8-9, etc). An historical essay said that King Xerxes is later killed by one of his own men (murdered) a couple of years after everything went down with Esther's story...but it did not say if they'd had children or what they were named.


As another said best:
Xerxes was killed in fall of 465 B.C. by Artabanus (his counseler) who also killed the oldest son (this was the son of Vashti). He then proclaimed himself king and was killed by Artaxerxes 1 several months later in hand to hand combat. Artaxerxes 1 was between 10 and 12 years old depending on the reference you check. This was quite a feat for a child that young but remember he was trained in combat since he was old enough to walk. Artaxerxes 1 then took the throne as the rightful king.

Esther the queen mother is still alive at this time. Now if Artaxerxes 1 is only 12 years old then he had to have been born in 477 B.C. This was the year following Esther becoming queen. So Esther was the mother of Artaxerxes 1 making him half Jewish. Now we see why he would have a Jew as a cup bearer (Nehemiah 1 )r. Not because it was a conquered people but because he was a Jew himself. In addition it was Artaxerxes 1 that in the 20th year of his reign (444 B.C.) issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem which started the countdown to the coming of Christ, as prophesied by Daniel (Daniel 9:25) and ending on the 10th of Nisan 33 A.D. when Christ rode to the temple and was rejected by the Jews (he was cut off or set aside for the Passover) to be crucified. The prophecy by God was fulfilled to the very day in its accuracy. I hope this helps your understanding and answers your question.

Of course, what the man noted is not something that others feel could be verified 100%..but it's something to consider. There was actually a book I had investigated at one point entitled Esther's Children: A Portrait of Iranian Jews (more shared here ) and what life was like for the Jewish people in Babylon (modern Iran) and what often happened with them when they were either involved in Crypto-Jewish lifestyle or intemarrying with them while still trying to keep their Jewish culture.....and it really made me think on how many of those within the scriptures may disagree with some of the practices that are done today when it comes to mixed families.

I'd side with those who note having a Gentile genetic/cultural background as apart of your ancestry doesn't preclude you from embracing/walking in the Jewish/Hebraic aspect of their culture...and with Esther, although the children from her marriage with Xeres would be half-Gentile, that would not keep them from being deemed Jewish and apart of the Jewish people if they walked accordingly.

For a child to be born to a couple where the father was Jewish and the mother wasn't made that child considered as Jewish. Its no different than what often occurs with biracial individuals. People can be both 100% Caribbean and 100% Italian if they are of a mixed background, sharing both cultures within myself. I know Brother Shimshon has often spoken on the subject many times whenever people question him about his being Taino, Puerto Rican and Jewish..( #2#4 #35 #164 )..

But as he well noted as it concerns the issue of how those not ethnically Hebrew were still seen as Israel:
This mixed multitued of egyptians and hebrews were all Yisrael because they all followed by faith the Elohim of Yisrael. Or they would not be there. .
It's the lifestyle rather than the genetics alone that count...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I can see the 4th generation thing however in the time of Ezra where the wives that were sent away were they idolatrous and therefore corrupted their husbands or had the potential to corrupt?

Why can't the same be applied to the time of Ezra? A Jewish man who is a believer in the One True God marries a gentile woman who believes in the God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob?

It depends on how the gentile wives are viewed. The question of these gentile wives aren't answered per se.

In Ezra 9-10 when intermarriage was occurring, the children from those marriages were NOT considered "Israelites"--but a differing category altogether....one which required for the Israelites to send their children off in divorce.
Ezra 9:1-3
Ezra’s Prayer About Intermarriage

1 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, “The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness.”

3 When I heard this, I tore my tunic and cloak, pulled hair from my head and beard and sat down appalled. 4 Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel gathered around me because of this unfaithfulness of the exiles. And I sat there appalled until the evening sacrifice.

