If Love Is

Wagonmaker

Newbie
Nov 14, 2012
198
5
Texas
✟15,351.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
If love is the ultimate reality, there can be no opposite or equal to it. If God is Love, and God is ultimate reality, then there really exists nothing outside of the boundaries of love.

What of evil, you ask? Huge question. Simple answer. Not easy, but simple. Evil is allowed by God to help us cognize “free will”. Whatever made us would like for us to recognize ourselves as children of God, not slaves. If the duality of good and bad did not exist, we would not perceive the choice between disobedience and obedience. And yet, when we choose to obey God we are hopelessly enslaved by this Greatest of Lovers.

So if love is the ultimate reality, and our goal is to find it, whether it be through purpose or knowledge or revelation, then we find ourselves either in the midst of it, or not.

Are you in or are you out?
 

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If love is the ultimate reality, there can be no opposite or equal to it. If God is Love, and God is ultimate reality, then there really exists nothing outside of the boundaries of love.

What of evil, you ask? Huge question. Simple answer. Not easy, but simple. Evil is allowed by God to help us cognize “free will”. Whatever made us would like for us to recognize ourselves as children of God, not slaves. If the duality of good and bad did not exist, we would not perceive the choice between disobedience and obedience. And yet, when we choose to obey God we are hopelessly enslaved by this Greatest of Lovers.

So if love is the ultimate reality, and our goal is to find it, whether it be through purpose or knowledge or revelation, then we find ourselves either in the midst of it, or not.

Are you in or are you out?

love can be somewhat of an ambiguous word today and although you can say God is love and the reverse that love is God when the latter is emphasized and your definition of love is distorted then your definition of God inherits that distortion. So to me it is important to define love through the context of God and only then God is love and love is God. In the same way to say love is ultimate reality than again if your definition of love is distorted then ultimate reality turns into deception. So these words need to first be defined through God. This works the same with evil as evil inherently is that which is not good. But what is goodness? God is goodness and goodness is God but just like love goodness is defined through God so then that which is evil is that which goes against God. When these words are defined through God we then approach them correctly. To do evil is inherently to reject God and to do good is inherently to embrace God. To me it is not good enough to say that our ultimate goal in life is to find love as that can lead you down to a corrupted idea of who God is. Instead our goal should be to find God which will ultimately revel to us what love and truth really is.
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,202
5,877
✟296,775.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
love can be somewhat of an ambiguous word today

I agree. Most people think if you are nice to everyone, you are a loving person.

Nowadays, even Christians have replaced the Truth by flattery. It is not love it is sin! Nobody gets saved by flattery but only deceived!
 
Upvote 0

Noxot

anarchist personalist
Supporter
Aug 6, 2007
8,191
2,450
37
dallas, texas
Visit site
✟231,339.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I would not call good and evil a duality because I see evil as the lack of good. I see the true reality which is God and there is no evil in Him. I have tasted a stronger faith than many and now I am the enemy of many for I no longer wish to be wise in my own eyes, though i'm not perfect. those far away do not know God, those who are sons know God more and more. evil can prevail against God as much as the earth can wrestle against it's sun. the earth has no power. evil is the lack of power, because true power is from God. evil is lack of God, but God sustains it and orders its and gives it a purpose, though it will soon be shaken and gone. God will force it to have a use, because God is the master of all things. good will fill evil and it will be no more. evil is not real because God is real, evil is a shadow that fades away, evil was a dream that was quickly forgotten by the children of God, they all woke from slumber.

but people are weak, they have no power to fight the truth, they only deceive themselves and are deceived that they have a firm grasp on who God is. that is nothing more than pride if you think you get God and yet don't even see your own wickedness in your own hearts and minds. forsake all if you want to taste Christ, nothing matters but God, not your soul and not your mother, it is hard to kick against the goads, you hurt your soul in doing so. you hurt yourself day after day, you slash yourself with sharp stones and yet you are still to this day unaware.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JoJo50