Ezra 10:12-44

Within the three days, all the men of Judah and Benjamin had gathered in Jerusalem. And on the twentieth day of the ninth month, all the people were sitting in the square before the house of God, greatly distressed by the occasion and because of the rain. 10 Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, “You have been unfaithful; you have married foreign women, adding to Israel’s guilt. 11 Now honor the LORD, the God of your ancestors, and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples around you and from your foreign wives.”

12 The whole assembly responded with a loud voice: “You are right! We must do as you say. 13 But there are many people here and it is the rainy season; so we cannot stand outside. Besides, this matter cannot be taken care of in a day or two, because we have sinned greatly in this thing. 14 Let our officials act for the whole assembly. Then let everyone in our towns who has married a foreign woman come at a set time, along with the elders and judges of each town, until the fierce anger of our God in this matter is turned away from us.” 15 Only Jonathan son of Asahel and Jahzeiah son of Tikvah, supported by Meshullam and Shabbethai the Levite, opposed this. 16 So the exiles did as was proposed. Ezra the priest selected men who were family heads, one from each family division, and all of them designated by name.

Since the time of the judges, Israelite men had married heathen women and then adopted their religious practices (Judges 3:5-7), Even Israel's great King Solomon was guilty of this sin ( I Kings 11:1-8). Although this practice was forbidden in God's Law (Exodus 34:11-16, Deuteronomy 7:1-4), it happened in Ezra's day and again only a generation after him (Nehemiah 13:23-27). Opposition to mixed marriages was not a racial prejudice, because Jews and non-Jews of this area were of the same semitic background. The reasons it seems were purely spiritual.....for one who married a heathen spouse was inclinded to adopt that person's heathen practices. If the Israelities were insentive enough to disobey God in something as important as marriage, they couldn't be strong enough to oppose their spouses's idolatry. One can go to the NT to see a similar principle when it notes that believers should not marry non-believers (II Corinthians 6:14)....

But with Ezra, in Ezra 10:3, it has always been interesting to see how the people were commanded by the scribe to DIVORCE their wives and leave their children. Although the measure was extreme, I've heard that others say the intermarriage to heathens was already forbidden---with even the priests and the Levities intermarrying. The equivalent would be a Christian marrying to a devil worshipper....


In Ezra 10, the wives of the Jewish men and the children from those marriages were not deemed "Jewish" and were sent away/divorced---with the children of Jewish ancestry having no rights amongst the people. The mothers of the children (just like Ephraim and Manasseah) were not Jewish---and yet they weren't adopted as were Ephraim/Manasseah by Jacob. With Joseph since there is absolutely no record that his wife was not apart of the Egyptian religion or religious system of the day. Only that she was given in marriage to Joseph by Pharoah and that she was a high priest 's daughter. Again, there's no record of the mother of Ephraim/Manasseah ever converting---just as there's no record of the wives of the priests coverting in Ezra 9-10. ..although it could have easily been the same reality and things evolved by the time it reached the scene with Ezra. With Ezra, the primary issue was one of worship practices rather than ethnicity alone....but the children themselves could have been adopted later if they wanted to convert.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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In the case of Ruth scripture doesn't teach if she went through the likes of a Beit Din. All we know from scripture is scripture still describes Ruth as a Moabite even though she was a widow to a Jewish husband and her mother in law was Jewish. And we know from scripture that in the Torah it says 'put away the gentile wives' in context it means because they corrupted the husbands by idol worship etc but scripture doesn't say to put away those that are believers in the God of Israel, just like the Peter/Cornelius incident..

Rahab the Prostitute from Joshua 2-5 ( Joshua 2 /Joshua 6:16-18, Hebrews 11:30-32 /James 2:24-26 )would be another to consider in the equation. As much as others focus on Ruth, Boaz is a very interesting case study since his own mother was a Gentile from a corrupt nation like Ruth was - as Rahab was from Jericho ( Matthew 1:4-6 ):

Matthew 1:5
Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,Obed the father of Jesse,
Matthew 1:4-6 / Matthew 1

Thus, what you have in many ways in Ruth is a story of Two people with strong connections to Gentile culture and both being used to honor the God of Israel.
 
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Yahudim

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I gave my answer, do you need more clarity? You're accusing me of being reluctant which you habit of doing :)
Wow! I'm not accusing you of anything, macher. Said I was sorry. I was being sincere.

Clarity would be nice. I obviously don't understand. But I don't want to put you out either so I'll drop it. You obviously don't want me asking questions.

Perhaps if you are feeling generous at some point, you'll PM me and tell me what I did wrong. In any case, I am sorry I offended you. Be blessed.
 
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macher

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Wow! I'm not accusing you of anything, macher. Said I was sorry. I was being sincere.

Clarity would be nice. I obviously don't understand. But I don't want to put you out either so I'll drop it. You obviously don't want me asking questions.

Perhaps if you are feeling generous at some point, you'll PM me and tell me what I did wrong. In any case, I am sorry I offended you. Be blessed.

Listen my job is representing people in employment and negotiating contracts when someone says 'macher you're reluctant to say XYZ' that means in Philly you're intentionally trying to hide something or unwilling.

If you want clarity then I will.
 
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visionary

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I have yet to see any habit of thinking or expressions towards you being reluctant.. other than trying to peel off more understanding regarding Romans 11 and the meaning behind wild olive branch [one time questioning]. Please forgive and get back to the discussion.
 
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macher

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Gxg (G²);62185509 said:
Rahab the Prostitute from Joshua 2-5 ( Joshua 2 /Joshua 6:16-18, Hebrews 11:30-32 /James 2:24-26 )would be another to consider in the equation. As much as others focus on Ruth, Boaz is a very interesting case study since his own mother was a Gentile from a corrupt nation like Ruth was - as Rahab was from Jericho ( Matthew 1:4-6 ):

Matthew 1:5
Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,Obed the father of Jesse,
Matthew 1:4-6 / Matthew 1

Thus, what you have in many ways in Ruth is a story of Two people with strong connections to Gentile culture and both being used to honor the God of Israel.

There are 2 schools of thought pertaining to Ruth. But both schools acknowledge that Ruth was a Moabite.

How did Naomi's sons marry non-Jewish Moabite women? - The Details

1- The biblical commentaries discuss the question that you ask, and they suggest different answers. Some are of the opinion that Ruth and her Moabite sister-in-law Orpah did not convert before marrying Naomi's two sons. According to this interpretation, these two men were guilty of intermarrying.

2- The Zohar Chadash maintains that Ruth and Orpah did convert before marrying. However, if this is the case, why did Naomi try to convince them both to return to their idolatrous families after the deaths of their husbands?

A conversion to Judaism is dependant on the sincerity of the one converting. During their husbands' lifetime, it was uncertain whether they observed Judaism out of a sincere desire to be part of the Jewish nation, or only to please their husbands. Naomi urged them to remain in Moab to test their sincerity. Orpah indeed remained, while Ruth, who always truly desired to be a Jew, insisted on traveling along to the land of Israel with her mother-in-law to live a Jewish life. Ruth abandoned the luxuries she had as a Moabite princess, readily prepared to become a pauper, out of a sincere love for G‑d.
 
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macher

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Gxg (G²);62185509 said:
Rahab the Prostitute from Joshua 2-5 ( Joshua 2 /Joshua 6:16-18, Hebrews 11:30-32 /James 2:24-26 )would be another to consider in the equation. As much as others focus on Ruth, Boaz is a very interesting case study since his own mother was a Gentile from a corrupt nation like Ruth was - as Rahab was from Jericho ( Matthew 1:4-6 ):

Matthew 1:5
Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,Obed the father of Jesse,
Matthew 1:4-6 / Matthew 1

Thus, what you have in many ways in Ruth is a story of Two people with strong connections to Gentile culture and both being used to honor the God of Israel.