Trying to do Jehovah's will
Mar 7, 2011
227
5
✟7,983.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
Marital Status
Private


[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']I’m sorry but you’re wrong, the God of Israel didn’t “allow” evil, so that we may know “free will.” The first couple ALWAYS had free will. They could do whatever they wanted in the garden. All that they did would have been good, because there were not supposed to be evil. Evil came because a certain Angel was Jealous of the power, and honor Jehovah God received, he wanted it ,([/FONT][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'] Ezek. 28:13-18). Satan brought ALL negative upon earth , Jehovah just allowed it to stay for a while, God never plan on us being “bad” only good. satan had many Angels being humans ONLY will serve Jehovah God IF… they had all they wanted ,( Job 1:8-22, and Job 2:1-7). And You’re right, he doesn’t want us to feel like slaves, this is why we have free will. peace :)

[/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

Noxot

anarchist personalist
Supporter
Aug 6, 2007
8,191
2,450
37
dallas, texas
Visit site
✟231,339.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I would say that true freewill is of God and if humans are in sin then they don't have the same kind of free will as God gives to us. because freewill comes from God, evil is lack and ignorance and so true freedom is only with those who are in Christ and in God.
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,202
5,877
✟296,775.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
but people are weak, they have no power to fight the truth

That actually hit me the other way.

You might want to say it like "they have no power to accept the truth"

Because the truth is quite hurtful to anyone who is very much in the world. Most people would rather accept a convenient lie than believe the hard truth. For the same phenomenon is the reason why most people are deceived by deceptive doctrines.
 
Upvote 0

Noxot

anarchist personalist
Supporter
Aug 6, 2007
8,191
2,450
37
dallas, texas
Visit site
✟231,339.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That actually hit me the other way.

You might want to say it like "they have no power to accept the truth"

Because the truth is quite hurtful to anyone who is very much in the world. Most people would rather accept a convenient lie than believe the hard truth. For the same phenomenon is the reason why most people are deceived by deceptive doctrines.

well I think it is true that people have not power to fight the truth because God is truth and if you are not in Christ then you have not power to fight because truth is power but doctrines of men are weak and ineffective against God.

"they have no power to accept the truth", yeah that makes sense too, if they did then they would already have the truth, it is God who gives the truth.

the truth hurts? how so? lies hurt, truth is of healing substance. explain plz.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,202
5,877
✟296,775.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
the truth hurts? how so? lies hurt, truth is of healing substance. explain plz.

If you are quite well versed at the Gospels, you should realize that many, if not, most Christians don't live according to the Truth and is wicked themselves.

I've already tried doing it in person. In most situations I don't speak about the truth or religious matters at all, I simply live and behave as you should if you do the Will of the Father. Not surprisingly, it offended most people I know. If I must enumerate:

- Being easily content with even little things offended other Christians. I was so content to the point, I only shopped when I broke something and couldn't repair it. Give or take, that amounted to 3 years between shopping for things which is usually just a few items and basic necessities, no luxuries!
- Befriending an adulterer to soul-win offended other Christians
- Not partaking, segrating myself from worldly "bonding" activities from other Christians offended them. Many of my relatives don't like me as a result. I've lost most of my friends too!
- To treat my possessions, even my financial future as having no value offended even my Christian relatives. Why would I need to have a lot of money and financial security when I'm spending so little.
-My little to no regard for vanity, pride, etc, offended my Christian friends

Most people I know see me more as an annoyance. It drives them angry when I'm around. I've seen it on occasions.

You wouldn't want to know what happens when I speak. That's when people think I'm evil but all I'm saying is from the Gospels!

Most people will regard the Truth as evil.
 