There are 2 schools of thought pertaining to Ruth. But both schools acknowledge that Ruth was a Moabite.

http://www.chabad.org/library/artic...h/How-did-Naomis-sons-marry-Moabite-women.htm

1- The biblical commentaries discuss the question that you ask, and they suggest different answers. Some are of the opinion that Ruth and her Moabite sister-in-law Orpah did not convert before marrying Naomi's two sons. According to this interpretation, these two men were guilty of intermarrying.

2- The Zohar Chadash maintains that Ruth and Orpah did convert before marrying. However, if this is the case, why did Naomi try to convince them both to return to their idolatrous families after the deaths of their husbands?

A conversion to Judaism is dependant on the sincerity of the one converting. During their husbands' lifetime, it was uncertain whether they observed Judaism out of a sincere desire to be part of the Jewish nation, or only to please their husbands. Naomi urged them to remain in Moab to test their sincerity. Orpah indeed remained, while Ruth, who always truly desired to be a Jew, insisted on traveling along to the land of Israel with her mother-in-law to live a Jewish life. Ruth abandoned the luxuries she had as a Moabite princess, readily prepared to become a pauper, out of a sincere love for G‑d.

Here's Ruth's ancestry

"Here's what we know about her. She was a granddaughter of Eglon, king of Moab, who himself was a grandson of Balak, king of Moab during Moses' times."
 
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mishkan

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How would a Messianic Beit Din differ from what's present in the 'traditional' Jewish community?

It would not be different, necessarily.

That was not my point, however. I was not distinguishing a Messianic Beit Din (which doesn't exist) from a traditional Jewish Beit Din.

In the case of Ruth scripture doesn't teach if she went through the likes of a Beit Din.

This was my point. Scripture gives us the model that a Gentile, upon making a declaration of allegience with Israel, is accepted as part of the community. That is not the case today. I'm not saying that I have a problem with any standardized course of study and mentoring. But, due to historical circumstances, any modern beit din will consider it part of their job to weed out followers of Yeshua. Thus, the believing Gentile who wishes to make the transition into the Jewish community is caught between a rock and a hard place.

As a result, I have come to the conclusion that my status is a matter of my own sense of identity, and nothing anyone says will alter that.

All we know from scripture is scripture still describes Ruth as a Moabite even though she was a widow to a Jewish husband and her mother in law was Jewish.

Yes, but the label "the Moabitess" may just be the usual suffix identifying which specific Ruth is being referenced. Just like "Eliyahu ha Tishbi". We don't know whether the intention is to hang her past around her neck with the phrase. I think it is not.

And we know from scripture that in the Torah it says 'put away the gentile wives' in context it means because they corrupted the husbands by idol worship etc but scripture doesn't say to put away those that are believers in the God of Israel, just like the Peter/Cornelius incident.

Correct. At issue in Nehemiah 13 is the paganizing influence. That is explcicitly stated through comparison with Solomon.

Your comment sort of has to do with my topic. I'm not disagreeing with the rabbi's on matrilineal but what I see lacking is addressing patrillineal.

In Ruth case is it assumed she is an Israelite? We know Boaz is. And we know David is.

BTW I asked this question at the Lubavith House on campus but I presented the question in a different light.

My comment was intended to broaden the topic a bit. Yes, there is the concern for refusing to acknowledge patrilineal descent. I don't follow the logic, except for the fact that we can always verify the mother of a child with 100% accuracy. Ironically, the Orthodox deny that this is their rationale!

Actually, my point was that faithful Gentiles, willing and able to identify with israel, are denied acceptance. In the early days of the Messianic Movement, the general consensus was to accept Gentiles into the community because they demonstrated fidelity to Yeshua and to the Jewish community. We are moving away from that posture. Messianic leaders are increasingly accepting the traditional rabbinic posture of refusing to acknowledge Gentile gerim without benefit of a formal conversion--a beit din.