Upvote 0

Noxot

anarchist personalist
Supporter
Aug 6, 2007
8,191
2,450
37
dallas, texas
Visit site
✟231,339.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
it is good to be hated by the world unless you are acting like a westboro baptist person. there are very different reasons why the world hates them, it is not because they look like jesus. also the christian crusaders deserve to be hated, because they killed in the name of God. however if you are hated for being good and clinging to Christ then that would make a good friend to have.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Phantasman

Newbie
May 12, 2012
4,953
226
Tennessee
✟34,626.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
If love is the ultimate reality, there can be no opposite or equal to it. If God is Love, and God is ultimate reality, then there really exists nothing outside of the boundaries of love.

What of evil, you ask? Huge question. Simple answer. Not easy, but simple. Evil is allowed by God to help us cognize “free will”. Whatever made us would like for us to recognize ourselves as children of God, not slaves. If the duality of good and bad did not exist, we would not perceive the choice between disobedience and obedience. And yet, when we choose to obey God we are hopelessly enslaved by this Greatest of Lovers.

So if love is the ultimate reality, and our goal is to find it, whether it be through purpose or knowledge or revelation, then we find ourselves either in the midst of it, or not.

Are you in or are you out?

Sin is nothing more than an act that is committed out of the ignorance of love. If we follow Jesus two commandments to love God above all and with everything we are, and love all people as we do ourselves, there would be no sin. (think about it).

It is our lack (or ignorance) to love enough, that makes us sin (do evil). If we loved like Jesus taught, we wouldn't murder, lie, cheat, steal, etc. etc. etc. and God would be first above all things.
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,202
5,877
✟296,775.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
it is good to be hated by the world unless you are acting like a westboro baptist person. there are very different reasons why the world hates them, it is not because they look like jesus. also the christian crusaders deserve to be hated, because they killed in the name of God.

I don't actually despise westboro baptists. In many ways, I even see them as being closer to the Truth than the mainstream Christianity.

however if you are hated for being good and clinging to Christ then that would make a good friend to have.
Just trying to be good to the eyes of God. To the eyes of people, they find me unconventional in a negative way.

I used to have many friends. The ones left are my sister and several of my young cousins and their friends (pre-teens). Not surprisingly, I consistently fail to meet the expectations of adults which tend to be worldly expectations and opposes the teachings of Jesus. Children? They dont have much expectations. NO surprise why Jesus said, the Kingdom of Heaven will be filled with little children!

I will not disappoint you if you are either a child or doing the Will of God!
 
Upvote 0

Wagonmaker

Newbie
Nov 14, 2012
198
5
Texas
✟15,351.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
love can be somewhat of an ambiguous word today and although you can say God is love and the reverse that love is God when the latter is emphasized and your definition of love is distorted then your definition of God inherits that distortion.

"Distortions" are unique to individual perception. Each mind participates in error only by degrees. For example, a depraved mind may consider love as a means to signal or derive sexual pleasure. A powerfully calm and focused mind, on the other hand, will have a much broader cognition of the wide spectrum and scope of love.

No solution is available since all human language, English especially, is incapable of conveying absolute truth.

So to me it is important to define love through the context of God and only then God is love and love is God.

The human mind cannot fathom a definition of God, much less put it in discernible signs or symbols. God is most notably defined by scholars and theologians in the negative (i.e., immutable, infinite, etc.)

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here, except to build a case for your next assertion....

In the same way to say love is ultimate reality than again if your definition of love is distorted then ultimate reality turns into deception.

So far, all I have established is that God, Love, and Ultimate Reality are different terms describing the same thing. Any burden of distortion is on the individual mind and has no relevance to the general truth of what I'm trying to convey here.

So these words need to first be defined through God. This works the same with evil as evil inherently is that which is not good.

And here we have the key to your confusion. What is evil? In light of what is good, evil is not good's opposite, since Good is another synonym of God, Love, and Ultimate Reality. Evil, is good distorted. Here we have your initial concern.

The paranoid, depraved, undisciplined mind cannot see God because of distortion, or EVIL.

But what is goodness? God is goodness and goodness is God but just like love goodness is defined through God so then that which is evil is that which goes against God.