But the whole idea of needing a beit din is problematic for a community where even born Jews are viewed as less than authentic. There is zero value in creating a formal body, only to continue to be rejected by the traditional community as lower than Reform or Secular.

So, as always, I come back to, "I yam what I yam, and that's alls I can be." I don't fit cleanly into anybody's categories, and I'm fine with that. I'm too Goyishe for some, and too Jewish for others.

That's life.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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There are 2 schools of thought pertaining to Ruth. But both schools acknowledge that Ruth was a Moabite.

http://www.chabad.org/library/artic...h/How-did-Naomis-sons-marry-Moabite-women.htm

1- The biblical commentaries discuss the question that you ask, and they suggest different answers. Some are of the opinion that Ruth and her Moabite sister-in-law Orpah did not convert before marrying Naomi's two sons. According to this interpretation, these two men were guilty of intermarrying.

2- The Zohar Chadash maintains that Ruth and Orpah did convert before marrying. However, if this is the case, why did Naomi try to convince them both to return to their idolatrous families after the deaths of their husbands?

A conversion to Judaism is dependant on the sincerity of the one converting. During their husbands' lifetime, it was uncertain whether they observed Judaism out of a sincere desire to be part of the Jewish nation, or only to please their husbands. Naomi urged them to remain in Moab to test their sincerity. Orpah indeed remained, while Ruth, who always truly desired to be a Jew, insisted on traveling along to the land of Israel with her mother-in-law to live a Jewish life. Ruth abandoned the luxuries she had as a Moabite princess, readily prepared to become a pauper, out of a sincere love for G‑d.

Here's Ruth's ancestry

"Here's what we know about her. She was a granddaughter of Eglon, king of Moab, who himself was a grandson of Balak, king of Moab during Moses' times."
Very interesting points, especially as it concerns the ancestry of Ruth and her being a granddaughter of of Cannanite King - and thus, for her to turn her back on her people would be not only leaving behind a lot of great prestige....but facing the plight of being considered an outcast/traitor by her own heritage while also being looked down upon by the people she was seeking to join.

I do think the theory of Ruth/Orpah not converting before they married their husbands is a good possibilities - in line with the thought that Ruth changed the more she spent time with God's people....and the fact that Naomi tried to convice them to return to their own people seems to indicate that perhaps she though that is what they may've wanted all along - something that can easily come up when seeing behavior for years previously and wondering if it's sincere or just being done for duty to your mate.

I still think, of course, that Boaz is an interesting case study since it seems he was able to relate well to Ruth due to the ancestry he came from - having a mother (Rahab the Prostitute) who was a Cannanite herself and living amongst the people of Israel. Some have wondered why Rahab was forever known as "The Prostitute" - with others speculating that perhaps she remained in that role....while others noted that the Children of Israel may've accepted her but forever remembered her background/where she came from. With that understanding, to see others looking down on Ruth or treating her on the basis of where she came from would be something Boaz would have taken seriously..:)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Do you encourage him to marry a Jewish woman? I'm just curious. That would have been my answer. Marry a Jewish woman and you won't have to worry about it. :D
Keep it in the family ^_^- like Abraham who told his servant "Do NOT get a Cannanite girl for my son" in Genesis 24 and wanted one from his own kin:)
 
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annier

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Gxg (G²);62175664 said:
I understand you're challenging things with descendancy being based on the mother alone - and I shared earlier how I think there's a lot of merit on it, even though there are other things to consider.

Numbers 27:18
The daughters of Zelophehad son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Makir, the son of Manasseh, belonged to the clans of Manasseh son of Joseph. The names of the daughters were Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah, Milcah and Tirzah. They approached 2 the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and stood before Moses, Eleazar the priest, the leaders and the whole assembly, and said, 3 “Our father died in the desert. He was not among Korah’s followers, who banded together against the Lord, but he died for his own sin and left no sons. 4 Why should our father’s name disappear from his clan because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s relatives.”

5 So Moses brought their case before the Lord 6 and the Lord said to him, 7 “What Zelophehad’s daughters are saying is right. You must certainly give them property as an inheritance among their father’s relatives and turn their father’s inheritance over to them.8 “Say to the Israelites, ‘If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter. 9 If he has no daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers. 10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father’s brothers. 11 If his father had no brothers, give his inheritance to the nearest relative in his clan, that he may possess it. This is to be a legal requirement for the Israelites, as the Lord commanded Moses.’”
Numbers 36

Inheritance of Zelophehad’s Daughters

36 The family heads of the clan of Gilead son of Makir, the son of Manasseh, who were from the clans of the descendants of Joseph, came and spoke before Moses and the leaders, the heads of the Israelite families. 2 They said, “When the Lord commanded my lord to give the land as an inheritance to the Israelites by lot, he ordered you to give the inheritance of our brother Zelophehad to his daughters. 3 Now suppose they marry men from other Israelite tribes; then their inheritance will be taken from our ancestral inheritance and added to that of the tribe they marry into. And so part of the inheritance allotted to us will be taken away. 4 When the Year of Jubilee for the Israelites comes, their inheritance will be added to that of the tribe into which they marry, and their property will be taken from the tribal inheritance of our forefathers.”
5 Then at the Lord’s command Moses gave this order to the Israelites: “What the tribe of the descendants of Joseph is saying is right. 6 This is what the Lord commands for Zelophehad’s daughters: They may marry anyone they please as long as they marry within the tribal clan of their father. 7 No inheritance in Israel is to pass from tribe to tribe, for every Israelite shall keep the tribal land inherited from his forefathers. 8 Every daughter who inherits land in any Israelite tribe must marry someone in her father’s tribal clan, so that every Israelite will possess the inheritance of his fathers. 9 No inheritance may pass from tribe to tribe, for each Israelite tribe is to keep the land it inherits.”

10 So Zelophehad’s daughters did as the Lord commanded Moses. 11 Zelophehad’s daughters—Mahlah, Tirzah, Hoglah, Milcah and Noah—married their cousins on their father’s side. 12 They married within the clans of the descendants of Manasseh son of Joseph, and their inheritance remained in their father’s clan and tribe.

13 These are the commands and regulations the Lord gave through Moses to the Israelites on the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho
1 Chronicles 7:15
Makir took a wife from among the Huppites and Shuppites. His sister’s name was Maacah.Another descendant was named Zelophehad, who had only daughters.
1 Chronicles 7:14-16
Joshua 17
Now Zelophehad son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Makir, the son of Manasseh, had no sons but only daughters, whose names were Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah, Milcah and Tirzah. 4 They went to Eleazar the priest, Joshua son of Nun, and the leaders and said, “The Lord commanded Moses to give us an inheritance among our brothers.” So Joshua gave them an inheritance along with the brothers of their father, according to the Lord’s command.
Saying Jewishness had to be determined patrilinearly doesn't seem to add up since the scriptures do not always show such to be true. I'm reminded of Joshua 17:3-4. For although women did not traditionally inherit property in Israelite society, Moses put justice ahead of tradition and gave these 5 women mentioned the land they deserved (Numbers 27:1-11). In fact, God told Moses to add a law that would help other women in similar circumstances inherit property as well...and Joshua, in his time, was carrying out that law. Numbers 27 gives more information on the issue. For up to that point, the Hebrew Law gave sons alone the right to inherit. But the daughters of Zelophehad, having no brothers, came to Moses to ask for their father's possessions. God told Moses that if a man died without sons, his inheritance would go to his daughters. But the daughters could keep it only if they married within their own tribe, probably so the territorial lines would remain intact (Numbers 36:5-12)
Don't both of these examples make the male the source of identity?
 
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