Exactly, but is this worth mentioning since it is all self-evident? Do you enjoy hearing yourself talk? I'm just picking on you, but seriously... I don't see what you are contributing to my post.

When these words are defined through God we then approach them correctly.

When anything is defined or approached through the context of God, Good, Love, Peace, Beauty, Light, Ultimate Reality, of course we approach them correctly. Anything less, and we have fallen into Error, Sin, Evil, Ignorance, Distortion, etc.

To do evil is inherently to reject God and to do good is inherently to embrace God.

To do evil is to sin (miss the mark) either out of ignorance or defiance or both, but it does not mean the necessary (inherent) the rejection of God. This goes the same with good in light of God... sometimes we do good because of selfish motives, not because we consciously, willfully embrace God.

To me it is not good enough to say that our ultimate goal in life is to find love as that can lead you down to a corrupted idea of who God is. Instead our goal should be to find God which will ultimately revel to us what love and truth really is.

I agree with you here. If love isn't your thing (which, by the way, it is obvious this is not your strong suit, nor is it mine, so let's call a spade a spade), then it is important to find another path to God, such as the peace that Jesus and the church fathers spoke about, or the beauty of the mystics, or the light that John spoke of, or the moral perfection of other traditions. It all leads to Christ, which is the WAY, no matter how you slice it up.

The goal of man should be to glorify the source of our being, that is God. How do we do that? We follow the trail of his attributes until we find him. Then we realize that all paths lead to "Rome" (I'm not a Catholic, I am using an analogy here).

Best of luck to you. I'll see you in glory.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Wagonmaker

Newbie
Nov 14, 2012
198
5
Texas
✟15,351.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I would not call good and evil a duality because I see evil as the lack of good.

Please do not misquote me, because I use precision to the best of my ability in order to say something of value and benefit to God's people. I appreciate your response, and I am more than happy to admit when I am in error, but there is a distinction between evil and the term "bad" in the context of my thread.

God made everything, and it was good. Evil is an illusion, not the opposite of good. Evil is a distortion of good (refer to Satan's trick in the garden).

Good and bad, however, are generally opposites. This is the duality of our human existence. The physical and mental planes are a duality of good/bad, black/white, gain/loss, etc. so that there is actually something to cognitively experience. If it were not so, we would not be able to have this conversation.

In reality, evil does not exist. All God made was good. The fall, sin, partaking in the knowledge of good and evil (forbidden fruit) is the whole game. As I said, it is an illusion.

I see the true reality which is God and there is no evil in Him. I have tasted a stronger faith than many and now I am the enemy of many for I no longer wish to be wise in my own eyes, though i'm not perfect. those far away do not know God, those who are sons know God more and more. evil can prevail against God as much as the earth can wrestle against it's sun. the earth has no power. evil is the lack of power, because true power is from God. evil is lack of God, but God sustains it and orders its and gives it a purpose, though it will soon be shaken and gone. God will force it to have a use, because God is the master of all things. good will fill evil and it will be no more. evil is not real because God is real, evil is a shadow that fades away, evil was a dream that was quickly forgotten by the children of God, they all woke from slumber.

BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN, BRO. This is exactly right.

but people are weak, they have no power to fight the truth, they only deceive themselves and are deceived that they have a firm grasp on who God is. that is nothing more than pride if you think you get God and yet don't even see your own wickedness in your own hearts and minds. forsake all if you want to taste Christ, nothing matters but God, not your soul and not your mother, it is hard to kick against the goads, you hurt your soul in doing so. you hurt yourself day after day, you slash yourself with sharp stones and yet you are still to this day unaware.

This is the sickness of the ages... and it is all illusion, shadow, a mis-take... sin. The solution is Christ, and Christ alone.
 
Upvote 0

Wagonmaker

Newbie
Nov 14, 2012
198
5
Texas
✟15,351.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']I’m sorry but you’re wrong, the God of Israel didn’t “allow” evil, so that we may know “free will.” The first couple ALWAYS had free will. They could do whatever they wanted in the garden. All that they did would have been good, because there were not supposed to be evil. Evil came because a certain Angel was Jealous of the power, and honor Jehovah God received, he wanted it ,([/font][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Ezek. 28:13-18). Satan brought ALL negative upon earth , Jehovah just allowed it to stay for a while, God never plan on us being “bad” only good. satan had many Angels being humans ONLY will serve Jehovah God IF… they had all they wanted ,(Job 1:8-22, and Job 2:1-7). And You’re right, he doesn’t want us to feel like slaves, this is why we have free will. peace :)

[/font]

First, you and I will differ significantly as we discuss, since as a "Jehovah's witness", you were not baptized in the Trinity of God. That said, I will agree that "God allowing evil" may be a sloppy way to say what I wanted to say. But without the choice, how else would we exercise free will? Peace to you.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Wagonmaker

Newbie
Nov 14, 2012
198
5
Texas
✟15,351.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
That actually hit me the other way.

You might want to say it like "they have no power to accept the truth"

Because the truth is quite hurtful to anyone who is very much in the world. Most people would rather accept a convenient lie than believe the hard truth. For the same phenomenon is the reason why most people are deceived by deceptive doctrines.

What you said is that people prefer deception over acceptance, which is the reason people are deceived by deception. :p
 
Upvote 0

Wagonmaker

Newbie
Nov 14, 2012
198
5
Texas
✟15,351.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
In most situations I don't speak about the truth or religious matters at all, I simply live and behave as you should if you do the Will of the Father. Not surprisingly, it offended most people I know.

I'm going to call b.s. Rarely will a person, believer or otherwise, be offended by good moral behavior.

I can see how you would offend if people around you detect a "holier than thou" attitude. It's not the behavior that would be offensive as much as the motive of the behavior (which is what God looks at clearly, and what people perceive unconsciously).

Most people I know see me more as an annoyance. It drives them angry when I'm around. I've seen it on occasions.

You wouldn't want to know what happens when I speak. That's when people think I'm evil but all I'm saying is from the Gospels!

This speaks volumes about your attitude, motivation, and your integrity. My advice is to go into your closet and get quiet with God for a few days. Otherwise, you are only hurting yourself and others around you, foiling the very gospel you want to espouse.
 
Upvote 0

Wagonmaker

Newbie
Nov 14, 2012
198
5
Texas
✟15,351.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Sin is nothing more than an act that is committed out of the ignorance of love. If we follow Jesus two commandments to love God above all and with everything we are, and love all people as we do ourselves, there would be no sin. (think about it).

It is our lack (or ignorance) to love enough, that makes us sin (do evil). If we loved like Jesus taught, we wouldn't murder, lie, cheat, steal, etc. etc. etc. and God would be first above all things.

Agreed 100%. Further, if love must have an opposite (referring to my previous responses on this thread), I would say it is fear, not hate. Hate is a form of fear. Fear, of course, is ultimately just as much an illusion as evil. God is. And all he made was good. Everything else is a distortion (ignorance).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Wagonmaker

Newbie
Nov 14, 2012
198
5
Texas
✟15,351.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I don't actually despise westboro baptists. In many ways, I even see them as being closer to the Truth than the mainstream Christianity.

Bro, with all due respect, you are in grave error. If you want to improve your relationship with others (a perfect avenue to a closer walk with God) you should repent from the hate in your heart toward other human beings (that you don't even detect at this moment), take stock of your own depraved heart, and open your eyes to the Light and Love of the real Jesus Christ right in front of you.

We all have Pharisee tendencies to one degree or another, but I'm just cautioning you that you may be nothing more than a white-washed sepulchre, pristine on the outside and full of rot and death on the inside.

Sorry so hard on you. I just really get the sense that you could use some correction. I'm more than happy to continue this discussion here or in PM. I want you to experience the joy of the Christian life here on the planet.
 
Upvote 0